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[Straybow]

Mine the hidden silk S of Susa after building a fort on the tile. 2 birds with one stone, yes?

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Straybow
Mine the hidden silk S of Susa after building a fort on the tile. 2 birds with one stone, yes?

[68,30]?? Yes, if a road is done between. Faster to road while still grass, yes??

[71,29] will also need a Fort.

Monk

[Scouse Gits]

'Inner Dalek' and now 'Bloody Luddite' - I resemble these remarks!

Stu

[StuporMan]

Well, my turnset is over, it is mostly uneventful as I was setting up infrastructure, but here is the log and sav anyway.

Log:
50: Change all production to Crusaders and triremes, taxes raised to aid war effort, I predict a conquest victory by 1000 AD.
I suddenly remeber I am not Stu and reset production back to normal.
Take a break to play Risk to appease my inner Dalek.
I leave taxes as they are, since delivery next turn should fill beakers.

25: Deliver Silk to Athens 264g,
Rush 4 vans for HG, and several Warriors for Disorder.
Again I am broke .
Reset Taxes to Science.

1AD: Astronomy -> Medicine.
Hides to Athens 208g.
A few more warriors rushed.
Saviour born.

20: Canal rushes its last van commodity.
Van rushed in SSC,
one last warrior rushed.
Invading Barbs destroyed by horse. Not worth risk for 100g since SSC not on river.

40: HG one turn build in Arbela.
Partial rush van in Persepolis (for copper delivery once rehomed).
Two hides vans from Arbela moving to Parsagade for delivery to Athens.

60: HG in Arbela,
Give techs to Mongol for tech cost reduction, share maps.
French: give techs to share maps (they were hostile and researching maps, I wanted to reset tech goals).
Nearly all cities now producing settlers.
Change citizen in Arbela to Scientist to cause celebration.

80: Aztecs Discover Banking with a cry of "Jesus Saves!", now researching Mysticism.
From last tech list we will not be able to research towards sanitation next turn,
trade Aztecs for Construction,
give techs to give them Mysticism (their new tech goal),
am forced to give them Astronomy (vs Monotheism),
share maps.
French new research goal is University(!) hopefully they can get it quickly (2 hides vans en route to Athens should complete any tech we are researching).

100: Medicine -> Engineering,
Copper in Persepolis,
Everyone but Celts, French, and ourselves are republic (Celts lack the tech, French haven't revolted yet).
Salt rehomed in Arbela.

120: Snoozer Turn, incremental rush with small funds. Do some food/shield micro.

140: Celts want to talk, they recently started war with the French, so I abstain (no good could happen).
Zulus learn to Bank (doh! I should have traded earlier and gifted this to them, we could have got another free tech,
I wanted to avoid tech carrying costs and didn't think the 2 city civ could generate a tech that fast),
Gift a few techs to Greeks to ensure safety of hides vans.
More IRB.

160: 4 Settlers completed,
2 hides vans ready to be delivered to Athens,
2 headed to (or in) Pasargadae ready to head to the Aztecs (huge cities = huge bonus for demanded goods Salt and Copper).
Aztecs also have Bridges, so this may be a worthwhile trade in a few turns.

The next player also might consider gifting Astronomy to the Zulus and Greeks who a researching it (to get a useful tech). I left the settlers unmoved so as to let the next player decide how best to use them.

So not a stellar turnset, but not too bad in the scheme of things. Settlers should help the player after next get some good commodity delivery action going on. Next player may also want to save up vans for Copes, Mikes, Shakes, etc. I would recommend Mikes first (over Copes) to get us in Republic faster for growth. I probably should have saved the hides vans for this purpose, but I did not want trade/science to stagnate (That and we get over 200g per delivery which allows for more than one Van IRB). That and we are hurting for income.

So, who is up next?

StuporMan

[Bloody Monk]

StuporMan,

Excellent turnset and I loved the log. Laughed out loud at 1AD!!

Several AI are building WOW and hopefully they will not switch to Cope's, but that gives another reason for us to build it next...AND it will pop our Science. After Cope's, build Shakes so the SSC can grow, then Mike's for other cities.

