CHEATS (ver 2.0) Hosted by Ming

[Ming]

The first summary has already been sent in.
But, we will continue in our efforts to find more. So, read through the summary. If you see something that needs to be addressed, please post it. If I have forgotten something, just give me grief and I will work it into the next wave.

Again, thanks for your help... here is the summary.

CHEATS

Even though this section is called cheats, it really encompasses much more. This was also meant to cover design flaws that can be utilized to your advantage while playing
the game. We recognize that much of the new game will be different than the current
game. And many of the things we are going to bring up will probably be changed anyway. But, our intent is show you how we abuse the current game. By seeing how we do it now, you will have an idea of what to pay attention to in the new game.

First, I would like to thank the following people for all their time and contributions to this section: Ecce Homo, Carolus Rex, Theben, Zorloc, EnochF, DaveV, Txurce, Xin Yu, Depp, GP,Rainer, Sieve Too, Bird, Travathian, Rashind, Sten Sture, JoshXLII, Matthew, Alexander's Horse, mingko, MWHC, and Kaak.

FREE INFORMATION
Much of the fun of the game is in the discovery. But little did you know that you provide us with tons of ways to cheat and get information we shouldn't have:

1) if you are looking for other civs, you can use the city menu and click on a unit. It
tells you the nearest city, even if you haven't found the city yet. It helps you find, or hunt down other civs.
2) Clicking on the map where you haven't explored, and look at the number after the
coordinates tells you if the place is ocean or land… very important when moving ships
that can be lost at sea.
3) double-click a square which you have already explored. If you don't see the terrian information, then you know somebody has built a city there.
4) Any city that has built a wonder may be located using the "find City" command. You
get an exact location, even if you haven't discovered the city yet.

In MP, there are a few real good sources for "free" information:

1) The start up screen when you select civs while continuing a saved game. This gives
you the number of cities and number of units for all civs. Now, you probably did this to
allow somebody new to pick the better of the AI controlled civs. Why not set it up so
that if a civ has been passworded, the information doesn't show for them.
2) The chat screen provides titles for the players you are sending messages too. If you
learn the different titles for each race, you can reasonably track what government they
are in, or when they are between governments.
3) If somebody investigates a city with a spy or diplomat, all players in the game that
have that city on his or her map can see what's in it too.

THE CHEAT MENU AND GAME SECURITY

And right behind all the free information we can get through the above things, there is
always the cheat menu. Most people love the cheat menu, and nobody really wants it
eliminated. However, better security is needed. Here are the issues that were raised:

1) Password protection on MP was a great idea. But, if you use the scenario menu, and
flag the scenario option, you can then use the cheat menu to view the board, or even
change the rules. Some people have been saving the game, and then loading it onto a
second computer so they can view the whole world while playing an MP game. Why not
offer the same protection… if you want to use the scenario options, have it check to
see if there are any passwords. This won't stop designers from doing what they want,
but it would stop the blatant cheating.
2) The next point is one you can't probably do anything about, but most people brought
it up. The reloading of a game to avoid and replay a "bad event" is always discussed.
It's ok that you can do this, because many people do it. But, is there some way a "no
cheat" option can be selected at the start of the game that would not allow reloading.
Again, it is probably impossible, but many people would like to see this option.
3) The cheat menu is nice. And it's really nice that if you use it, it is recorded in the game. But most people just go to cheat, look at the map or whatever, and then reload
the game so it isn't recorded. Again, probably impossible to do… but anything that would even make this harder to do would help.
4) The password coding is too easy to break. Several people have come up ways read them, or cancel them.

FREE MOVEMENT

While airports and railroads already provide almost unlimited movement, there are many
design flaws that allow big abuses of the system.

