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Ranking the Traits- A Discussion on the Relative Strengths of the Civ Traits

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  • Ranking the Traits- A Discussion on the Relative Strengths of the Civ Traits

    With an expansion and a whopping three new civ traits right around the corner, it would be a good time to discuss what we have learned about about the original game's traits.

    One thing I have learned is that there is not a huge gap between the strongest traits and the weakest traits. The developers have made an outstanding effort to balance and fine-tune this game. And there are circumstances where even the bottom-tier traits are more powerful than any. So just because a trait is in the bottom-tier, do not interpret it as being bad. All the traits are good, some are simply slightly stronger than others.

    So without further ado, here is my rankings of the traits, and a brief explanation of my reasons for their place on the chart.

    -edit after considering some of the arguements in the thread, I have adjusted my rankings somewhat. I have moved Organized and Aggressive up and Creative and Expansive down.

    Top Tier
    ---------------------
    1.* Spiritual- There is no other trait in the game that offers you as much sheer power as spiritual does. The ability to switch civics every five turns for free gives you so much flexibility it is almost over-powered. There are an infinite amount of tricks you can use to benefit from spiritual, but here are a few ideas to spur your imagination. You can go into "builder phases" in your cities for a while where you use organized religion's 25% bonus to catch up on infastruture (markets, universities, etc) and then go to theocracy for a while and switch most of your city to building units for some elite troops. Do you need a short-term boost to your capitol's production to finish a key wonder? Go bureaucracy. Need an immediate boost to your army to fend off an enemy invasion? Go nationhood, draft a few troops, then switch back. Need to catch up on some infastructure on a newly captured city? Go slavery. A new tile improvement become unlocked? Go serfdom for a while. Are you in absolute need of a certain great person in the near future? Why not just go caste system or pacifism or both for a while?

    Power, unlimited power! As you can see spiritual gives you an infinite number of options to boost your strength for the current situation. But did you notice the asterisk by the number 1? I put it there because spiritual is only strong if you work to take advantage of it. If you just use it for civic changes that you would normally make with non-spiritual civs, it is a bottom tier trait. But for the sheer ability to impact your chances at winning the game, there is not a stronger trait.

    2. Financial - Others have spoken at length of financial's strength so I won't go into great detail. But the extra commerce early in the game (especially for cities around rivers) is incredibly powerful. Losing cheap banks in 1.61 was unfortunate, but it doesn't diminish this trait from being top tier. It actually is even stronger than spiritual for players who don't work to take advantage of spiritual's subtleties.

    Upper mid-tier
    ----------------------
    3. Philosophical- Philosophical is trait that, like spiritual, is difficult to use to it's fullest extent. However, the extra great people you are awarded give you a great chance to turn the game into your favor. There are a number of ways that philosophcal can be used to great effect such as ultra-early academys or early shrines. But the massive flood of great people from a GP creche city combined with parthenon or pacifism can be overwhelming. If you throw some representation, cheap universities and statue of liberty into the mix, it is unlikely anyone will be able to touch you, scientifically. Philosophical is one of the absolute most powerful traits. It can easily be the most powerful if you can maxmize it's benefits

    4. Organized- At the time of Civ IV's release, this was a trait that was lamented as the weakest in the game. Like a fine wine though, Organized's strength has gotten better with age. I have seen some expert players who have even considered this a top-tier trait. Certainly the financial benefit from this trait can be huge, especially on higher difficulity levels. Moreover, it allows you to run powerful civics like organized religion or police state with near impunity. Vassalage also becomes far more powerful with organized since it still gives you the free units, but now it only costs half as much! Also, organized has probably the best cheap buildings of any trait. Cheap courthouses and lighthouses are incredibly useful. Organized has greatly benefited from recent patches that have increased the costs of certain key civics. It is now widely considered to be a very good civic, and possibly even one of the best.


