West point + Heroic Epic?

[yimboli]

Hello!

It seems to me that West Point and Heroic Epic make a powerful national wonder combo. I often build Heroic Epic in my most productive early city in preparation for macemen and knights, and once I get military tradition I throw down West Point and crank out level 3 Cavalry/Cossacks mad fast. But sometimes I find myself without the required level 5 unit.

Is this a popular combo?

I was also wondering if anyone ever builds the Red Cross.

Thanks!

[fani]

I can't think of a reason not to build West point + Heroic Epic in one city that should (of course) have excellent production capabilities...Red cross would probably be placed in my secondary military production city although i usually don't build it at all because by that time the game is essentially over and i usually have all the medic promotions i need...

[yimboli]

Yes, my thoughts are similar on the Red Cross.

Given that Heroic Epic goes with West Point, I once had the idea to group Red Cross with Iron Works - that would make two cities that could crank out units with an extra promition twice as fast. After thinking about it though, since Iron Works isn't only for military units, maybe there is another national wonder that would synergize with it better... globe theater perhaps? that way war weariness would _never_ get in the way of military or wonder production in the most productive city. Any thoughts?

How about other national wonder synergies? West Point + Heroic Epic seems the most obvious, but there could be more I'm not thinking about..

[Son of David]

National Epic + Globe theatre + lots of farmed grassland =

[Blake]

Ironworks is a tricky one. Ironworks will be used primarly for cranking out wonders and SS parts, there are a number of possibilities:
1) Any national wonder which has no real effect in the city, such as Mt. Rushmore or Forbidden Palace.
2) Wall Street. It's a passive effect and goes great with Great Prophets, since both the hammers and gold are boosted. However only do this if you actually have the great prophets and/or a hammer-heavy shrine city. You'll probably plan this out from early on (Wall Street + Heroic Epic works okay too, if you don't plan to get Mil.Trad)
3) National Epic. The Ironworks city usually has heaps of engineers (and wonders) and if you never built the national epic, then building it in the IW city lets you generate mad Great Engineers and plop down yet more wonders, or settle them in the IW city to boost the speed SS parts get constructed. You might want to avoid building artist wonders in the IW city (ie Broadway & friends), Pentagon and 3 gorges are high priority for IW city.
4) Globe Theatre. If you plan to have excessive war-weariness it is useful to have your highest production city immune to it, so it can continue to win wonder races and crank out SS parts at high speed.



The Red Cross should go in a city by itself (or with another NW of no consequence like rushmore or FP), preferably coastal so you get Medic ships. It doesn't need particullary high production if you rely on rushbuy a lot, but it doesn't hurt for it to be able to quickly crank out units.
There is something to be said for Red Cross + Westpoint if you've done something slightly daft with the Heroic Epic city (such as pairing it with Oxfords or Wall Street). Sometimes you just don't get Westpoint until very late. Combining these two nat wonders makes it easy to get powerful march units.

Scotland Yard should also be lonely. It doesn't really need high production since you don't need to train many spies, just rushbuy a new one when an old one dies. Spies are cheap and will actually waste production (due to lost carryover) in the Ironworks city.

[padillah]

What about National Epic + Heroic Epic. I pair them looking for some good GA points.

Tom P.

[Arrian]

I often have the Wall Street + Ironworks combo. I've tried to get away from Wall Street + HE and Ironworks + HE. The latter is somewhat useful, but the reality is that your IW city needs to be building wonders and such, and if it's doing that your HE is then wasted.

HE & WP is one I shoot for. Sometimes getting that 17xp unit takes some time, though.

Oxford + National Epic is one I almost always have, because those two end up in my capital (Oxford b/c my cap will have an Academy and Bureacracy going for it, plus most likely some fully-developed towns and lucrative trade routes).

There is something to be said for Red Cross + Westpoint if you've done something slightly daft with the Heroic Epic city (such as pairing it with Oxfords or Wall Street).