I suggest this order to give a little time for doing the irrigation and road work to prepare for Republic. Along this line of thinking, we need to trade for Seafaring, and Bridge. Harbors are a quick substitute for irragation to allow WeLove growth to continue. (And always give Republic to everyone , yesterday.)

I understand your choices and agree mostly. I would build boats at Gordium and Tyre, for example, and build a Dip for exploration. Also, I think getting a second route, at least, from SSC to Zim is a priority. But, accumulating the 20 vans for 3WOW's is THE priority. Several vans for delivery--to finance Aqua and Sewer--will be needed, too.

And, let's not forget the Az for delivery. Their city size will pay off better than Athens for demanded goods. Thus, the 'build more boats' idea.

Forgot to add...work the Scientist in SSC on river-trees and up Lux to 10%. Science stays at 9 turns, SSC get +1 food and +1 arrow for routes.

You say your turns were not "stellar", but I disagree. You set things up very well for future development.

Okay, who wants the game over the weekend??

Monk

[StuporMan]

Thanks Bloody Monk for the kind words,

I would have to disagree slightly with your WOW order. I would recommend moving Mikes ahead of Shakes. The reason being is that we need Republic in order to grow the SSC, and Mikes should allow growth up to 12 without the need for Shakes (if my math is not incorrect). The only issue being whether or not we can get the irrigation, roads, and harbors in place to support republic in time. Actually, the way things are going we might be able to skip Republic and go straight to Democracy, as terrain improvements may take more time than getting some quick techs through deliveries.

As to Bridges and Seafaring, I was avoiding these carrying costs these turnsets as it was going to be a bit too soon for them to be of use. Bridges are only useful when you have active settlers that need to road rivers. Likewise, harbors are only (truely) useful in a Republic/Democracy for continued growth. Bridges should probably be traded early in the next turnset, Seafaring a bit later when the switch to Republic is more imminent. No sense in paying for those harbors until we can use them to grow our cities!

As to trading with the Aztecs, There are now 2 vans prepped and ready for delivery to them. Salt and Copper are waiting at or near Pasargadae for delivery, I would have built ships if we didn't need Settlers and Vans a whole lot more this last set of turns (we had 0 settlers at the start of this turnset). I figured the hides deliveries could fund the fleet, along with a few of the WOW vans.

At this point I am wondering if we shouldn't switch to 70% taxes to get fleet/infrastructure/WOW vans going and use some deliveries to keep science going. We really have no immediate tech needs we cannot trade for, and delaying could yeild us some free techs from other civs.

I guess my turnset was not as bad as I thought. I always tend to be overcritical and second guess myself. I do regret that I did not acquire and trade banking with the Zulus, that is a possible free tech opportunity lost. But I guess there was no way for me to guess they were that close to a discovery. I also wonder if I could have built 2 WOWs this turnset if I had played differently, I guess it is too late to worry about that now.

StuporMan

[Scouse Gits]

Looks very good to me - pity you backed off from your first instinct

Stu

[Elephant]

Originally posted by StuporMan

1AD: Astronomy -> Medicine.
Saviour born.

Too bad we don't have this smilie...



Someone should make an extra note when the Council of Nicea rolls around...

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by StuporMan
Thanks Bloody Monk for the kind words,

I would have to disagree slightly with your WOW order. I would recommend moving Mikes ahead of Shakes. The reason being is that we need Republic in order to grow the SSC, and Mikes should allow growth up to 12 without the need for Shakes (if my math is not incorrect). The only issue being whether or not we can get the irrigation, roads, and harbors in place to support republic in time.

Actually, SSC can support 12 w/o any irrigation, especially if it had another milunit. But, I don't think Republic makes sense any time soon. It will kill the new cities. They won't support their units. Thus, getting Shakes first will allow the SSC to grow while the other cities 'mature'. This will bump its trade routes and make deliveries payoff better.

Actually, the way things are going we might be able to skip Republic and go straight to Democracy, as terrain improvements may take more time than getting some quick techs through deliveries.