1) In MP, you can give a unit to a player after you have moved it. The other player can
also move it on his turn. This can double the distance it can move in a single turn. It's a
great way to sneak a spy through good defenses to bribe a city. And it even gets
worse. If you move a unit, give it to a player, and he gives it back during your turn, you can move it again. This can be repeated as many times as you like, giving a unit real unlimited movement. Some have suggested that all you need to do is make so a unit can only move once during any given year, or make it so a unit can't be moved during the year after it was given to somebody.
2) The Free Trade Route Trick is also a good cheat. If you give a caravan or freight to
somebody, they can set up an immediate trade route with you. By doing this, there is
no need to ever have to move a caravan over land or sea… just give it to a player, and
on his turn, the trade route is established. Instant money. You can be on an island, and
move caravans to any point on the globe as long as you have established contact or
built one of the two embassy wonders. Some have suggested that when you give somebody a caravan or freight, it moves to whatever city is considered it's home. Yes,
this is also free movement, but is the lesser of two evils.
3) The I Can Walk On Water Trick is also a good way to increase movement. If you give
somebody a ship, any units on it appear on the nearest shore. You can move your ship
just past the halfway mark of any large body of water, and give the ship away. Your
units remain under your control, and appear on the other side of the ocean, ready to
attack or move. (One additional comment… if you give a boat to somebody else that
happens to be in a stack, the rest of the ships disappear… this must be a flaw)
4) Ship Chaining is also a good one. By using a chain of ships, you can move units from
one ship to another and move them very large distances in one turn. As long as you have your ships in the right place, it's amazing what you can do. We understand the
need to allow the transfer of troops from one ship to another, but there must be someway to limit just how many ships they can be transferred to.
5) Another concern by some is the ability to move a unit into a city using it's last
movement point, then putting it to sleep so that it can board a ship on the same turn.
Combine this with ship chaining, and things get out of hand. Some have suggested that
a units disposition shouldn't be allowed to be changed by a city menu after it's
movement points have been used.


COMMAND MENU CONSISTENCY

This section is only really meant to ask you to be consistent. If there are multiple ways
to give a unit a command (command menu or city screen), make sure that both allow
the same thing.

1) Changing the home city of a caravan or freight is a classic example. In the rules, it says you can't do this. On the command menu, that option can't be selected. In the
city menu, you can. Now, the latest patch fixes this for MP games, but not for regular
games against the AI
2) The free fortify option is another example. If you select a unit in the city menu and fortify it, it is not fortified until the next turn. If you fortify a unit in a city by using the command menu, it instantly becomes fortified.


COMBAT CHEATS

1) The old "unattackable stack" trick is a real cheat. Put a bomber over a stack of units, and no ground units can hit it. Is this really what the designer intended?
2) The "ZOC Avoidance Trick". By using spies or diplomats, you can move your military
units through zones of control. We actually can't agree on whether this is a cheat or
not. But the real question is, was this what the designers intended?
3) By using multiple engineers, you can change a square from fortification to air base and then back again all during the same turn. This gives you the advantages of both,
which goes against what is written in the manual.

OTHER CHEATS

Here are some more things that may or may not be considered flaws. Nobody really knows if some of these were intentional or not.

1) Airbases provide additional shields and food when built within a city radius. They also provide instant railroads. In addition, you can build a line of them, and keep enemy air units and nukes away from specific locations. This can't be intentional, could it?
2) Some people use nukes and cruise missiles to explore or patrol. The though of a missile coming home defies logic. Some have suggested that missiles should be treated
like paratroopers. You pick a target, and the missile goes there.
3) The way food caravans make the food box full can be used in a strange way. You
can send multiple food caravans from city A to the city B, and it will only cost you one
food subtraction for the trade route. The first caravan fills the box, and the second
adds a population. This can be repeated endlessly to build cities up to the max
population without any concern to the availability of food in the city radius. All this for the cost of ONE food trade route.
4) Rush buying military units has caused a lot of discussion. From Civ I to Civ II, they
changed the building process to create three categories: units, city improvements, and
wonders. This was done to stop many of the cheat building tricks we were using in CivI. But, if you want to rush buy a military unit… it is cheaper to buy it in stages. If you
want a diplomat… buy a warrior, change to horse and buy it, and the change to
diplomat and buy that… all in the same turn. This is cheaper than just buying a diplomat
straight up. Interestingly enough, you can only use this trick on units. It doesn't make a difference to do this with city improvements or wonders. Since this difference exists, many consider it cheating. Whether it is or not, isn't the issue. If this was intentional, we just ask that you include information on it in the manual so we know.
5) The "Repeated Commodity" has also caused discussion. Usually, when you build a
freight or caravan, you pick a commodity. After that, that commodity can't be built
anymore. But rare cities have the ability to allow you to produce the same commodity
over and over again. Is this a flaw?
6) The turbo settler/engineer is another one. If you command a settler/engineer to do
something, and then stop it before the action is complete, you can move the settler to
another spot and continue the same task there. Any time spent in the previous square
working on the improvement is transferred to the new square. Bug or feature?

