New Theory of Black Holes

[Berzerker]

Actually my theory, I think

Are black holes really black?

No, we cant see them physically because they're so heavy for their size they sink below the visible horizon. Put a bowling ball on a mattress and it sinks down but you can still see the upper part of the ball. But if the ball is heavy enough it will sink down below the horizontal (visible horizon) of the mattress.

But as you approach the ball you can begin to see it because you're now on the curvature of space created by the ball or black hole. Think of a ship caught in a whirlpool, as the ship approaches the center passengers can look down and see the "black hole". Sound reasonable?

[Kuciwalker]

Are black holes really black?

No. They emit Hawking radiation.

Anything else?

[Kuciwalker]

By the way, what the **** are you talking about?

[KrazyHorse]

The event horizon discontinuity exists for any observer O in normal space, no matter how little he is above said event horizon.

What is wrong with your analogy is that in it the bowling ball should actually have sunk an infinite amount into the matress. The depth of the hole asymtotically approaches infinity as you apprach the Schwarzschild radius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarz...zschild_metric

[Ecthy]

KH, I see you're using cryptical physicists talk again to pwn the laymen

[KrazyHorse]

Now, using the schwarzschild metric we will conduct the following gedankenexperiment:

Sitting a distance R from the center of a schwarzschild black hole (non-rotating, stationary in our frame of reference) we fire a beam of light directly away from the center of the black hole. Our metric says that

ds^2 = -c^2(1 - 2GM/(c^2r))dt^2 + (1 - 2GM/(c^2r))^-1dr^2 + r^2domega^2

since the angular displacement is 0 (this is a radial climb) the final term can be ignored. since we are using light, the path element ds is 0.

So, c^2Adt^2 = A^-1dr^2 (A being the messy term involving G above)

so, c*sqrt(A)dt = sqrt(1/A)dr
cdt = dr/A

rewriting slightly we get that the coordinate time for a climb from R>= 2GM/c^2 (the schwarzschild radius/event horizon) to Rf is:

(Rf - R)/c + (2GM/c^3) * INT(1/r) where INT is the definite integral of the expression from (R - 2GM/c^2) to (Rf-2GM/c^2), which equals:

(Rf - R)/c + (2GM/c^3) * ln((Rf-2GM/c^2)/(R - 2GM/c^2))

the closer our original position R gets to 2GM/c^2 the larger the number we're taking the logarithm of gets, so the larger the logarithm gets. Therefore, any beam of light travelling upward from the event horizon R = 2GM/c^2 takes an infinite amount of coordinate time to travel any finite distance, so we can see that the light never gets to any observer, no matter how close they are to the event horizon. (There's one more thing to prove here, namely that the proper time tau for an observer sitting still at any point outside the event horizon does not equal zero for finite coordinate time, but that's enough basic GR for now)

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ecthy
KH, I see you're using cryptical physicists talk again to pwn the laymen

If you found that cryptic then you're incredibly dense. It's not my fault you're too stupid to understand the concepts. Blame God.

[Whaleboy]

No, we cant see them physically because they're so heavy for their size they sink below the visible horizon. Put a bowling ball on a mattress and it sinks down but you can still see the upper part of the ball. But if the ball is heavy enough it will sink down below the horizontal (visible horizon) of the mattress.

But as you approach the ball you can begin to see it because you're now on the curvature of space created by the ball or black hole. Think of a ship caught in a whirlpool, as the ship approaches the center passengers can look down and see the "black hole". Sound reasonable?

If we apply your analogy to current ideas of how a black hole works, your bowling ball will simply drop through the mattress, creating a hole in the duvet of space time.

Which is pretty much exactly what KH is saying, without trying to flaunt my intelligence to an audience that doesn't give a ****.

[KrazyHorse]

You flaunting your intelligence is like a hooker showing off her chastity.

[Whaleboy]

You flaunting your intelligence is like a hooker showing off her chastity.

