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Letting the computer recomend city sites feels like cheating

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  • Letting the computer recomend city sites feels like cheating

    I've noticed several times that the computer has highlighted a suggested city site based on information that was not available to me. It was most obvious with early game city placement where you get placed next to resources in the fog of war that you weren't aware of, but I've noticed now that some of the odd recomendations (where there appears to be a far better choice only one square away) appear to be because it is taking into account resources that have not been revealed to you yet.

    I ran into this tonight when the AI recomended a site that kept me from getting some sugar and a floodplain tile. I moved one square to the west and planted, and then found horses and iron just outside my city radius to the east when I picked up AH and IW.

    It's making me realize that a lot of my independent choices were inferior to what the computer recomended to me, but it wasn't my fault. I'm considering turning it off, but I hate finding out that I'm one square away from good resources later in the game.

  • #2
    Re: Letting the computer recomend city sites feels like cheating

    Originally posted by Badtz Maru
    I've noticed several times that the computer has highlighted a suggested city site based on information that was not available to me.
    That's not supposed to be the case.
    (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
    (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
    (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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    • #3
      Re: Re: Letting the computer recomend city sites feels like cheating

      Originally posted by Urban Ranger


      That's not supposed to be the case.
      I wonder, I've seen it said that the enemy AI doesn't take advantage of it, I wonder if you're own AI might?
      www.neo-geo.com

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      • #4
        I've noticed this too. I've learnt to trust the computer when coming to un-explored land and new city sites.

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        • #5
          I don't trust the ai on this. It doesn't take into account the value of caosts for example. I had a city site where I could reach 3 sea resources + 2 elephants (!) and the comp didn't recommend a site where a I could harvest all 5 resources, but one nearby which was much less interesting.
          Clash of Civilization team member
          (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
          web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Hedgie2
            I've noticed this too. I've learnt to trust the computer when coming to un-explored land and new city sites.
            same here. Now I only rarely choose a site that it does not highlight...

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            • #7
              OTOH, I hardly take a site that's got a blue circle.
              (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
              (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
              (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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              • #8
                There's an easy way to prove this. Before you do anything when first loading a game, go into the World Builder and look for an important strategic resource nearby that you can't see at start. If there isn't one, scatter some specials so there is only one site that has access to all of them (i.e. 5 squares apart). Then go back into the game and move the settler that way. The ideal location to make use of those unseen resources will be marked.

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                • #9
                  I rarely use the sugested site for 2 reasons, firstly because I will favour putting the city on a hills site for defence, and secondly because I like to be able to grow the city before the first expansion of cultural boundaries, so I would rather have 2 resources in the first circle than 5 resources in the 2nd circle.

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                  • #10
                    I have the suggested site thing disabled myself, and now that the patch finally has tiles showing their proper yields for me I don't let it automate choosing city tiles to work either. I'm building and managing my own empire, not some AIs. :P
                    "Every good communist should know political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao tse-Tung

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                    • #11
                      LoL its not telling u to put ur citys any where its just telling u if u put ur city there it will not over lap another city. So that u can proportion ur civilization to have a better us of land...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Not Happy
                        LoL its not telling u to put ur citys any where its just telling u if u put ur city there it will not over lap another city. So that u can proportion ur civilization to have a better us of land...
                        Wow, have you played the game? Are you not aware that it will recomend city sites 3 squares away from another city?

                        Anybody who has played the game in a fully aware state will have noticed that the site recomendations take into account special resources and productivity of tiles. The algorithm is not perfect, it does not seem to place enough emphasis on the importance of placing on the coast, and some people differ with it's preference to not place cities on hills (and this is a matter of opinion, I think it's better to mine a plains hill than get one extra hammer in your city). But it DOES take into consideration what specials are nearby, I know for a fact that it's aware of special tiles in the fog of war, and I'm 99% sure it's aware of resources that you do not have the tech to see yet.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Badtz Maru
                          ...I know for a fact that it's aware of special tiles in the fog of war, and I'm 99% sure it's aware of resources that you do not have the tech to see yet.
                          Well, Soren denied that the placement routine knows things that you don't.
                          (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                          (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                          (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Urban Ranger


                            Well, Soren denied that the placement routine knows things that you don't.
                            I'm not 100% convinced that it's aware of resources not revealed to the player yet, but it sure knows what's in the fog of war. When it recomends a site on the edge of the fog of war with no visible special resources there will ALWAYS be specials that are revealed in the city radius when you place. I just did a test where I loaded up and it recomended two sites - one that was within range of two resources, one on the edge of the fog of war that only had one. I went into the world builder, and there was iron and aluminum within the radius of the second site that would have been missed by the other.

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                            • #15
                              I'm perfectly happy letting the blue circles show me decent city spaces.

                              Especially when playing multi-player and getting 30 seconds to do your turn.

                              Besides, how can you consider it cheating? The comp is almost definately using the same formula to establish city sites for the ai's you face, so if anything it's just another way to even out the gameplay between human and ai.

                              I have no problem with that.

                              If; on the other hand; the comp wouldn't let me place cities anywhere 'except' the blue circles, well, I'd have a problem with that.
                              ..there are known ‘knowns’ There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. ~~Donald Rumsfeld

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