IN CONCLUSION

I'm sure that more examples will pop up in the future. But that's not really the issue.
Since this will be a new game, we know that many of these things will not be relevant.
However, all we ask is for you to consider how we are cheating now, and think about it
as you design this new game. No game is perfect. When it comes out, we will find new
ways to cheat. With a little extra though up front, you can make it harder on us. And,
when we do figure them out, just ask us what they are so you can fix them (if possible)
with new patches.

Thank you for listening to us.

MING

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited June 15, 1999).]</font>

[Ming]

The following thought was posted in the old thread by RAH right before it was closed. It is worth reposting here so it doesn't get lost. And, the idea had merit.
RAH WROTE:
Good work and good summary. After reading it though I did see one item that I thought
deserved additional discussion. The random event. Don't like what you get, reset. If the
random number generator start point is determined in a previous turn, it will be harder to change the outcome. If you remember it from MOOG, you had to at least move ships to different star systems to change the outcome of random events. There were turns
where you were limited to what you could do to change it without screwing up your
strategy. While this doesn't totally fix it, it did make thing really inconvienient to people that like to reset random events. Maybe there's an even better way.
RAH

[mingko]

I would like to comment on RAH's suggestion on random number generator. I would say that it should not be a priority issue. If it can be implemented, it's fine. However, as Civ 2 combat is modelled as a series of battles, the number of random number pre-generated will be limited. Let's assume that you stored 1000 random numbers per turn, it is still subject to abuse such as using other units to attack first to screw up the random number. Even if you store 20 random numbers per unit, you can still change the outcome by using different units to attack. The pre-generated number does allow you to recreate battles even at connection losses.
My suggestion is, if it is not likely to create more bugs or delay a game much, implement it.
One more thing, pre-generated random numbers may also lead to some complaints against 'super phalanx' defeating battleships! This time even reload cannot alternate the results.

[Bird]

Excellent summary Ming. Also, it's nice to have a handy reference guide to cheats to watch out for in MP when I get it.

[Ming]

mingko... It's hard to say if it would help, but I think it would. In Moo2, all the resetting in the world sometimes wouldn't give you the outcome you desire because of it. While in Civ, you can reset forever until you the desired effect.
Anything suggestion to limit the effectiveness of resetting to change outcomes could only help the game.
One suggestion would be to assign what a hut is when the world is developed... how much extra space would this really take? Granted, if the hut provided a science, it would have to look at what you have, so I guess you could always reset for the "right" science... but it would be nice that if it were Barbarians, it would ALWAYS be barbs...
And as far as your comments on the "super phalanx" defeating battleships... I don't see a problem. With the new combat system used in II vs I, this CAN happen, but very rarely.
And you should have to live with the results.
I mean, let's get real here... If you are resetting combat results, why bother playing the game (this was an editorial comment, please ignore)... and if you are, how can you complain if every once in awhile you actually have to lose a battle.
Are there any other possible suggestions that might "help" the resetting problem? Or do more people actually like it the way it is...
Or, as mentioned in the summary (and is probably impossible) would it be nice to have an option to play in a non-cheat or non-reset mode?
Just food for thought. And I would really love to expand our comments for the next summary on this topic. I feel it's an important issue. Do other people think this is important?

[Theben]

I don't think it's that important. If that's what people like to do, it's their business, right?

Going back to missiles for a second, in civ2 there were reasonable defenses you could use against missiles. In SMAC, a lvl 1 reactor missile could kill a lvl 4 reactor, 12 AAA def unit all the time! In fact, missiles in SMAC are guaranteed kills! This needs to be addressed. I think that's the last of my "cheat" problems.

[Alexander's Horse]

Ming

Thanks for the summary. A couple of things which may only apply to my (early) version of Civ II judging by the comments of others:

. As I mentioned before, I can double click on a darkened part of the map and the box describing the terrain will come up.

