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  • RELIGION 2.1 (Hosted by Stefu)

    Religion 2.1

    (The thread hasn’t hit the 50-post mark yet, but my time as manager is almost up, and I want to have accomplished something… Not too many changes… a few additions, and some cleaning up of spelling/grammar)

    Summary of the thread Religion

    The thread Religion was meant to be channel for ideas concerning religion, or whether that feature should even be in. As you will notice, there is one central idea. Please not about some terms I'm using- if use the term "Some say" or anything like that, that doesn't necessarily mean that this suggestion would be popular, in fact it might be only supported my one person- it's just my way of speaking.

    It is also generally considered that "Religion" refers more to "Belief", since some thought that atheism is excluded by the "Religion" title.

    Anyway.

    1) RELIGIONS AS INDEPENDENT AI PLAYERS

    Central part of this idea is that religion in Civ3 born independently and grow (mostly) independently. They are born as some prophet begins preaching his dogma in one of cities. Government can set its status to be persecuted, tolerated, encouraged or fundamentally worshipped: These choices affect the happiness and growth of particular religions. There are, of course, multiple religions, and there can even be multiple religions born in one civ. Religions have political power. Their growth can be encouraged by money. AI religions could control your own citizens, and could be interacted with, even if they did not have their own innate bonuses and penalties. An AI religion may declare one of your cities to be a Holy site, and you would have to deal with the bonuses, and the problems of such a designation. AI religions could call a crusade against another nation, or against you.

    2) HOLY CITIES & CRUSADES

    In this idea, city where religion pops out has got holy shrine, which could increase happiness/ decrease unhappiness.

    3) DOUBLE POLITICAL CENTERS?

    You would have to build some kind of religious center (Hagia Sophia, St Peters, Kamakura Buddha) in capital or different political center would arise around religion.

    4) CRUSADES

    If Holy City is taken, religion could ask for a crusade to take it back. Religion could also declare crusade whether government likes it or not.

    5) GOVERMENT TYPE SETS WHICH TOLERATION LEVELS CAN BE USED

    For instance, in SMAC terms this means that pacifist (-3 Police) nations wouldn't be able to persecute, while Fundamentalist Government nations would have to fundamentally worship one religion. In Civ terms, Democracies and Republics couldn't persecute, while communists couldn't fundamentally worship (alternate: cannot set higher that Tolerated level)

    6) NOT DENY, JUST MAKE IT HARDER

    Some say that government types shouldn't deny religious choices, just make it harder. Communism should have harder rate of religions spreading, democracy should have hard time persecuting and so on, but it should still be possible, with effort.

    7) ANIMISM / MONOLITHS

    In this model all civs start out with Animism, and can build Megaliths to increase chances of more advanced religions to develop. When religion pops out, ruler can either accept or reject it, with risk of schism.

    8) TOLERANCE LEVEL OF RELIGIONS

    Religions would have Tolerance level, which would set how religion gets along with other religions.

    9) CLERICS/MISSIONARIES

    Some think that if you fundamentally worship one religion you could spread it by means of Clerics/Missionaries. Maybe for monetary and definitely for political gain. If there would be flock of converts in some city, the population would go to your side more easily and would get unhappy in situation of war (Like in C:CTP)

    10) VICTORY CONDITION: UNITE THE WORLD IN SAME FAITH

    In this victory you would have to unite entire world to faith you are using.

    11) NOT MISSIONARIES, BUT PROPAGANDISTS

    In this model instead of Missionaries there would be Propagandists, spreading their agendas (religion being one) to cities. This model also includes some cities being more eager to adopt Fascism, for instance, than other cities, and being more easily bribed by Fascist nations.

    12) TEMPLES DEPENDANT ON WHETHER YOU HAVE A RELIGION

    Some think that you should only be able to build religious structures if you have at least one supported religion, and that only followers of that religion would get some good about that.

    13) EFFECTS OF TEMPLES DEPEND ON RELIGION

    Some have said that effectiveness of temples would vary depending on your religion, for instance Buddhist would have less use of Cathedral (or any kind of other big religious structure) than pagan who wishes to honor his gods.

    14) HOW IS RELIGION BORN?

