The Oblivion Hardware Thread...

[Asher]

Since there's basically two discussions, we should fork the thread. Solver's thread will be for gameplay, this one for hardware.

Ask questions, discuss settings, discuss hardware, etc.

In the other thread somebody asked about power requirements.

300W is a bit skimpy for a powersupply, you may have to upgrade it. Usually the vendors post requirements on their pages.

The GeForce 7xxx series recommends 350W.
The Radeon X1xxx series recommends 420W (that seems a bit high -- other sites say 350W).

[Asher]

What to look for if you're upgrading your video card:

• Do you have AGP or PCI-Express? Only recent PCs have PCI-Express, which is replacing AGP.
  
• SM2.0, SM3.0: This means Shader Model 2.0 and Shader Model 3.0. It describes the complexity and capabilities of the processing units on the GPU: SM2.0 is older and will not support High Dynamic Range lighting (HDR), as well as some other features. SM3.0 is newer and definitely something you should look for. ATI's cards that support SM3.0 are all of the Radeon X1xxx series cards, Nvidia's cards that support SM3.0 are the GeForce 6 and 7 series. ATI's X300/600/800 and Radeon 9xxx series (excluding 9200) cards support SM2.0 only, Nvidia's GeForce FX cards support SM2.0 only. Radeon 9200 and below, and GeForce 4 and below all support SM1.1/1.2 only and will not run Oblivion at all.
  
• Memory interface: 128-bit vs 256-bit: 256-bit memory interfaces can send twice as much data to memory per cycle, so are twice as fast. Memory bandwidth is important in video cards.
  
• Pixel pipes/shaders: The number of processing pipelines the video card has...the higher the better.
  
• Vertex shaders: The number of vertex processors the video card has...the higher the better.
  
• Memory: 256MB is the sweetspot right now, 512MB is more forward-looking. 128MB isn't recommended.

[Asher]

Of course, the alternative to upgrading your PC is to purchase an Xbox 360. That's also the only way you can run both HDR and Anti-Aliasing at the same time. It's got 48 pixel shading pipelines or vertex shaders and 3 3.2GHz CPUs.

If you do not have a HDTV, consider the VGA adapter for the 360 to output to a monitor.

[Apocalypse]

You're kinda ahead on the curve...know any laptops in the future that'll have Vista and could play Oblivion well enough?

[Asher]

Any laptop today with a GeForce Go 6xxx or 7xxx or a Radeon Mobility X1xxx will play Oblivion fine as well as Vista.

Windows Vista's new UI only requires SM2.0 for full effects.

[Apocalypse]

I don't want to buy a laptop now only to have to buy vista later though.

[Asher]

So my recommendation to you would be to buy a laptop that includes Vista in January...

[Nostromo]

Of course, the alternative to upgrading your PC is to purchase an Xbox 360. That's also the only way you can run both HDR and Anti-Aliasing at the same time. It's got 48 pixel shading pipelines or vertex shaders and 3 3.2GHz CPUs.

Yet, despite all that power, people are reporting performance issues

I'm hesitating between that and upgrading. But since I don't own a HD TV, I would have to plug it in my 17 inch 5:4 LCD. That means playing games in letterbox.

Btw, what's the difference between a GeForce 6800 Ultra, a GT and a GS? And what are the good online stores in Canada? Is NCIX good, for example?

[Solver]

I recently replaced my power supply to a 300W new one, and am now having a little bit of strange issues. At least my UPS saves me.

I wonder now how long does it take for a videocard to become outdated. I still consider myself modest as far as my requirements go, my FX card is outdated now, but it runs Oblivion, and I only start getting stressed when my hardware doesn't run a game at all.

OK, a sensible question - is the 7200 btter than the 6800 or not?

[Asher]

The only performance issues in the Xbox 360 version are the odd stutters outside, mostly while it's streaming data to load. Those are few and far between.

NCIX is great, I just ordered my gig of RAM from them the other day. TigerDirect.ca is good as well when they have stuff in stock.

This chart is a good resource by the way. Click each name for more details: http://www.beyond3d.com/misc/chipcom...order=DESC&n=0

GeForce 6800 Ultra has 6 vertex shaders, 16 pixel shaders, is 400MHz with 35.2GB/s memory bandwidth.
GeForce 6800 GS has 5 vertex shaders, 12 pixel shaders, is 425MHz with 32.0GB/s memory bandwidth.
GeForce 6800 GT has 6 vertex shaders, 16 pixel shaders, is 350MHz, with 32.0GB/s memory bandwidth.

The GeForce 7800 GS has 6 vertex shaders, 16 pixel shaders, is 385MHz*, with 38.5GN/s bandwidth*.

The * is because I don't think anyone sells boards at those specs. The eVGA 7800 GS is 460MHz with 52GB/s RAM, for instance. These cards easily hit 500MHz. Also note, the vertex and pixel shaders on the Geforce 7xxx series are much faster than the ones on the 6xxx series as well. eVGA even has a lifetime warranty -- even if you fry it overclocking (which theoretically won't happen due to thermal diodes on the chips now anyway).

