Free Drones: the most powerful faction?

[Lazerus]

About Zak beating Lal: if Zak doesn't get VW he is screwed. That is a HUGE weakness.

Because of a few extra drones ? granted it slows him down alot but its hardly game threatening for serious Uni players. Chances are with zak getting the techs first that he will wrap up the VW in most games anyways.

[CEO Aaron]

Well, that depends on what you're trying to prove, exactly.

[Lazerus]

And if players see one particular faction as a big enough threat to constantly remove it early
You also have the factor that just because you have a brilliant Uni player doesn't mean he's going to get the best out of the aliens ...

[Senethro]

Some factions are also clearly soloists and others synergists. A dual ICS Hive and Morgan was one of the most evil things I've ever seen, being more than twice as strong as just Morgan or just the Hive.

In comparison, the Uni are probably soloists as the last thing they want is to let their tech advantage get spread about. This is probably why everyone goes after them first in a PBEM...

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Frankychan
Why Pirates as a weak faction? They aren't that bad.

Santiago's gun-toting freaks? Heck yeah, I'd rank them at the bottom.

At least with the Pirates you get a head start on all the seapods. I like being the first faction that has massive creds and free techs.

pirates are not weak AT ALL, I don't know where that idea comes from, depending on pod pops, they can range from the 4th best to the absolute best, no question, even if you hit a "lot" of IoD's , the vast majority of your pod effects are going to be positive or at least neurtal, let's take a look:

positive:
credits
comlink
datapod
AA
instabuild
clone
unity rover
unity foil

neutral:
sea kelp (depending on location)
monollith (depending on location, never happens at sea)
resources (depending on location, never happens at sea)
sonar pod
tidal wave

negative:
IoD
xenofunugs bloom (never happnes at sea)

Plus, once you establish a base on your contient of choice, you no longer need to keep the transport around to get to mainland, can use it to pop pods

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Way to interpret perfectly reasoned rebuttal as hostile. If you're disturbed by someone disagreeing with you, I recommend unplugging your internet connection.

Way to ignore the actual point I made!

Once you've built base facilities you get more bang for the buck growing two extra pop than somebody else gets starting a new base. Once you've grown the two extra pop you can expand just as any other faction can at the base size limit.

So the advantage isn't just the base limits, it is pre-hab base size.

About Zak beating Lal: if Zak doesn't get VM he is screwed. That is a HUGE weakness.

how is he screwed? He just has to build rec commons like everyone else, big deal

[Senethro]

Originally posted by dmm1285


pirates are not weak AT ALL, I don't know where that idea comes from, depending on pod pops, they can range from the 4th best to the absolute best, no question, even if you hit a "lot" of IoD's , the vast majority of your pod effects are going to be positive or at least neurtal, let's take a look:

positive:
credits
comlink
datapod
AA
instabuild
clone
unity rover
unity foil

neutral:
sea kelp (depending on location)
monollith (depending on location, never happens at sea)
resources (depending on location, never happens at sea)
sonar pod
tidal wave

negative:
IoD
xenofunugs bloom (never happnes at sea)

Plus, once you establish a base on your contient of choice, you no longer need to keep the transport around to get to mainland, can use it to pop pods

I'm sorry, but the pirates are certainly among the weakest factions. Sea terraformers and colony pods are too expensive, sea improvements take too long to build, and you feel a distinct lack of minerals when you need transports to move land terraformers/CPs about. Oh, and they can't pop-boom easily either.

If you think you can prove me wrong we could play some single player comparison games where I pick a good Free Drones start, you pick a good Pirates start and we each play both games to 2200.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Senethro


I'm sorry, but the pirates are certainly among the weakest factions. Sea terraformers and colony pods are too expensive, sea improvements take too long to build, and you feel a distinct lack of minerals when you need transports to move land terraformers/CPs about. Oh, and they can't pop-boom easily either.

If you think you can prove me wrong we could play some single player comparison games where I pick a good Free Drones start, you pick a good Pirates start and we each play both games to 2200.

There's your number one prob, you hit land ASAP, I don't build any sea formers/cpods/improvements ever with the pirates. The transport thing isnt an issue:like I said, once you hit land, you don't need transports to move things to land, if you have any unit (I've used AA's) on the landmass adjacent to the sea base, you are allowed to land on that sqaure. Popbooming is their only real weakness. I'd be happy to play a pirates game, In fact I'll upload one right now I abandoned becasue I got too far ahead, had an exceptional start though (monsoon, two mineral resources

[Senethro]

Yeah, the monsoon jungle really does invalidate it for use in a comparison.

But if you don't use their sea related bonuses then what good are the pirates? If you play them like a land faction then all they have are penalties on the SE table.

[dmm1285]

Originally posted by Senethro
Yeah, the monsoon jungle really does invalidate it for use in a comparison.

But if you don't use their sea related bonuses then what good are the pirates? If you play them like a land faction then all they have are penalties on the SE table.

1) your first 2 bases get free recycling tanks, this a huge and often overlooked advantage

2) early sea pod popping, I cannot stress how big an advantage this is, with any other faction my earliest SP is in the 30's at best (2125 I think with Uni once). On the other hand, I normally build the WP around 2119-2121 with the pirates, and that's nothing special.