Methinks you forget that Democracy will not allow our trading fleet to go to sea until Galleons are available. Whereas, in Republic, each city can have one boat out of the city. Now if the SSC had been built as a port city...

Actually, I think that going back to Monarchy, after SSC gets to ~21 may be sensible. Depends on how long before Magnetism is in hand. I assume we will build Leo's so that the fleet upgrades then. Related to this, I wouldn't disband warriors as they will be needed if Monarchy returns. Also, Leo's will turn them into Rifles, which means that when it comes time to build spaceship parts, these 10 shield units will give a 20 shield jumpstart. doubleplus

As to Bridges and Seafaring, I was avoiding these carrying costs these turnsets as it was going to be a bit too soon for them to be of use.

Yup, completely agree. We absolutely want Sanitation ASAP. That mention was not in relation to your turnset. Just keeping the idea up front. Same with boats -v- Settlers. Cities need to get Setts first so they can regrow quicker.

About research, lets keep in mind that getting either Navigation or Invention will cut delivery bonuses (cash and Science) in half. So getting the other early on-path techs first would help speed things along.

At this point I am wondering if we shouldn't switch to 70% taxes to get fleet/infrastructure/WOW vans going and use some deliveries to keep science going. We really have no immediate tech needs we cannot trade for, and delaying could yeild us some free techs from other civs.
StuporMan

A switch now would make a 25g difference, one line of rushbuild, but push research from 9 to 20 turns. It would also slow AI research (received wisdom is that they match our pace at this stage of the game). We want the Fr to get Univ for us so this may not work out.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

@ Next Player,

I've looked over our recent tech aquisitions (research and trade) and advise no tech trades until Engineering is finished. Sanitation will be offered next, but not if we add another tech by trade (or hut). StuporMan has things well and rightly set up.

Then, after Sani, University and Th. Grav will be nice. Hopefully, the French will discover University for us.

So, who will be next??

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

OK guys, no one else has stepped up, so I'll take this.

Be warned though, I'll play it my way.

RJM

[Bloody Monk]

Wonderful!!

Curious warning though. Everyone plays it "their way", after all.

Have fun!!

Monk

[fed1943]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Wonderful!!

Curious warning though. Everyone plays it "their way", after all.

Have fun!!

Monk

That's the point and perhaps the true reason I never played sucession.

I would feel well if I jump into a game people are played and play my way. And it wouldn't be fun to play against my way.

Best regards,

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Wonderful!!

Curious warning though. Everyone plays it "their way", after all.

Have fun!!

Monk

Well yes, but my natural style of play for an early landing seems a long way from the majority of players who have participated so far. For example, you raise the possibility of reverting to monarchy after growing the SSC. But even a celebrating SSC in monarchy produces less beakers than in republic. OK, the van delivery bonus is the same, so perhaps that doesn't matter too much. For myself, I'd want to prepare for democracy as soon as possible.

Anyway, having looked at the save, I think I'm going to change the build in most cities. I want an early republic, so I'm thinking of temples everywhere. I'll probably disband a lot of warriors once we revolt. I need to develop the land around Arbella - that will be the first job of our 4 settlers (although it will take forever for them to arrive). I think another galley would be nice too. After that, lots of food vans to build wonders.

Anyway, that's the plan. If anyone wants to talk me out of it, they have a couple of hours.

RJM

[rjmatsleepers]

Strategy: I'd like to revolt in AD 200, but Arbella is so poorly developed that I don't think that's on. So I'll aim to revolt to republic in AD 280 and then start celebrating Arbella. Therefore I'll move the settlers to develop Arbella and build temples in supporting cities

AD 160 Hides (d) Arbella->Athens (312); rush van in Arbella, Tyre; switch to trireme in Canal; part rush a few vans elsewhere. Engineering->Sanitation
AD 180 Swap mono for bridge building; Hides (d) Arbella->Athens (312); rush van in Arbella
AD 200 Rush van in Arbella; rehome van in Arbella
AD 220 Barb landing near Canal; move ele from Susa to deal with it.
AD 240 Sanitation->Banking
AD 260 swap with Zulus for banking; Mogols complete SWA and switch to KRC
AD 280 revolt;
AD 300 Persian republic established; begin celebrating Arbella;
AD 320 Copper (d) Arbella->Tenochtitlan (373); salt (d) Arbella->Teotihuacan (373); rush build Aqueduct in Arbella; swap with French for university; Invention->Theory of Gravity
AD 340 Rush van in Arbella;
AD 360 Hides (d) Arbella->Athens (192)x2; rush van in Arbella