    Things that could affect the birth of religion could be war, three nasty events in a row, random event (new prophet) and such.

    15) PERSECUTION, THE BIG ATROCITY

    Some want that Persecution should be big atrocity, especially in modern times. Also, persecution would have other drawbacks, such as revolts and loss of population. Persecuted religion could also "win" and have whole strategy backfire. There could be some moral and such bonuses for unifying the country religiously and driving out all that have alien beliefs.

    16) DEVOTION/GROWTH

    Each religion would have Devotion/Growth level, which would decide how does it fare in competition against other religions. In time, high rate devotion religions should replace low/rate devotion ones. If religion has been long around, it should have bigger rate of devotion.

    17) RELIGIOUS FREEDOM

    There should be bonuses for religious freedom in form of immigration and science. However, diversity would also create friction and possibly happiness penalties.

    18) UNHAPPINESS

    Unhappy people should be more willing to convert to new religions.

    19) NO "BEHIND THE SCENES"

    Some say that religion shouldn't work behind the scenes as model 1 proposes. They say that would make really frustrating game.

    20) ETHNICS?

    There has been asks for Ethnic factor as well as Religious

    21) REAL RELIGIONS

    Some people hold that real religions should be used. This side has had serious opposition, especially if they propose bonuses and minuses depending on these religions. People ask who would decide the bonuses and minuses? An example of a bonus would be the "protestant work ethic"

    22) DEAD RELIGIONS

    In this model, all religions would be those already dead to avoid legal and other problems.

    23) REAL "CLASS" RELIGIONS

    Others like that real religions shouldn't be used, but religion classes should be in. (like polytheism, monotheism and animism). There could be several religions that belong to same class. This is maybe the most popular idea, but there are people who hold that this could also offend people, especially with pluses and minuses.

    24) SAME CLASS, DIFFERING RELIGION

    For instance Russian Paganism would be different from Babylonian Paganism. They would have same benefits, but could still be hostile towards each other’s.

    25) RANDOM, FICTIONAL RELIGIONS

    Some like that religions should be entirely fictional. This side usually likes that if there are pluses and minuses, they should be random too. Others ask would this ruin the atmosphere. Turywenzism is a popular choice J

    26) RELIGION DEFINED BY ITS FACTORS

    For instance, is it Pacifist/Militant, Proselytizing or not, and does it support your government or not? There have been suggestions in this area by all camps in real or not discussion.

    27) NO RELIGION

    Some won't want Religion at all. Primary reason would be that you cannot do it without offending someone.

    28) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING

    In this model religions can be customized like Social Engineering in SMAC. You could decide primary structure like Monotheism, Polytheism or Mysticism, important aspects such as afterlife and status of priests and TENETS such as Ascetic, Maltheism or Monastic. In order to enact changes, you need DOGMA, which you could get from priests (city profession) or religious wonders. Dogma then slowly changes your religion. Religion master screen would show the percentages of religions in game, you could also edit religions or set their STATE ACCEPTANCE. Religions also have FERVOR status, which shows how highly religion is held; high FERVOR multiplies the effects. DOGMA can be spent to increase FERVOR. Another suggestion is to have sliding scales, from Secularism to Fundamentalism

    29) RELIGIONS LIKE SOCIAL ENGINEERING, MODEL 2

    This isn't as complex as other ideas - it sets that Religious models would be chosen from Social Engineering. Suggested models are Animism, Polytheism, Philosophical, Monotheism, Reformed, Fundamentalism, Deism and Atheism. There would be Theocracy Government choice instead of Fundamentalist, but it could be only made with religious choices 2,4,and 6. There would be bonuses if civ is both Fundamentalist and Theocracy. And finally, like in SMAC, civs with differing religious choices would be likely to be hostile towards each other. (There has been suggestion that only first four choices are truly needed.)

    30) PHILOSOPHY SOCIAL ENGINEERING

    This idea sticks to same social engineering idea, but replaces Religion with Philosophy. Philosophical choices would affect diplomatic relations, government types available, speed of research, happiness level of citizens, and productivity of citizens. Idea of replacing religion with philosophy would be that it would step around all legal problems while effectively having the effects of religion.