[Solver]

All that memory bandwidth/throughput stuff is crap. Along with the rush to switch to PCI-E. I mean, PCI-E does have theoretically better throughput than AGP, but no existing video application passes gigabytes of video data per second...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Solver
I recently replaced my power supply to a 300W new one, and am now having a little bit of strange issues. At least my UPS saves me.

I wonder now how long does it take for a videocard to become outdated. I still consider myself modest as far as my requirements go, my FX card is outdated now, but it runs Oblivion, and I only start getting stressed when my hardware doesn't run a game at all.

OK, a sensible question - is the 7200 btter than the 6800 or not?

I don't think there is a 7200...and which 6800?

[Solver]

There is a 7200 now, kind of a low-range 7xxx series card. Which is why I'm wary, it'll probably turn out slower than the 6800s or something.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Solver
All that memory bandwidth/throughput stuff is crap.

Actually, if you scale the clockspeed and memory speed on these cards you see a very linear correlation with performance...

PCI-Express vs AGP is another issue entirely.

[Solver]

Found it, the 7200 has a 450 MHz core and 525 MHz memory, along with PS 3.0 support. Definitely not crap.

[Solver]

Originally posted by Asher

Actually, if you scale the clockspeed and memory speed on these cards you see a very linear correlation with performance...

I'm talking about the memory bandwidth figures, who cares if the card has 10, 20 or 30 GB/s memory bandwidth at this point?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Btw, if any of you are thinking of going SLI or Crossfire in the future, you'd be cautioned to get a 600W power supply. CNET found that new computers from high end vendors like Velocity Micro and Alienware that had SLI with 500W power supplies caused problems.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Solver
I'm talking about the memory bandwidth figures, who cares if the card has 10, 20 or 30 GB/s memory bandwidth at this point?

Errr...if you had a card with 10GB/s I guarantee you, you would care. Modern video cards are very sensitive to memory bandwidth.

If the memory bandwidth is insufficient, you can't get data to/from the GPU fast enough and it ends up stalling all the time.

[Solver]

Really? To the point where 10 GB/s would have a negative impact despite there not being as much data to pass?

[Asher]

To the point where your card would perform abysmally...

You're talking like 5fps in a game like Oblivion.

[Kinjiru]

Good thinking seperating these discussions out Ash.

Originally posted by Asher
What to look for if you're upgrading your video card:

Memory interface: 128-bit vs 256-bit: 256-bit memory interfaces can send twice as much data to memory per cycle, so are twice as fast. Memory bandwidth is important in video cards.

Memory: 256MB is the sweetspot right now, 512MB is more forward-looking. 128MB isn't recommended.

How important is the relationship between these two sets of specs? Those NewEgg quotes from the first thread, with the low prices for 512 MB cards, all were cards with 128-bit memory interfaces. So, with that size memory interface, is there really a point to having 512MB of ram onboard the card? Will it really perform any better then a 256MB variant?

I certainly notice that the more expensive 512MB cards all have 256-bit memory interfaces (as well as faster memory, assuming that DDR3 and DDR2 on these cards is functionally equivalent to main system RAM).

[Solver]

Oh. Must mean that my card has 5 GB/s then .

[Dis]

Originally posted by Asher
Since there's basically two discussions, we should fork the thread. Solver's thread will be for gameplay, this one for hardware.

Ask questions, discuss settings, discuss hardware, etc.

In the other thread somebody asked about power requirements.

300W is a bit skimpy for a powersupply, you may have to upgrade it. Usually the vendors post requirements on their pages.

The GeForce 7xxx series recommends 350W.
The Radeon X1xxx series recommends 420W (that seems a bit high -- other sites say 350W).

speaking of power supply. I'm not sure if mine needs one. I'd imagine it does.

My instructions (which annoyingly applies to a wide range of radion cards) says if the card came with the cable already in it, then it needs to be hooked up to the power supply. My card didn't actually have the cable connected in it, but the power cable did come in the same plastic container. I hooked it up anyways. I'm not sure if my fan is actually working though. Am I taking a chance using this card without a fan. My power supply is only 250 W . Very low. I actually leave the side of my computer open all the time (because my power switch/button doesn't work, and I have to run the wires going to my power switch out the side, and turn it on that way. It didn't overheat after several hours of play last night, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

btw my instructions only recommended 300 watts for the power supply.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Kinjiru
How important is the relationship between these two sets of specs? Those NewEgg quotes from the first thread, with the low prices for 512 MB cards, all were cards with 128-bit memory interfaces. So, with that size memory interface, is there really a point to having 512MB of ram onboard the card? Will it really perform any better then a 256MB variant?

I certainly notice that the more expensive 512MB cards all have 256-bit memory interfaces (as well as faster memory, assuming that DDR3 and DDR2 on these cards is functionally equivalent to main system RAM).