. A big one I forgot to mention earlier, once either I have built a lot of cities (about 40) or start building cities in the modern period (I'm not sure what is the real reason), I start getting cities which produce units which require no support (not attached to any city - with "NON" after their name). Any units which I designate as attached to these cities also require no support. This is a huge advantage because you could theoretically cycle all your builder and military units through these cities and they would all then require no support. I usually couldn't be bothered doing this but its a big fault which can lead to big cheating.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 15, 1999).]</font>

[mingko]

Ming,
On the SOL + democracy issue, take this example.
You have 2 cities. The early one is small with nearly no trade but lots of shields. The later one is your trade city with 1000 science output per turn. The early city is always in revolt because of excessive military units in democracy. The downfall of government will occur when computer processed the early city. At current implementation, city output are processed from the latest to the earliest. So your civilization gains 1000 science, then revolt, immediately change to fundamentalism to get tribute, change back to democracy after getting the gold.
You need not take my words on the procedure as it should be reproducible. Try it for yourself. It is in fact a minor issue as Civ 3 may not have statue of liberty like wonders (if designers follow the way of SMAC)

[mingko]

I believe the closest workable model for Ironman mode will be similar to save games in Diablo. In this famous dungeon hacking game, for each individual game, you can have only one save game. Your statistics are saved automatically even if you do not want it to be saved. The name of the save game files are supposed to be unknown to you so that you cannot make a backup copy easily. This should be enough deterent for causal cheater.
I would however like to point out some thing else which may not be the intention of the designers. This involves government downfall in democracy together with Statue of Liberty. You can maintain a warlike democracy by having the first city you built hosting all your armies. Let your first city stay in a state of revolt. The government will automatically downfall but Statue of Liberty will allow you to choose your government immediately.

[Ming]

I like what I hear about "ironman" mode...
To satisfy everybody, it would have to be an option, and not standard... and yes, I'm sure people can get around it, but the average person won't be able to...
(and yes Theben, that's why I want it as an option... people should be able to play the game however they want)

Next... the auto kill missiles is really more of a combat issue than cheat issue... heck, some would argue that howies are too powerful... and plus, I would like to spies downgraded... but not my job (thank god)

Now, a point on the SOL one city military...
Yes, SOL does allow you to keep taking Democracy... but doesn't that happen at the start of turn? You have already lost science and money because of anarchy between turns?
Am I just being stupid here, or need more coffee...

[yin26]

-=*MOVING THREAD UP*=-

[Matthew]

I hope you did mention to Firaxis that no everyone agrees that chip chaining is a cheat. Same with repeat commodities.

I do believe that your efforts wil make civ 3 a much better game.

[Ming]

Well Matthew, in reviewing my summary, I didn't make your point on ship chaining. I agree with your point of view, and make that more clear in the next summary (this is only the first one, there will be more)
As far as the repeated commodity, all I ask is if it's a flaw or intentional.
Thanks for your comments.
Alexander's Horse, I have never seen those two bugs before. Has anybody else? They may have been cleaned up in later versions, but they are worth mentioning... thanks.

[Theben]

Alex's horse,
Which version of civ2 do you have? Do you use a modpack? I can attest to the fact that I've had over 100 cities in games and definitely paid support for new units from all cities...

Ming,
The SMAC missile thing...I was thinking it is more of a programming "bug" (or just lazy programming period), like ship chaining, but I'll send it to the COMBAT thread.

[Ming]

Theben, you really think it's a bug? I'm not really familar with SMAC (unlike civ). Tell me why you think it's a bug, and I'll include it.
And a note to everybody... if you are giving examples from CTP or SMAC, please be as specific as possible so I can write them in an intelligent way.

[Theben]

In the sense that ship chaining & scouting missiles are "bugs", yes. In reality more like sloppy programming. But I already posted it in COMBAT so it's a moot point.

[Alexander's Horse]

Theben/Ming: I'll have to check at home what version of the game I have but currently I have a game going with an empire of about 80 cities (including two and a bit conquered civs - I always play 7 civs) and every new city since about 1850 has been producing the units requiring no support - this happens at the point when the computer starts repeating names for new citis (does this happen to others?). I don't use any modpacks or patches.

