Review-in-Progress (Open Thread)

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Sirian

My Apolyton bio may say Map Designer, but that was the least of my duties in working on Civ4. The credits say, "Gameplay and AI Consultant". You can do the math from there.

Believe me when I say that there are fewer ways to improve on the GalCiv2 tech trading than there are to screw it up and break the game.

Well, of course it can get worse. I'm not saying that making random, undirected changes would improve it. What I'm saying is that (for example) just copying some of the ideas from Civ4 would be a significant improvement. There are also other, pretty obvious things that one could do to achieve similar results by different mechanisms than in Civ4. I don't believe this is all that hard---you may feel otherwise. Of course, you have to want to improve the game by making it harder to exploit the AI's trading weaknesses, and Brad may not want to do that. But I do think that he could if he wanted to.

[Sirian]

One of the brighter sides of GalCiv is the Trade Income. This source of economic power is totally independent of your empire size. In GC1 it could represent half your income even for a large empire, and could allow a One Planet Challenge. In GC2, it seems to represent a smaller chunk but is still significant enough to keep you in the game even with a short straw on territory.

If you do have a smaller empire, you can spend less of your planetary resources on income improvements and more on spending installations.


There is also a good bit of variety available. Playing with the different starting bonuses can lean your game one way or another. I typically take a little of each from many different areas, for more total net boost, but you can specialize in one or two and lean your whole game on those strengths.


- Sirian

[Darsnan]

The posts of those that have already blown thru this game and analyzed it in-depth to the Nth Degree remind me of a conversation I had with a fellow at work. Essentially he was selling his copy of Civ4 back in January for $30, so I asked him why. He said he had enjoyed it, but had played it thru and was now tired of it. I was shocked to realize someone could have played Civ4 so intensely in 40 days that they'd be tired of it to the point of selling it! However now I am seeing that there are others who play games the same way.
Anyways, I thought about what the fellow had said to me, but especially since I was still in the early stages of tinkering with Civ4, I decided that his approach to the game really didn't match up well with my own approach, and so I have focused elsewhere for feedback on Civ4. And I think the same can be said here regarding people reading these reviews of GalCiv2. Essentially if your a player thats gonna blow thru a game in a few weeks then probably Gal Civ2 isn't for you right now, as by the time the patches for the problems you will encounter come out, you'll be long gone. Otherwise, why its probably a good deal to buy now, as by the time you get well enough versed with the game, the issues that are now being documented will have been fixed via patches, and the game will be just that much more enjoyable.


D

[yin26]

I mentioned about the overlaping auto-scouts. I set three scouts ... different build times from the same planet ... to auto, and here is what I got!



I hope this can be fixed so auto scouts don't overlap.

[yin26]

By the way, my current game is a huge map, 9 civ game, tight clusters on Tough. I felt that map size and configuration would limit the Light Speed Lottery (tm) on colonizing planets. This worked surprisingly well. I managed to colonize all the planets I felt I "should" have, and at no point did I feel the AI was cheating to get to a certain planet (even if it were, the map size limited what it could do in time). In fact, when I saw the AI beelining for a resource on the far side of my system, I even had time to rush build a constructor and claim it first. That was satisfying.

I went with a custom race (human, actually) so deselected the "real" human race from the other active civs. I plan to use the custom race so my ship designs will carry over even if I ever change my custom civ around. This time, I went heavy on tech bonuses to see how that plays out. So far (an hour in to the game), I'm strongly ahead on research numbers and am doing decently well in most other categories, except for production (building labs first). Just got trade and am readying frieghters.

As Sirian notes, trade is a critical aspect of the game...without it, I'd be broke soon. This means a smaller empire can hang in there, true. What Im more interested in watching this game is if trade routes really change how civs interact with me.

[bonscott]

Originally posted by yin26
What Im more interested in watching this game is if trade routes really change how civs interact with me.

It usually does although it's a combination of factors. If you create trade routes with a Civ they are more likely to send their own freighters to you. I find that most of my trading partners like me more, usually moving toward friendly relationship (however alignment can trump this and a militarily aggressive civ will also override trade a lot of times). If you can get a decent % amount of the AI civ's economy based on trading with you, they will be much less likely to declare war. I've also found that over time I'll get better trade deals with heavy trading partners and can bribe them easier to go to war for me.

In my current game the Drath just declard war on me but the Thalen love me to death and it was easy to bribe them to declare war on the Drath with me.

The Yor also love me and it kills me to talk to them sometimes when they say something like "Hey bonscott, how's it hanging? Always good to talk with my best buddy. Is there anything, and I mean anything I can do for you?"
"But of course, can you attack the Drath for me in exchange for Shields, they are a pain."
"No problemo!"

[yin26]

Cool! Of course, I guess the question is, then, can you abuse the system too easily in your opinion, or is it adding nice atmosphere and meaningful gameplay?

