Letting the computer recomend city sites feels like cheating

Badtz Maru · February 10, 2006, 20:06

I've noticed several times that the computer has highlighted a suggested city site based on information that was not available to me. It was most obvious with early game city placement where you get placed next to resources in the fog of war that you weren't aware of, but I've noticed now that some of the odd recomendations (where there appears to be a far better choice only one square away) appear to be because it is taking into account resources that have not been revealed to you yet.

I ran into this tonight when the AI recomended a site that kept me from getting some sugar and a floodplain tile. I moved one square to the west and planted, and then found horses and iron just outside my city radius to the east when I picked up AH and IW.

It's making me realize that a lot of my independent choices were inferior to what the computer recomended to me, but it wasn't my fault. I'm considering turning it off, but I hate finding out that I'm one square away from good resources later in the game.

Urban Ranger · February 11, 2006, 01:02

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
I've noticed several times that the computer has highlighted a suggested city site based on information that was not available to me.

That's not supposed to be the case.

johnmcd · February 11, 2006, 02:45

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

That's not supposed to be the case.

I wonder, I've seen it said that the enemy AI doesn't take advantage of it, I wonder if you're own AI might?

Hedgie2 · February 11, 2006, 03:28

I've noticed this too. I've learnt to trust the computer when coming to un-explored land and new city sites.

LDiCesare · February 11, 2006, 04:07

I don't trust the ai on this. It doesn't take into account the value of caosts for example. I had a city site where I could reach 3 sea resources + 2 elephants (!) and the comp didn't recommend a site where a I could harvest all 5 resources, but one nearby which was much less interesting.

Lambiorix_be · February 11, 2006, 07:06

Originally posted by Hedgie2
I've noticed this too. I've learnt to trust the computer when coming to un-explored land and new city sites.

same here. Now I only rarely choose a site that it does not highlight...

Urban Ranger · February 11, 2006, 21:34

OTOH, I hardly take a site that's got a blue circle.

Badtz Maru · February 11, 2006, 22:44

There's an easy way to prove this. Before you do anything when first loading a game, go into the World Builder and look for an important strategic resource nearby that you can't see at start. If there isn't one, scatter some specials so there is only one site that has access to all of them (i.e. 5 squares apart). Then go back into the game and move the settler that way. The ideal location to make use of those unseen resources will be marked.

trev · February 12, 2006, 03:16

I rarely use the sugested site for 2 reasons, firstly because I will favour putting the city on a hills site for defence, and secondly because I like to be able to grow the city before the first expansion of cultural boundaries, so I would rather have 2 resources in the first circle than 5 resources in the 2nd circle.

ChaotikVisions · February 12, 2006, 23:17

I have the suggested site thing disabled myself, and now that the patch finally has tiles showing their proper yields for me I don't let it automate choosing city tiles to work either. I'm building and managing my own empire, not some AIs. :P

Not Happy · February 12, 2006, 23:19

LoL its not telling u to put ur citys any where its just telling u if u put ur city there it will not over lap another city. So that u can proportion ur civilization to have a better us of land...

Badtz Maru · February 12, 2006, 23:37

Originally posted by Not Happy
LoL its not telling u to put ur citys any where its just telling u if u put ur city there it will not over lap another city. So that u can proportion ur civilization to have a better us of land...

Wow, have you played the game? Are you not aware that it will recomend city sites 3 squares away from another city?

Anybody who has played the game in a fully aware state will have noticed that the site recomendations take into account special resources and productivity of tiles. The algorithm is not perfect, it does not seem to place enough emphasis on the importance of placing on the coast, and some people differ with it's preference to not place cities on hills (and this is a matter of opinion, I think it's better to mine a plains hill than get one extra hammer in your city). But it DOES take into consideration what specials are nearby, I know for a fact that it's aware of special tiles in the fog of war, and I'm 99% sure it's aware of resources that you do not have the tech to see yet.

Urban Ranger · February 13, 2006, 02:29

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
...I know for a fact that it's aware of special tiles in the fog of war, and I'm 99% sure it's aware of resources that you do not have the tech to see yet.

Well, Soren denied that the placement routine knows things that you don't.

Badtz Maru · February 13, 2006, 10:59

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Well, Soren denied that the placement routine knows things that you don't.

I'm not 100% convinced that it's aware of resources not revealed to the player yet, but it sure knows what's in the fog of war. When it recomends a site on the edge of the fog of war with no visible special resources there will ALWAYS be specials that are revealed in the city radius when you place. I just did a test where I loaded up and it recomended two sites - one that was within range of two resources, one on the edge of the fog of war that only had one. I went into the world builder, and there was iron and aluminum within the radius of the second site that would have been missed by the other.

uberloz · February 13, 2006, 11:50

I'm perfectly happy letting the blue circles show me decent city spaces.

Especially when playing multi-player and getting 30 seconds to do your turn.

Besides, how can you consider it cheating? The comp is almost definately using the same formula to establish city sites for the ai's you face, so if anything it's just another way to even out the gameplay between human and ai.

I have no problem with that.