Surprised noone else has this because I thought it was some kind of default once you had too many cities for the computer to handle or something (eliminating the "you have too many units" problem in Civ I). Strangely, I don't get the ship chaining cheat (which I used a lot in Civ I!). But I definitely get the double click on dark parts and it will tell you the terrain thing (which seems to be another one off).

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 17, 1999).]</font>

[Theben]

The ship chaining in civ2 is slightly different than civ1. You have to click on the units in the stack and then lastly click on the transport you want them to move with.

I've added many names to my civs so if the problem is doubling of names, go to a old thread in the civ2 general section called...uh...lemme get back to you.

Mo in COMBAT says that he's not had the missile problem I've encountered in SMAC...so now I'd like a consensus from others, if possible.

[Theben]

Called "custom civilizations-a dissertation".

[yin26]

Theben,

The missile problem does exist. But it seems to only come from Yang. So if you've killed him early, or are playing as Yang, you won't see to problem. I normally play on huge maps, so killing him early is out of the question.

You CAN disable the missiles, though. You saw that post, right?

[Alexander's Horse]

Theben: I can get units to move from ship to ship. What I can't get them to do is say, embark on a ship and then disembark and move in the same turn (which was possible in Civ I - making ships effectively bridges). Also, I can only get a unit to disembark once during a turn (which cans ship chaining). But hey, don't want to burn up the thread if my copy Of Civ II has cheats which are not common. Thanks for your comments, I'll look up the thread you mention.

"It smelled like victory". Apocalypse Now

[Alexander's Horse]

Sent the last message twice, have erased text in this box.

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 18, 1999).]</font>

<font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited June 18, 1999).]</font>

[DaveV]

This is a REALLY picky one, but I thought I'd mention it. When you start the game, you're not supposed to know where you are: the small "world" map centers on your current position. But there is a brief period after the start of a new game where the map is in its true position, then it recenters on your settler(s). Careful viewing can tell you whether you're near one of the poles and give you a hint which direction to explore.

I may only see the "true" map because I have a very slow computer.

[TCO]

I also believe missiles should not be able to patrol. they should have to go to a target or be transported by ship (only not rail or flying to next city.) the requirement ot have a target ready for the missile and to build missiles in cities close to targets would make for added strategy. Also this would make the missile carrying feature of certain ships more valuable. also, it would be a little more realistic.

[rah]

Hey DaveV, You don't have to look at the map to see where you started, just look at the map coordinates provided, this gives you an even better idea which way to explore. (I know this is not a cheat but maybe the coordinates shouldn't be provided. )
On resetting, Ming you remember some of those D&D type games we played. There was one where there was only one saved game and it saved after events like death or bad teleports so you couldn't reset. I sure it could be hacked but it would make it very inconvienent.
RAH

[Bird]

Ming: the last thing I want to do is get involved in the discussion about cheating that's going on in the Multiplay forum. The next to last thing I want to do is try to figure out whether the cheat posted by Bridgeboy will really work at MP. But someone should figure out whether it really is possible to change the rules.txt files for your civ in MP without anyone else knowing it. If so, the effect would be devastating. Again, NO ONE SHOULD READ THIS AND ASSUME I'M TAKING A POSITION IN THAT DEBATE. I don't know enough about it. But, this cheat, if it exists, is the king of all cheats and must be eliminated in MP.

[Ming]

Bird, I agree 100%. I knew this could be done, heck, people have been talking about it ever since the civII came out. I was under the assuption that these kind of changes would only work if done on the host computer... ie, it would work for everybody.
I could be VERY WRONG ABOUT THIS... I never have tried it or done any changes to my files. If anybody has, let me know... (I hate to mess with my files, I don't want to have load everything all over again after I screw it up)

[Ming]

Bird... MarkL responded in the other thread that he also didn't think it worked for mp...
something about the host checking every once in awhile, or they share the same files...
Bridgeboy responded that he is right, and never mind.
That's one BIG problem solved... Scared the heck out of me!

[Bird]

Whew, that's a relief (MarkL's right, Microprose really would have screwed up big time if this cheat worked). Glad it's much ado about nothing.

[Theben]

yin26,

That's makes some sense; it was indeed Yang pounding my units into the ground. But I never saw the post you refer to. As much as I'd like to, I don't have time to check out every post!