3) You say monsoon invalidates, and in a way it does, but the pirates get monsoon more than any other faction, that's a minor thing though since I dont usually play jugnle tarts regarless of the faction

[CEO Aaron]

The rec tanks just mitigate the increased cost of your early foils, pods and transports. Sea pod popping is a hobby any faction who grabs Doctrine Flexibility can indulge in. The sea terraforming improvements are decidedly weak, from a former-time to production standpoint, until you can uncap resource collection. And your assertion that in order to avoid those problems you need to make landfall begs the question of why didn't just pick a landward faction to begin with.

I'll admit that they're unlikely to have to repel a serious incursion into your territory until mid-late game, thanks to their seaborne existence, but Pirates will still never get a good swipe at the early SPs, and languish with inferior infrastructure until they can steal Environmental Economics from an actual builder faction.

Hey, I could be wrong, Pirates could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but until someone posts some saves and strats that show their power, I'll continue to consider them a punk faction.

[dmm1285]

I played again last night, this time got a an average starting position, right next to the garland crater (who I later found out has an unhappy univeristy nearby). Quckly got the comlinks for Morgan aand Sparta. Then, I got 2 AA's and build the WP in 2117, somewhat earlier than usual for me (I actually used my base's 10 starting minerals for the project ) It's now 2131 I am using knight psacing for my bases and getting my condesers up nicely. Next year, I discover IA (I think). I don't know if it would still be around in a MP game this late. On the other hand, between HGP, VW, and PTS, it would be unluikely that a 3 would be built. Also, I plan on getting crawlers for my condensers, then heading for ethCalc for some GA popbooming. ILike an idiot I placed red sky on an energy bonues, I'll probablly rush abaandon it/ We'll see how it goes, but there's no way I can see the Free Drones being ahead at this point, then again their power comes later so we will see. I actually think the Univ could be leading me with a shrewd human, so scratch where I said absolute best, but second beast I would say.

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
The rec tanks just mitigate the increased cost of your early foils, pods and transports. Sea pod popping is a hobby any faction who grabs Doctrine Flexibility can indulge in. The sea terraforming improvements are decidedly weak, from a former-time to production standpoint, until you can uncap resource collection. And your assertion that in order to avoid those problems you need to make landfall begs the question of why didn't just pick a landward faction to begin with.

I'll admit that they're unlikely to have to repel a serious incursion into your territory until mid-late game, thanks to their seaborne existence, but Pirates will still never get a good swipe at the early SPs, and languish with inferior infrastructure until they can steal Environmental Economics from an actual builder faction.

Hey, I could be wrong, Pirates could be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but until someone posts some saves and strats that show their power, I'll continue to consider them a punk faction.

I really can't explain it any better than I already have. DOC FLEX FROM TURN 1 IS HUGE (plus a unity gun). Even with the gaians, who I go to doc flex first with much of the time, you aren't going to swimming until 2110 usually. Rememebr any pod popped before 2115 has no real chance of killing any units, so its imperative you pop as many as you can in that time period. Plus, to say that the Pirates won't get a good shot at the SP's is flat out wrong. Morgan are my 2nd fav faction, and I can't get an SP done to usually sometime in the 30's, that would be sinfully slow for the pirates. All in all, you need to experience it for yourself, the pirate's advantages are to quanitfy, that doesn't mean that they are not strong.

[Net Warrior]

I haven't given much thought to playing the Pirates. Your ideas certainly have merrit. And no, The Free Drones would never be ahead of any faction at this point in the game. Not with no reasearch for the 1st 10 yrs and -2 research thereafter. The Drones must remain in survival mode till they pop boom.

[Sikander]

I remain unconvinced that the Pirates are one of the best factions (meaning most likely to win in MP), but they certainly remain one of the funnest to play IMO. One of the cool things about them is that they can do well as an early game tech broker due to their mobility. This can keep them competitive until they hit their stride in the mid game and later.

As Aaron points out they really don't produce all that well until restrictions are lifted. Once they do, they produce really well, 4-1-4 is very respectable production. Going to ground allows them to produce minerals as well as anyone else. They can use any SE settings, though their growth and efficiency malus' are somewhat daunting.

I find the most useful of the SPs for the Pirates (or almost any pop-boom inhibited faction) is the HGP. With it GA pop booming is a lot simpler. Get it early and run FM for a terrific energy boost. While I always enjoy getting the WP, it falls to #2 in my opinion for the Pirates.

[rsfarrell]

So those named as strongest include:

Uni
PKs
Pirates
Hive
Drones
Spartans/Cyborgs/Morgan/Gaia

Chose two among the latter four and start a tournament.

One of the more intriguing observations on this thread is that if a faction is too strong, the other in a PBEM game will target them from the get-go -- a major disadvantage. I would say this most disadvantages Uni and Cyborgs, because they are the most likely to reward the aggressor with juicy new techs.

I love the Uni -- I used to play them exclusively on SP until I broadened my focus -- but their being a target so early, and the fact that their major advantage can be instantly removed by a determined probe attack, makes me hestitate to put them at the very top. The advantages of the Drones -- or the PKs, for that matter -- can never be stolen.