DDR3/GDDR3 is like DDR/DDR2 but has higher latency, but runs at higher clocks so gets much higher bandwidth.

IMO, 128-bit cards with 512MB are very stupid. It's no use having so much memory if the interface to get to it is so narrow.

128-bit is usually on value cards, 256-bit on higher end cards. There's usually a very large difference in performance between 128-bit and 256-bit.

The 256MB vs 512MB debate is more difficult...if the game doesn't use more than 256MB (and I don't think many/any do?) it won't make any real difference. If you want to play Quake4 in 2048x1280 or whatever with 4x FSAA, you'll need 512MB though.

512MB isn't really useful at all right now, but it will be more useful in the future...

[bonscott]

Well, since Yin sharked me on the x1600 I went with the x800 GTO, about $30 more or so.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102609

I have a 9800 Pro now, couple year old PC, AGP only. Did a lot of research before buying. It's gotten a lot of good reviews and Anandtech said the x800 was a great mid-range card. From what I've read most people with this card run Oblivion with everything on high.

No SM 3.0 but it is 256 bit, GDDR3 and 12 pipelines. So I should be happy with it. I think this will get my PC along for a couple more years before I finally replace it.

And I checked for the heck of it and 1 gig of PC 3200 RAM was all of $69. So I picked it up (exact same kind I got before) so that will put me up to 2 gig RAM at very little expense, that should tide me over.

[bonscott]

Originally posted by Asher
The 256MB vs 512MB debate is more difficult...if the game doesn't use more than 256MB (and I don't think many/any do?) it won't make any real difference. If you want to play Quake4 in 2048x1280 or whatever with 4x FSAA, you'll need 512MB though.

512MB isn't really useful at all right now, but it will be more useful in the future...

Yea, this was the same debate I had with myself a couple years ago with 128 vs. 256. Nothing at the time would really use 256 unless you really cranked up something to massive resolution. But it would future proof you a bit.

Kind of the same crossroads now as then. Nothing really needs 512, not even Obvlivion, but it would future proof you for that game next year that looks so much sweeter if you have 512.

[Spaced Cowboy]

I'm confused ... you want a card just for the year, but you don't worry about the money? Getting mixed signals here...

Basically, assuming you care at least a bit about money, i'd argue that anything with SM 3.0 is going to be fine for this year. X1600Pro is better than the X1300, though X1300 plays Oblivion fine. If you don't think you're going to play anything "worse" than Oblivion, get whichever (1300 or 1600) that you wish; 1300 will be a few tens of dollars cheaper ($100ish vs $150ish), but 1600 is somewhat better (12 vs 4 pixel pipelines, though iirc a pretty similar GPU overall).

Actually, it looks like if you go Sapphire, you can get an X1600 Pro for $129 ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16814102653

That's a great card, and I'd think should be more than adequate for the next year or more.

Actually I'd like to get the best card for the money right now. I don't have a problem spending up to $200 for a video card since my system will be okay for 1-1.5 years more.

The question that still remains is will the x1600 with its tri-pumped 4 pixel pipeline design (not 12 separate pipelines) with SM3.0 and 512 meg, outshine the X800GTO which has 12 real pipelines and DDR3 (but only 256) and is limited to SM2.0?

I am very interested in bonscott's purchase and want to see what he thinks of the X800GTO, since he'll be replacing the same card as I will, but on the same hand interested in yin26's card as his is the other option.

But I have not noticed that bad of a lag...or maybe I used to it. I have not gone for the ini tweaks yet and am running @ 600x800. I'll probably try them tonight (I DL'd them all).

But thanks again to bonscott for telling me which runs best...I barely have time to play the game much less spend time tweaking the settings.

[bonscott]

I'll report what happens with some screenshots. I *should* get the card tomorrow but we'll see. I'm almost thinking of starting the game over and re-experience everything. I haven't done anything quest related yet, just dungeon diving. Up to level 7 now.

I'll be very happy with this card if I can turn up the resolution to 1024x768 with most settings up on high with at least 30fps. We'll see!

[Quillan]

Spaced, SM3.0 isn't terribly important right now. However, there are already games out there that use it. More games will be coming out within the next couple of years that use it. Oblivion is the first game that I know of that requires SM2.0, so I expect it will still be 3-4 years before any game requires SM3.0. I do expect that over the next 2 years SM3.0 will become much more important, as it has certain performance enhancements over 2.0.

I am curious though, you said your motherboard won't take nVidia. Why is that?

[yin26]

My order should arrive tomorrow. I added an Antec 500w power supply, too, because the card recommends 300+ watts and my computer only has 210w! The whole thing, including rush order and FedEx Overnight was $230.

Here's the link to the Antec: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817103937

I checked this card out at Circuit City, Best Buy, and Comp USA -- they all wanted $300 (+tax) for the card alone! Add in their price for the Antec 500w power supply, and the price would have closed in on $500.