[Gufnork]

I'm good at abusing systems and I haven't found a way to abuse trading yet. I did try to send trading ships to civs I knew would attack me (it's quite easy to tell) to see if I could prevent them from doing so. I could not. Nowadays I tend to only trade with possible friends, especially since I favor good (and good get a trade bonus with other good trading partners). This way I don't bolster the economy of my future enemies, I'm more likely to get allies when war does ensue and the trade routes are less likely to disappear when war begins. It does in no way feel like an exploit though and trading in general is a feature I feel they've succeeded with.

[Hansolo88]

If you really, really focus on it, trading can become almost a mini-game in and of itself. The trade modules on starbases are very powerful but are only effective when your freighters are in the starbase sphere of influence. So I can go crazy sometimes trying to get as many of my trade routes as possible to run down a certain corridor that I have lined with economic starbases with maxed out trade modules. You can also tip your civ heavily toward trade bonuses and additional routes. The resulting income can be enormous, but also very vulnerable. So far, trade is one of my favorite aspects of the game.

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Darsnan

However now I am seeing that there are others who play games the same way.

I don't see how you can post 3000 messages on Apolyton and just now be discovering this.

[tetley]

I never played that much with trade modules, even in Galciv1. If I have two good planets close together I'll plop down an econ starbase. And if they're well-located I'll plug in trade modules, just because it's convenient. I suppose an econ starbase for just one planet may be worth it sometimes, if it happens to be along trade routes.

[yin26]

O.K. Have the day off today.

(-) It's only fair, since I got down on Civ 4 for this, but the map doesn't wrap. So depending on if you are in the center or in the corner, luck of the draw can have too much say in the matter.

(-) I'm back on this one, but it's important: Please, when you select a ship to build on a planet, don't have "Back to Planet" reset the build instructions. Or please have "Done" take you back to the planet with the build instruction set. As it is now, you set the build instruction by "Done," which drops you to the main map, but I want to be on the planet, confirming the build instruction and/or doing other things.

(-) If a civ is going to go after you (this comment is for 'Tough'), it should have ships at the ready to do the job. In my game, a civ got after me, took out a freighter or two, but then didn't have enough on hand to do the job (I had *no* defense at that point). Within some turns, I had a decent fleet up and was taking the hurt back to him. Again, maybe higher levels use better tactics, and it's also possible my limited experience is seeing only a fluke or something.

(-) Another map issue: If you are lucky enough to have good clusters within engine range, you're set. Otherwise, you can bust pretty easily and be too far away from quality planets...at which point you're dead. Suggestion: Customized option that goes something like "Civs have x starting planets with an average rating of x." Another option could then be "Civs alway have nearby access to at least x number of planets with an average rating of x." Maybe that isn't the right way to go about it, but the goal simply is to ensure, for players who want to, a level starting position and a reasonable promise of fruitful expansion efforts. Sure, you should still hussle to capture nearby planets.

(+) Even after reading some of the strats in this thread, I'm still finding the game engaging, perhaps because I'm on a learning curve.

(+) I think I like the signature GalCiv2 music better than I do the Civ 4 signature song...though they're both great! Nice work.

(+) Did you know you can use the scroll wheel when setting a price in negotiations? This is _so_ much faster and more effective than clicking or dragging the scroll bar. NOTE: This seems to work for all such scroll bars, like when you are setting your spending distribution, etc.

(+) Full customization of things like Civ color are just outstanding. The ability to control my gaming environment like that is one of the things that really fosters my GalCiv loyalty.

[tetley]

Luck of the draw does have a lot of say, but while I'm all for Civ4 wrapping, I don't think Galciv2 should. It's in space.

I always liked Galciv music better than Civ. Especially that Civ3 modern age music with that Kenny G stuff. It's decent elevator music, but when you listen to it hours on end...nerve-wracking!

Cool tip about the scroll wheel.

[yin26]

Yes, conceptually it's in space, I agree. Also, this is not as agregious at it feels/plays in Civ because there is no water protecting you from AIs at least. However, wrapping maps mean you can't hide in the corner.

(+) I wanted to add that I am so much happier in GalCiv2 v. Civ4 not having the computer suggest a line of technological research for me. In fact, given that the GalCiv2 tech tree is a lot more varied and subtle than Civ4's, I love that "I feel a little bit lost as to what tech to research...so I guess I'd better actually think about this" feeling. There are super cheap techs at the top of the tree along with vastly more expensive ones that might or might not pay off in the short term at least if you are ignoring key ones further down. This puts a premium back on tech trades (the ones Sirian hates with a passion). Again, I lack the gameplay experience with GalCiv2 to say whether or not the tech setup is great in any way other than atmosphere at this point, and perhaps the Civ4 tech scheme is better balanced in the end, but I can just say that I feel a lot more engaged with my tech decisions in GalCiv2 than I do in Civ4.

[yin26]

(+) Another nice thing about the music is that it's responsive to your situation in sometimes subtle ways. For example, if you are at war with somebody, you get tension filled music (nothing too bombastic, mind you). I like this approach better than period piece music -- which works fine for Civ, and I generally like the music there.