If; on the other hand; the comp wouldn't let me place cities anywhere 'except' the blue circles, well, I'd have a problem with that.

Rancidlunchmeat · February 13, 2006, 16:32

Well.. definately, I've noticed this too.

I used to completely ignore the recommendations because I'd see a better spot one or two moves away. A couple new techs later, sure enough! If I would have built where the AI recommended originally, I'd have a much better city.

But I do also agree that it's placement routine is slightly buggered, or atleast doesn't take into account all the same factors that you might want. I've ignored the AI recommendations for various reasons and have been happy about it because I needed access to say.. bronze and marble NOW and not when the city hits its third expansion.

But, for the most part, the recommended sites are really the preferred spot.

JimG · February 16, 2006, 04:51

Last night I ignored the blue circle 'cos I wanted access to the coast & its fish. When oil pops up later - guess what - if i'd take the blue circle it would have been the only city with oil already in its borders. Now I've got to settle a very marginal city elsewhere to get some...

padillah · February 16, 2006, 06:25

I plan on doing a test tonight. I will generate a blank map, just grass. Go into WorldBuilder and set up a location as a start with 1 dye two squares away to the left and 2 dyes three squares away to the right (so they are in the initial FOW and see where it suggests I go. Of course it may very well suggest both places.

Then I'll make a map with 2 dye two squares to the left and three iron three squares away to the right and see what the suggestion is.

I'll publish the maps so others can see what happens for them. This should answer the question once and for all.

Tom P.

Rancidlunchmeat · February 16, 2006, 20:45

Would that really be a satisifactory test though?

How about making two spots.. one with spice hidden in the FOW and another with spice and iron hidden in the FOW.

Then, the only thing different about the two spots is access to a resource that you don't have the tech for that shouldn't influence the computer's suggestions.

Hmm.. not sure that would prove anything either, because then it would just suggest both city sites.

Maybe just make two spots.. one with cows and one with iron. It shouldn't even suggest the iron spot because the AI isn't supposed to 'know' about resources you don't have.. so it should only suggest a single city.. the one with the cows.

Right?

I look forward to your results!

marvinkosh · February 17, 2006, 02:41

Bear this in mind though.... if there is no one spot that would have netted you all the nearby resources for use by the city, but your cultural borders will eventually allow you to add the non-worked resources to your empire, then a compromise location is worked out.

Possibly.

padillah · February 17, 2006, 20:43

OK first, my appologies for those that don't like large screen shots but I wanted to keep the screenshots as valid as possible.

Now, what I did was used WP to create a blank world, just Grass, Coast, and Ocean. Then I played the scenario as Asoka (no real reason) just to see where the starting position and suggestion would be: it was kind of bad and the suggestion was to build right where I stood.

So I went into the WorldBuilder and added a horse out in the fog of war:

When I went back it still suggested that I build where I stood. So I went back and added more horses and it still held that I build where I stood. So I added a couple of crab on the other side of the horse and it stayed the same.
Well, tester that I am I had to get the circle to move, so I added whales just out of reach for the square I was in but I could move and get them.

This still didn't get the sugesstion to move.

So I decided that a reload of this scenario would make the AI decide again (I didn't think until later I could probably have simply skipped turns, but that may have influenced the decision too. The recommender might want you to build a city rather than loose more time. This way was more pure.)

When I reloaded sure enough the decision was different, it wasn't there.

So I went to WB and removed the whales and reloaded... still no decision. Then I decided to head for the crabs and see what happened. Well, I finally got a blue circle...

Now realise that I'm currently standing on a horse with a horse to my north and crabs directly east and northeast.

I then placed wheat in the same places as the horses since you don't need to discover anything to see wheat. I won't boor you with the screenshots but nothing changed.

Now, remembering that there is nothing on this map but me and the horses and crab I can say that I do not believe the recommender can see into the FOW nor does it see resources that have not shown up yet.

I don't know what it's criteria ARE so I can't say if following the recommendations is any better than randomly picking a tile but... that's what I get from the tests.

Tom P.

padillah · February 17, 2006, 20:52

I hate to do this but I found out something, when I loaded up the "horses in FOW and whales out of reach" scenario at first it didn't suggest a build location, so I skipped a turn thinking "what could it hurt"?

Well, it ruined my theory... kinda. It made a new suggestion, but farther away from the whales!

(The whales are there, I just caught them under water.)

So what the heck does that mean? And WHY the suggestion way over to the NW? There's nothing that says I can even GET there from here. The only things on this map are the horses to the east and crabs east of them. The suggestion to the east makes sense if you think the recommender sees resources in the FOW and ones that you can't see. But explain the recommendation to the NW.

Tom P.

padillah · February 17, 2006, 21:00

Oh, Here's the scenario that I started with if you want to test some other conditions.

AsokaStartAllBlank

Tom P.

bonscott · February 20, 2006, 07:49

I can't see how it's cheating since I rarely take the suggested tile cause it usually sucks. The suggestion knows nothing about strategic military locations or bottlenecks for example and almost always chooses 1 tile from the coast which is most situations is terrible to do.