The war on drugs

[Pekka]

I mean let's talk about it. I don't have any stats, so I'm coming here without preparing myself. My claim is that this whole thing is nothing but a failure and adding to the problem. It's not helping any, it's doing the exact opposite.

I base my argument on the fact that prohibiting something that people want, and people WANT drugs no matter what you say, you are creating a black market.

When you create black market, the criminals will take over those markets. Ok so the old we're not getting tax money when we could be making profit from this. Yes but that's not it alone.

What you really do is you PUSH the criminals do this market because someone will take over, so they're in this new field and they're making money. It's just like the free market .. you have to be in it or you're losing. SO other criminal gangs who had no business in drugs, or no wish to do so, they are being pushed to do it, because if you miss on that, and others get fat and powerful, you're out soon.

So by creating black market for all kinds of drugs, you effectively push all criminals to it, and as a result, we have drug wars between these gangs, that's the REAL drug violence. It's not because some dude took drugs and got upset and hit someone, that's life. But what is extra, is all that violence from that drug trade. All those criminals taking each other out, taking civilians out, blackmailing, bribery, all that crime comes from that.. that's extra and that's a lot and that's the real violence you have to worry about. There's really no other kind of violence that is a problem.

THen there is the moral problem. Why are they illegal in the first place? Let's face it, no one has the God given right to come and tell me what I can do with my body. As long as I'm doing it to myself, you can't stop me and throw me in jail.. ? I mean you can, but that's because things are screwed up.

[CrONoS]

There is so much hypocrisy and lie about the war on drugs! The fact that pot is illegal and not alcohol, amaze me!

it reminds me that quote from Bill Hicks:
"George Bush says 'we are losing the war on drugs'. Well you know what that implies? There's a war going on, and people on drugs are winning it! Well what does that tell you about drugs? Some smart, creative mother****ers on that side."

- Bill Hicks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSH6o...elated&search=

[Pekka]

Well what people who think it's possible don't realize is that they are insane themselves. That is, how can you stop people wanting drugs? BEcause It's BAAaaaad for you? There's tons of things that are bad for you, so what? Smoking, alcohol, McDonalds, Jesus Camp.... I can go on and on.

SO how can you stop a primal urge of a man? You can't!! The demand will be always there, so there will be supply as well. Good, cut the supply lines, there will be always more, as long as we use money to trade stuff, and as long as we have people who want to get high, we will always have it.

But some people don't admit to this. This shoudl be the premise for the.. basic setting that we have. Yet we have people saying, a lot of them, that this is false. How can you really have a discussion with such people, who are livign in some weird bubble world?

[Aeson]

I would support the legalization of most drugs. With the qualification that for government assistance a person would have to pass a drug screening for relevent drug use, or that the related medical costs would be passed on to the drug manufacturers. Kill yourself, or throw away your livelyhood with whatever chemicals you want, just don't make other people pay for it.

I really don't support the jailing of drug users in any case. Legal or not it's just too expensive and ends up putting dangerous criminals back on the street.

That said, the war on drugs is not a fatalistic thing. It can be "won". Not that drug use or proliferation will ever be completely squashed, but that it can be curtailed. And if we really wanted to stamp out drug use, we could. Just I don't think anyone would much care for the methods involved. That's where the criminal has the advantage, complete disregard for human life.

[Flip McWho]

Waste of resources.

Legalise, regulate and tax

[realpolitic]

Waste of resources? Not from their point of view:

Brings narcodollars into the CIA
Turns rebels and freethinkers into junkies (If it were legal, why would people rebel?)
Maintains a state of fear & control by police

The war on drugs is very successful, but only because it's true purpose is perverse

Even some cops are learning.

[Flip McWho]

Conspiracy theories don't really help the legalise pov.

[Dis]

War on Drugs . We are making progress. It's hard to see the progress (like the war on Iraq), but eventually we will be able to withdraw our troops. Victory is at hand.