There are vans approaching Arbella for a choice of wonders (I'd go for Shakes) and (I think) enough money to rush a sewer system and a university. I've avoided giving anyone astronomy until I have Copes in sight. There are quite a few vans for delivery in Athens that should keep us solvent for a while.

That's my attempt to nudge this game forward; good luck to the next player.

RJM

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

For example, you raise the possibility of reverting to monarchy after growing the SSC. But even a celebrating SSC in monarchy produces less beakers than in republic.

RJM

Sorry, my friend, but this is just plain wrong. The Sticky Mouse Institute awaits your presence. There perhaps you will contemplate the consequences of a strategy built on false assumptions.

Even the dreaded Manual has this one right. A celebrating Monarchy gets the same extra arrows a Republic gets.

If you think I'm wrong, open in cheat mode and force the Gov't back to Monarchy. The SSC actually has more total arrows!! While there notice that in Monarchy, four more cities can hire a Settler ( 5 if Susa does a second). That's a doubling of the current compliment. And the lack of Fortress at Susa means the back door is still open for Zu perfidity.

In baking a cake, it is usually helpful to sift the flour before adding the milk. Sequence matters. If your "natural style of play" is different then so might your cake come out differently. There is a reason most folk came to the conclusion that an early Republic was an iffy proposition. [Oh, well. God forfend anyone learning (or trying) anything new.]

The beauty of Civ2 is that any situation can be fun to figure out. And in the end all will work itself out. What's a half millennium among friends, right. [mostly, just kidding]

Who wants to work out the kinks in an early Republic?? You'll get to build lots of movie-worthy WOW's I bet.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by fed1943

That's the point and perhaps the true reason I never played sucession.

I would feel well if I jump into a game people are played and play my way. And it wouldn't be fun to play against my way.

Best regards,

Thanks for the comment, fed. I think I know what you mean. I lurked around for 6 months in Succession Games before I joined in one. I wanted to figure out how folk were doing things and even though I had been playing for years, I was finding so much that was new to me. And the players were so helpful answering my questions.

Anyway, what I learned is that there are so many ways to play this game and none of them are wrong (especially if you are having fun). Knowing different ways of doing things is like a golfer who uses different clubs from his bag depending on the situation. If you want, hang with us for a while and please jump in with any questions or comments you might have.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Sorry, my friend, but this is just plain wrong. The Sticky Mouse Institute awaits your presence. There perhaps you will contemplate the consequences of a strategy built on false assumptions.

Even the dreaded Manual has this one right. A celebrating Monarchy gets the same extra arrows a Republic gets.

If you think I'm wrong, open in cheat mode and force the Gov't back to Monarchy. The SSC actually has more total arrows!! While there notice that in Monarchy, four more cities can hire a Settler ( 5 if Susa does a second). That's a doubling of the current compliment. And the lack of Fortress at Susa means the back door is still open for Zu perfidity.

In baking a cake, it is usually helpful to sift the flour before adding the milk. Sequence matters. If your "natural style of play" is different then so might your cake come out differently. There is a reason most folk came to the conclusion that an early Republic was an iffy proposition. [Oh, well. God forfend anyone learning (or trying) anything new.]

The beauty of Civ2 is that any situation can be fun to figure out. And in the end all will work itself out. What's a half millennium among friends, right. [mostly, just kidding]

Who wants to work out the kinks in an early Republic?? You'll get to build lots of movie-worthy WOW's I bet.

Monk

My reasoning was that a celebrating monarchy gets the same trade arrows as a republic, but the maximum research rate is lower so the celebrating monarchy gets less beakers . I guess its pack my tooth brush and off to the institute.