Teh humour!!!!11!1!!two

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you found that cryptic then you're incredibly dense. It's not my fault you're too stupid to understand the concepts. Blame God.

You know exactly I was talking about your mentioning of that Schwarzschild thing which a layman obviously knows nothing about. But just keep on alling people stupid, it supports my point

[Zoid]

Come on, everybody who´s ever read anything about black holes knows what a Schwarzschild radius is...

[reds4ever]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


If we apply your analogy to current ideas of how a black hole works, your bowling ball will simply drop through the mattress, creating a hole in the duvet of space time.

And land on the moldy bacon butty in n dimension.

[Lorizael]

In mid season form there, eh KH?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Lorizael
In mid season form there, eh KH?

I try.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Ecthy


You know exactly I was talking about your mentioning of that Schwarzschild thing which a layman obviously knows nothing about. But just keep on alling people stupid, it supports my point

I'd like to point out that I went on to explain what the Schwarzschild radius was. With a little bit of patience you would have seen that. My followup post simply took a bit of time to write as I had to integrate a simple, though not tivial expression after rewriting.

[Tattila the Hun]

I'm bloody tired of the neo-racism in astronomy. Why aren't there white holes? White dwarves, sure, small insignificant things. But something huge, powerfull, sure, it needs to be named "black" something. Why not Tyrone, or Darnell, while they're at it? Hmmpuh.

[Lorizael]

Don't forget Red Dwarves... as if our genocide of the Native Americans wasn't enough.

[Hueij]

What I'm wondering about is why Berz left the Babylonians and Atlantis out of his theory.

[Japher]

I was having a good day.

And then I opened this thread.

Thanks.

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Actually my theory, I think

Are black holes really black?

No, we cant see them physically because they're so heavy for their size they sink below the visible horizon. Put a bowling ball on a mattress and it sinks down but you can still see the upper part of the ball. But if the ball is heavy enough it will sink down below the horizontal (visible horizon) of the mattress.

But as you approach the ball you can begin to see it because you're now on the curvature of space created by the ball or black hole. Think of a ship caught in a whirlpool, as the ship approaches the center passengers can look down and see the "black hole". Sound reasonable?

[DrS]

Actually my theory, I think

Are black holes really black?

No, we cant see them physically because they're so heavy for their size they sink below the visible horizon. Put a bowling ball on a mattress and it sinks down but you can still see the upper part of the ball. But if the ball is heavy enough it will sink down below the horizontal (visible horizon) of the mattress.

But as you approach the ball you can begin to see it because you're now on the curvature of space created by the ball or black hole. Think of a ship caught in a whirlpool, as the ship approaches the center passengers can look down and see the "black hole". Sound reasonable?

It's not a bad thought. The problem is that the 'ball on a mattress' analogy is just an analogy. You're taking properties of the analogy and attempting to use them to say something about the original problem. It's similar to a strawman argument.

I'm not sure what happens to space very near a black hole. I don't think anybody can know at present, because big G is almost certainly an approximation of something far more complicated, and yet unknown.

[RGBVideo]

Originally posted by DrS
...

Welcome to Apolyton

Did KrazyHorse bring you here?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by VJ

[DrS]

Nah, I was originally here 8 yrs ago, then I stepped out for 5.

Just poking around to see what's up.

[Lorizael]

You missed the best years of Apolyton. It's all down hill from here.

[Jon Miller]

Where were you at?

Jon Miller

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by DrS
Nah, I was originally here 8 yrs ago, then I stepped out for 5.

Just poking around to see what's up.

That's what they all say :unconvinced:

[Blaupanzer]

I'm glad that KH knows one thing well. Otherwise he'd have no basis whatsoever to criticize people. What would he be like if he studied human relations instead? Do you think he'd sound intelligent enuff in that case to know better than insult an audience filled with people he does not know. Somehow I doubt it.

[KrazyHorse]

I know a number of things quite well, which is more than most human beings can honestly claim.