I had that once. It was coastal and yet was pretty solid on hammers. It was indeed the consequence of building the HE and Wall Street in the same city.

-Arrian

[One_more_turn]

Good combos:

Heroic Epic + West Point.

Iron Works + Red Cross.

Oxford + Wall Street.

National Epic + Globe Theater.

[AshenPlanet]

.

I like to pair heroic epic with red cross on a coastal city to make medic ships, infantry, and cavalry.

I put iron works with west point on an inland city with food specials (to go heavy workshops).
I make catapults/artillery and tanks in this city and occasionally use it for a wonder.

.

[Yosho]

If you want to chrun out tons of good millitary units fast, nothing beats heroic epic+ironworks in your #1 production city. Granted that's not ideal for wonders and such, but if you outnumber the enemy, who cares?

It all depends on what your priorities are for the game, of course. I usually just build national wonders where they'll help me the most right now, instead of waiting and trying to create the perfect cities later. For example, I'll often build the national epic in my capital; granted that that means I can't make my capital into wall street+oxford or something like that later, but if it gets me more scientists sooner, that's probably worth more commerce in both the short run and the long run anyway.

[Bkeela]

In the hundreds of games I've played, I've only built the Red Cross a few times. In my rush for the Space Elevator and Apollo Program, Medicine is a fairly irrelevant tech.

West Point is also a rare wonder for me, as I'm not warmonger enough to ever earn a level 5 unit. By the time I do earn such a unit, my army is probably already unstoppable, so the benefits of West Point are kind of moot.

[phlucas]

GT+NE is a nice combination.

IW sometimes goes together with HE or WP in a troup producing city, but more usually I build spaceship parts in the IW city.

I was also wondering if anyone ever builds the Red Cross.

So far, when I got the ability to build the Red Cross, I never was in a position where it would have been necessary for a military win; either my troups were not relying on the promotion when going for domination or diplomacy, or I was pursuing a culture or space win.

[uberfish]

If I build red cross it will go in the Ironworks city for endgame wars. But usually it just comes way too late.

[Yosho]

Yeah...the Red Cross is in that whole catagory of very-late-game warfare stuff that only matters if you turn space race off. It's fun to do that at least once in a while, though; gunships, modern armor, and mech infantry are a lot of fun, but you almost never get to play with them in a normal game.

[yimboli]

Some great tips here. NE + GT sounds like an insanely powerful combo. Especially if you build them in your capital in this savegame... http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=153752

Also, oxford and wall street do sound like a good combo - they are both, after all, rooted in the base commerce.

I do have a couple more questions. This might seem like a thread hijack, but since I started it I feel just fine posing these questions :

1- If I build wall street and oxford in the same city as a religious holy city wonder (temple of solomon, church of nativity, etc.), does the income from the religious wonder count toward the base commerce? In other words, assume I built the temple of solomon in my jewish holy city along with wall street. exactly 10 cities contain jewish followings and the city has 20 gold from tiles. Which is the city's income:
a. 20(base) + 10(solomon) + 100%*20(wallstreet)
-or-
b. 20(base) + 10(solomon) + 100%*(20+10)(wallstreet)

and, similarly, would the income from the spiral minaret count toward the "base"??

Originally posted by Arrian

HE & WP is one I shoot for. Sometimes getting that 17xp unit takes some time, though.

-Arrian

2- I've noticed increased difficulty trying to attain the 17exp unit. Maybe this is post-patch, or maybe it's just cuz I never tried to get west point until after I happened to install the patch. Sometimes, particularly in terra maps (fighting warriors and swordsmen in the new world), I find that my musketmen or riflemen have trouble actually *gaining* experience. They hover around 14 exp and just STOP getting exp... which makes WP that much more FRUSTRATING!

My instinct is that in order for a unit to gain experience, the battle must be somewhat "challenging"... so a musketman will never gain experience from a warrior or archer. But I'm not sure. can anyone provide insight into why a unit would stop gaining experience, even though it's won battle after battle after battle?