RJM

[Straybow]

I don't recall if corruption is lower under Rep than under Mon, or vice versa, or the same. That could make a difference for arrows.

Rep does let you move the slider up 10% higher, but unless you have Temples, Mkts, and other improvements to maintain happiness you will require more Lux, and then can't take advantage of the raised maximum.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Straybow
I don't recall if corruption is lower under Rep than under Mon, or vice versa, or the same. That could make a difference for arrows.

Rep does let you move the slider up 10% higher, but unless you have Temples, Mkts, and other improvements to maintain happiness you will require more Lux, and then can't take advantage of the raised maximum.

Good points, Straybow.

To restate: in order to enjoy the benifits of Republic, including a lower rate of corruption, the foundation must first be laid.

As well it is good to review solo's Guide as to choosing city sites. He notes that a site that will require little or no improvement to grow is preferred over, for example, a site surrounded by trees with little or no natural tiles to work. Much time will be lost making them able to grow or they will forever be dirtholes. And time is the most important element in an EARLY Landing Game.

But such is the nature of Succession Games where there is a wonderful opportunity to think about things differently.

Who's next??

Monk

[Elephant]

What seems to be different here in the usual calculus of Celebrating Monarchy is that we really only care about the SSC, which has HG helping it along so needs less Lux. I also read RJM's earlier message as focussing on beakers and max government research percentage, not arrows. Always worth doing the math or testing things both ways before committing the game...

[-Jrabbit]

Hi guys. Nice to see a game on.

[Straybow]

Nyaaaah, what's up, doc?

[atomant]

A rabbit sighting.... do you want to play a game...

[-Jrabbit]

Looks like this one is 2.42.
I'm not compatible.

[atomant]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
Looks like this one is 2.42.
I'm not compatible.

Don't worry you will be assimulated

[Bloody Monk]

Nice to see the rabbitty one again. Hope your new venture has been thriving.

Game is lagging a bit. Perhaps folk are stumpted as to what to do with this early Republic thingy. Some advice from its founder might be useful as to how to proceed.

Someone be brave and jump in.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Nice to see the rabbitty one again. Hope your new venture has been thriving.

Game is lagging a bit. Perhaps folk are stumpted as to what to do with this early Republic thingy. Some advice from its founder might be useful as to how to proceed.

Someone be brave and jump in.

Monk

Assuming you mean me, I don't see any serious problems to cope with. Our SSC is celebrating and will continue to grow for the time being. We have money to buy the necesssary infrastructure (a sewer system and a university) and there are vans available to build a wonder. I would build Shakes and let the SSC celebrate up to maximum size. (It can be done without Shakes, but it is a lot easier with it. A market would also help, but is not essential.)

There is a little work to do irrigating and roading the environment, but there are 4 settlers to deal with this. We can rush build hides and deliver them for a profit (ie more than it costs to rush them). I'd rush a hides van as often as I could. For the moment I'd be inclined to let the other cities build vans for wonders - there will be a couple more needed in Arbela fairly soon. We will probably need a few colosseums (colossia?) in some of the cities in due course, but again it's not urgent.

I'd gift techs to the AI to maintain good relations and guide their research, except that I'm inclined not to gift Astronomy until we have secured Copes. There is always a potential problem from barbs, so I'd go for a diplomat or two to protect our cities.

Once Arbela has been irrigated and roaded, we can build the roads to link our cites. I would eventualy use one of the settlers to found a city. That would give us 12 cities which is enough to build the space ship in 2 turns. I would research towards magnetism so that we can build galleons to transport our vans. This would allow us to move to democracy which would eliminate the corruption and set science at 100%.

That's what I'd do, but no doubt there are other ways of going forward.

RJM

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, RJ. I was hopeful that advancing the discussion would be useful. Excellent plan. I especially underscore the 'don't give Astronomy' until we finish Cope's.

So now we have a workable plan. Further comments??

Next??

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

One key in gifting is to go ahead and hand out Astro, but only when you know you can build Cope's in 1 turn.

Basically, I'm with RJM.