[Berzerker]

So by creating black market for all kinds of drugs, you effectively push all criminals to it

and alot of people who aren't criminals.

In the early to mid 80s Reagan and Congress followed by some of the states increased penalties for adult dealers. To avoid the harsher penalties, many adults recruited minors into the drug trade for low level work. The result was an explosion in gang recruitment of minors and an explsion in crime rates involving minors. No child left behind, the drug war probably employs a large chunk of the under 18 population.

[realpolitic]

The only reason they're criminals is their hobby is illegal. How many of us would be criminals if they made playing Civ illegal?

[Jon Miller]

I can easily quit Civ..

JM
(good game.. but it is just a game.. )

[KrazyHorse]

Yeah, I can quit any time I want to.

[Odin]

I remember hearing from a fellow uni student that the reason marijuana was banned was not the drug itself, but because it is a form of hemp, and materials made from hemp fibers competed with the synthetic fibers being marketed by the big chemical companies like Dow.

[KrazyHorse]

OMFG UR SOOOO RGHT

LOL STUPID DOW

[Odin]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
OMFG UR SOOOO RGHT

LOL STUPID DOW

I didn't say if it was correct of not, I just said I heard it, smart@ss.

[DanS]

Some drugs just cannot be tolerated in a society because of the knock-on effects. Crack destroyed whole neighborhoods in DC and you still see amped-up desperate people walking the streets from time to time.

A big argument can be made about mj, but provisionally I'm of the opinion that few enough people use mj that it can be outlawed without too much negative impact on society.

[KrazyHorse]

few enough people use mj

???????????

[DanS]

????????????

[KrazyHorse]

Marijuana is by far the most-used illicit drug.

And it's already outlawed.

What the **** were you trying to say?

[DanS]

What percentage of society use mj on a regular basis? Fact is that few enough people use it that it is practical for it to be outlawed. At least you can throw the dealers in jail.

Too many people drink alcohol for it to be outlawed, even if you wanted to do it. And society has developed in such a way to mitigate some of the nasty knock-on effects of alcohol consumption.

[Jon Miller]

The majority of people I know have tried it.. among people I know who have graduated college most are not habitual users (most don't use at all.. and of those who do, most could count the number of times they used it on one hand, and of those who were frequent users, most are not now).

JM

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS
What percentage of society use mj on a regular basis? Fact is that few enough people use it that it is practical for it to be outlawed.

In any given month ~6% of the age 12+ population uses it. During any given year, that's probably more like 10-15%

[DanS]

Right. The figure that I remember is 5%, but in any event, it's small enough that -- practically speaking -- you can outlaw it (or at least enforce the dealing laws) without throwing half of your population in jail.

[KrazyHorse]

The lifetime use rate for marijuana among the US 12+ population is 36.9%

[Jon Miller]

I would have thought it would be higher...

In my highschool it was greater than 50%.

JM

[DanS]

That number doesn't change the argument.

[KrazyHorse]

Marijuana laws are just strange to me because I have never seen somebody as ****ed up on marijuana as I see people ****ed up on booze every weekend at the bar.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by DanS
That number doesn't change the argument.

I'm just providing the figures for later reference.

And enforcement of marijuana laws (and most drug laws) is a joke.

The chances of:

a) getting caught and

b) having anything serious done to you

because of marijuana are ridicuolously low. They're also completely unevenly enforced (jurisdiction to jurisdiction).

[Jon Miller]

I have seen marijuana have a negative effect. And know MJ addicts that say it has a negative effect.

However, yes, alcohol does negatively effect far more people than MJ.

JM
(a large part of the problem with alcohol is that it is sociably acceptable, and it is socially acceptable to blame your poor choices and actions on the alcohol.. so people use it as an excuse (when it isn't))

[KrazyHorse]

I don't disagree that weed has its negative effects.

But from what I've seen of people smoking weed (and from my very limited experiences with it) it's not really much of a high.