    Mid-Tier
    --------------------
    5. Aggressive- This is probably the trait that I am most likely to not fully appreciate since I am not as much of a warmonger as some. But even so, I do appreciate what advantages it grants the player. The Combat I for melee and gunpowder units is quite handy. It can really be helpful for waging early axe/sword rushes, especially with the cheap barracks that the trait offers. With a barracks, the trait allows access to some of the key level 2 promotions such as cover, shock, and medic 1. This has it's limits though, and if you are stuck in an isolated position then the trait is of virtually no benefit. But most of the time, it can be incredibly powerful. It is another trait that is even better on higher difficulty levels because of the necessity of waging early war. Overall, it is a great trait.

    6. Creative- There are a lot of benefits to being creative. It certainly makes your early game easier not having to worry about having to rely on religion/obelisks/Stonehenge to generate your culture. The most powerful benefit of creative though is the flexibility it gives you in your city placement and allowing you to obtain the resources that your civ needs to thrive. With creative, you don't have to worry about placing a city in a dodgy spot just to obtain that copper or that ivory. These optimally placed cities with copious luxory/health resources can reap huge benefits over the course of the game, and the culture bonus can actually prove very key in pursuing the cultural victory in the late game, especially with all the modifiers that cathedrals and such buildings provide. All of these factors make creative one of the top traits.

    Bottom-Tier
    -------------------
    7. Expansive- Another trait that has benefited from recent patches. The +2 health in older versions was reasonably useful, but not very exciting. But now the +3 health is something that just can't be ignored, and it is even better on higher difficulties. The huge health bonus allows players to benefit in two ways, they can either expect to have much bigger and faster growing cities than their oponents in the mid game., with the extra commerce/hammers that those big cities provide or they can chop forests with impunity in the early game. Chopping, while nerfed, can still be strategically key for an early rush or for securing an early wonder. Expansive players also benefit from some of the best cheap buildings in the game, possibly second only to organized's. Cheap granaries allow you to grow a huge population fast, and with slavery, can be helpful in getting some quick infastructure. Cheap harbors can help your low-production coastal cities become commerce powerhouses early. All in all, expansive is a very good trait, with a lot to offer any player.

    8. Industrious- If organized is the fine wine that has aged well in player's eyes, then industrious is the sour milk. Before Civ IV was released, when we first heard of the trait that gives a 50% wonder production bonus, we thought it was overpowered beyond belief. Of course, like the old saying goes, generals always try to refight the last war. In Civ III, this trait would have been broken, but in Civ IV it is actually fairly weak. Why? Because wonders themselves have been greatly weakened. The benefits they offer are modest, and typically not game-breaking. There are a couple that might offer advantages strong enough to turn the tide of a game (Pyramids, CS slingshot Oracle, Kremlin) and others that are very helpful (Great Library, Three Gorges Dam, etc), but the truth is that wonders just aren't as powerful as they were in past games. I have seen some lower-level players who consider this to be one of the most powerful traits. It is easy to be deceived since building wonders is just so gosh darn fun, but fun does not always equal to sheer power. And although this is the trait that has the least impact on your chances of winning the game, it is still one of the most fun traits to use. And even though I have ranked it at the bottom, cheap forges are nothing to sneeze at and occassionally those extra wonders and the GP points they provide will turn the tide for you.

    So in summary:
    Top Tier
    ----------
    1. Spiritual
    2. Financial

    Upper-Mid Tier
    ----------------
    3. Philosophical
    4. Organized

    Mid-Tier
    ---------------
    5. Aggressive
    6. Creative

    Bottom Tier
    -------------
    7. Expansive
    8. Industrious
    Last edited by monkspider; July 15, 2006, 15:29.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Good analysis. I would list Organized as top-tier, though.
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    Comment


    • #3
      I say there are no weak traits, just situational traits. Aggressive is only weak as long as you have no use for it. If you do have a use for it, it's an awesome trait. And the bonus is not that you get +10% strength on the units, it's that you can promote with Cover/Shock right as you build the units with Barracks.

      If you're going for a strategy where GPs are the key element, both Philosophical and Industrial are great. Industrial there gives you more wonders, which maybe aren't all awesome in themselves, but which provide a considerable amount of GP points.

      Creative means the power to found your cities much more freely, it means it's easy to settle aggressively, it means that you're going to win the early culture-wars against most enemies.

      To me personally, Expansive is the one that falls to be the weakest, though +3 health is good. I just find that health is generally easier to obtain than happiness, and Expansive is only useful on higher levels that way. Harbors are great, but the funny part is, they're already a very cheap building - the Industrious discount on Forget is more meaningful. The Granary discount is useful, though.
      Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
      Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
      I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

      Comment


      • #4
        As a bonus, here are my early thoughts on the new traits. As a refresher, this what they are right now. Of course, they are subject to change before the final version, blah blah blah.

        Charismatic trait.
        +2 happiness
        25% reduction in the cost of unit promotions.
        double production Broadcast Towers

        Protective trait.
        Artillery and archer have Drill I and Drill II promotions.
        Double production walls and castles


        Imperialistic trait.
        100% increase in Great General emergence
        25% production boost when creating settlers

        The charismatic trait looks very strong, and potentially top tier. +2 happiness AND easier unit upgrades? This looks like a winner to me. Happiness is the major obstacle to growth in the early game, and with easier upgrades charismatic civs should be ensured a place of strength in any game. Hannibal's charismatic/financial combo should be very potent.

        Protective at first glance appears very weak, but when I considered some of the potential benefits later, it looked a little better. Drill 1 and 2 of course leads to the powerful drill 3 and 4 with barracks and vassalage/theocracy. While this is only applied to archers which have a relatively short lifespan, and siege units, the best thing that I could think of about this trait is that those drill IV archers can be upgraded to drill IV riflemen and infantry. Also, while drill IV siege units are of only modest usefulness, a little known fact of Civ IV is that machine guns are actually siege units. So a quick drill IV machine gun will be unbelieveably strong. Cheap castles/walls I am not too crazy about. Even though it has some definite uses, this trait appears to be bottom tier at this point in time, but that may change after I play around with it for a bit.

        Imperialistic is the most difficult to guage since I have no experience with great general units and we still don't know exactly how they are generated. But my hunch is that the extra great generals and the cheaper settlers should make this a strong trait.
        http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Charistmatic I like. Happiness is something you can hardly have too much of. I often find myself in situations where the happy resources I have nearby are Calendar ones. If I don't get a religion, I have a happiness problem. Charistmatic provides the effect of state religion + temple, so I am fine even without a religion, and with a religion, as a Charismatic leader I need not worry about happiness for quite a while. Easier promotions is obviously a good thing, not much to say there. The trait is counter-balanced by the fact that it gets a discount on one of the least used buildings in the game.

          The strength of Protective is similar to that of Aggressive - it's not so much about Drill II itself as it is about the ability to get Drill III or even Drill IV quickly. Just think of what Drill III-IV Crossbowmen can do. Build the Oracle, timing it to get Machinery, and attack with Protective Crossbowmen at once. I think it can be a very strong attacking tactic.

          Imperialistic I'd rather not comment on right now, lest I say something I shouldn't.
          Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
          Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
          I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Solver

            The strength of Protective is similar to that of Aggressive - it's not so much about Drill II itself as it is about the ability to get Drill III or even Drill IV quickly. Just think of what Drill III-IV Crossbowmen can do. Build the Oracle, timing it to get Machinery, and attack with Protective Crossbowmen at once. I think it can be a very strong attacking tactic.
            That's a good tactic I hadn't even considered. Protective may well be a lot better than most people are giving it credit for.
            http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

            Comment


            • #7
              I find that Crossbowmen are similar to Machine Guns in being forgotten, as you said. People forget that Machine Guns are siege units - likewise, when seeing Archery units, people usually think of Longbowmen and Archers. Crossbowmen, though, are a good all-round unit.

              I actually think that if you manage to Oracle your way to Crossbowmen before the AI gets Feudalism, you're in for some very good conquest. I would then promote with Drill III and Cover, and totally kick some AI butt.

              Hey, I should actually go try that the next time I play, I just grew an appreciation for this idea .
              Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
              Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
              I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

              Comment


              • #8
                This would be my ranking:

                1) Organized. While Organized by itself isn't terribly exciting, it's a wonderful passive trait that just sits in the background and helps regardless of what you do - it allows the other trait to truely shine. Organized has powerful synergy with a number of traits and civics, for example the Vassalage+Slavery+Organized Religion warmongering where you can conquer at breakneck speed by whipping in courthouse and missionaries.
                And there's really no question it has the best cheap buildings, I rank the top 4 essential infrastructure buildings as Lighthouse, Granary, Courthouse and Forge. Organized has two of them cheap.

                2) Aggressive. It may not look like much, but once you get used to aggressive it is painful to be without. Aggressive has a double-whammy effect, your units win more often and thus promote more often. I consider non-aggressive civs to be often too luck dependent - when it's axemen vs axemen in the early game, it REALLY helps for your axemen to have shock. It's not just a crutch, it's a crutch you can beat people around the head with and make them submit.

                3) Philosophical. It's a great "Free stuff" trait. Great people are an extremely powerful and cheap way to do all sorts of stuff, especially doing research with minimal expense. Be it saladin style slingshots or alexander/mao style specialist super-science-cities philo can be an extremely strong trait. It works well with any other trait too since the required investment is so low - just a handful of specialists or an early wonder can make philo pay big dividends.

                4) Financial. It is nice to get free commerce, and financial is an absolute top-tier trait on any excessively soggy world where there is an abundance of coast or grasslands. Still, making the most of financial does mandate getting cottages, while organized doesn't mandate doing anything - organized can help in the running of a trade/specialist-fired empire just fine. When you consider that Financial has no cheap building I think that Organized is clearly the stronger money trait.
                Play style is an important consideration - financial is more for the "expand, consolidate, expand, consolidate..." style play, while organized is for "expand expand expand...".

                5) Creative. Like it or loathe it. It definitely does make the game much easier! but I don't think it's so hard in the first place :P. With aggressive play you just settle right next to the best resources and are on the offense so the border expansions aren't too important. Religion can be a cheap source of culture, and you can always just get an Obelisk.

                6) Spiritual. Oh dear. There are times when you'd give your left nut to be spiritual, however these times are mostly in the late game with a large empire and multiple turns of anarchy. And this is the crux of the issue - Spiritual really shines in the late game, but by then the game is usually over. It is a nice trait, but early on it's just too low octane. Where's my explosive growth? Spiritual doesn't provide.

                6 equal) Expansive. It's nice, but it's not nice enough. The problem ultimately is that there is no health problem that cannot be solved by a good lashing and expanding to take more resources. Expansive can be extremely useful, but it can also be extremely lackluster if you have a lot of food/health resources or forest. And cheap granary, while nice, isn't really that valuable since it's only 2 pop to whip. Harbor isn't that useful either - only really needed in larger cities which can afford them at full price. Expansionist can be god's gift to your civ if you get an abundance of happy resources and no health, but it can also be darn near useless in the reverse case. It does synergize quite well with aggressive (cheap barracks+granary for unit pumps), spiritual and creative (good sources of happy to soak up the health), and it's great on ocean maps especially as Victoria. It isn't a solid performer - but when it does perform it can rank a lot higher.

                8) Industrious. It stinks and to me the main selling point is that you can build wonders then lose them to get the refund, thus powering your research. Make a good trait that does not. Still, the cheap forges are nice, I'm not going to argue against that. Still forges don't help pop rush and I'd frankly rather a cheap courthouse which can be insta-pop rushed in.
                There is a play style factor, but I think most agree that wonders are quite the low octane investments.
                One problem with Industrious is the +50% is only additive. Anyone with the +100% resource has a fair shot at the wonder. The balance is such that +50% is “not quite enough” while +100% is “enough” to make wonders good builds, +150% is just overkill.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Solver
                  The strength of Protective is similar to that of Aggressive - it's not so much about Drill II itself as it is about the ability to get Drill III or even Drill IV quickly. Just think of what Drill III-IV Crossbowmen can do. Build the Oracle, timing it to get Machinery, and attack with Protective Crossbowmen at once. I think it can be a very strong attacking tactic.


                  In other words it's a trait that works well only for a particular, narrow kind of strategy at one particular period in the game?

                  I rarely ever build the Oracle in my Prince games, even the ones that I win comfortably. I hate relying on same-old strategies to win.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Why so? I just mentioned one strategy that seemed particularly good to me, under Protective. It's possible to come up with one strategy for each trait, I was in no way saying that's all it's good for.
                    Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
                    Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
                    I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Top tier (in no particular order):

                      Agg (unlocks so many good promotions out of the barracks)
                      Fin (more cash)
                      Org (more cash)
                      Phi (if you can stand the specialist micromanagement)
                      Spi (flip between situational civics at will)

                      Lower tier:

                      Cre (nice to have early, fades into uselessness late game)
                      Ind (nice to have early, fades into uselessness late game)
                      Exp (extremely hit and miss as to whether it's useful early game)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by monkspider
                        Protective trait.
                        Artillery and archer have Drill I and Drill II promotions.
                        Double production walls and castles
                        I would boost this trait by extending the double production bonus to Bunkers (which reduce damage to buildings and population from air attacks) and Bomb Shelters (which do the same for nuke attacks) as well.

                        Imperialistic trait.
                        100% increase in Great General emergence
                        25% production boost when creating settlers
                        Since Imperialism is all about spreading your empire far and wide, I would extend the 25% production bonus to building Workers as well.
                        Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Good list Blake! I think that perhaps I underrated Aggressive on my list, but as I said above, it is probably the one trait I don't full appreciate. You make an excellent point about it's "double whammy" effect that I hadn't considered before.

                          The reason I didn't put organized as high on my own list is that many of the most commonly used civics are low upkeep (emancipation, hereditary rule, slavery, free speech). In the past I think you have made the case that with organized you don't even really need to build wonders because it's such a great support to any strategy, I think that is a really interesting perspective. In any event, I think it's great that a trait that was once so hated is now so popular.
                          http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Solver
                            The strength of Protective is similar to that of Aggressive - it's not so much about Drill II itself as it is about the ability to get Drill III or even Drill IV quickly. Just think of what Drill III-IV Crossbowmen can do. Build the Oracle, timing it to get Machinery, and attack with Protective Crossbowmen at once. I think it can be a very strong attacking tactic.
                            Cho-Ku-Nu, anyone?

                            I think I will run a couple of experiments with one of the Chinese leaders later.
                            (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                            (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                            (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Blake
                              There is a play style factor, but I think most agree that wonders are quite the low octane investments.
                              I am not sure about that. Sure, Wonders have been reduced in power considerably, but as Solver pointed out, it's all situational. If you play Qin, having the Parthenon is awesome.

                              Originally posted by Blake
                              One problem with Industrious is the +50% is only additive. Anyone with the +100% resource has a fair shot at the wonder. The balance is such that +50% is “not quite enough” while +100% is “enough” to make wonders good builds, +150% is just overkill.
                              It allows you to edge out your competitors who also have access to the +100% specials. You can start later to the CS Slingshot and still win the race. It also gives you a very good shot at the Pyramids, which is one of the best Wonders.
                              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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