    31) "EVIL" RELIGIONS

    Some suggest that there should be evil religions just to cause harm to civilizations, other warns to steer clear of them. One suggested name is Diabolism.

    32) BONUSES AND MINUSES

    This has been discussion about should differing religions have bonuses and minuses. This has been usually with real or not discussions.

    33) THE TYPE OF GOD SETS BONUSES/MINUSES

    In this idea, the religions pop out in random as in idea 1. They have different bonuses and minuses, depending on what kind of god they worship. If religion is pantheistic, it gains small bonuses in several areas, but has increased inefficiency and upkeep costs. If it is monotheistic, it gains bonuses depending on what kind of god their worshipped one is, for instance is he clockmaker, judge or executioner?

    34) INDIRECT BONUSES

    In this model no religion automatically gains bonuses or minuses, but it may be possible to direct people by way of religion so they, in time, would gain bonuses.

    35) NOT RELIGION, JUST ITS EFFECTS

    Some think that religion itself should be modeled, just its effects: i.e. wouldn’t care what religion you worship, but how do you deal with it - do you tolerate it, persecute it or what?

    36) RELIGION AS TRANSCENDING FACTOR

    For instance, if half of Greeks are in you religion they would be unlikely to like war against you.

    37) SLIDING SCALES

    Each religion would have three ratings - Evangelism, Conviction and Tolerance. These figures would be hidden from player. Evangelism decides how well does the religion convert the others, Conviction how resistant they are to conversion. Tolerance decides how actively will the religion try to be state religion, low-tolerance ones wish to be from all their heart while high-tolerance don't want to be.

    38) RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS IN MODEL 9

    Each populated tile would have its religion, and in end of turns each would try to convert others. These conversions use the Civ battle method, with Evangelism representing attack and Conviction defense. These fight should happen on background, player seeing what happened at end of turn. Missionary units would try to convert tiles they are walking on. For every N (N being parameter set at config file) tiles converted to state religion one citizen would become content, and temples and cathedrals would lower N locally. On the other hand, for every N tiles unconverted one citizen becomes unhappy. If Civ doesn't have state religion, then all religions with -1(lowest) tolerance would create unhappiness, while others wouldn't have effect. Outlawing a religion would make its followers unhappy, but would lower its evangelism rating inside civs borders. Religions would also affect diplomacy.

    39). ATHEISM

    Some claim that Atheism should be very good religious choice, with Religion expiring by Birth Control and temples under Atheism replaced by Sex Shops or something. Popular suggestion for effects of atheism would be science bonus but also unhappiness because life lacks structures.

    40). RELIGIONS IN SCENARIOS

    Some want that in process of scenario building there should be ability to design own religions and place them any way you like, or to disable religions from scenario altogether.

    41). APPEARANCE OF RELIGIONS IN REAL YEARS

    Christianity would appear 33 AD, Islam 500 AD and so on. Then you could switch to it

    42) CUSTOM DEISM

    This is in option where religious minority can create its own religion.

    43) SAME ADVANTAGES WITH ALL RELIGIONS

    Some suggest that if there are different religions, then at least they should all have same advantages. I.e. J.S Bach's cathedral should make as many people happy as Big Mosque. Of Mecca (or Mixed Public Baths for atheist)

    44) BIRTH CONTROL MAKES RELIGIONS OBSOLETE

    Well… the main trend of this idea is in big letters above. This would also mean that emptied churches would be sold like old barracks in Civ1/2.

    45) MORE VARIETY TO RELIGIOUS WONDERS

    Current wonders are very western-based. There are only cathedrals, not synagogues or mosques or like.

    46) SOME RELIGIONS WORK BETTER IN SOME ENVIROMENTS THAN OTHERS

    This is a suggestion of some also. If you live in a desert near water, your god will seem more giving than if you lived in the desert with no water.

    47) TEMPLES DIFFERING FROM STADIUMS

    In this idea Temples and other religious improvements make members of some religion happy (depending on popularity of religion) while stadiums and other non-religious improvements would make fixed numbers of citizens happy.

    48) SCIENCE TEACHERS AS ATHEIST MISSIONARIES

    Reason for this would be that people scientifically taught would be more suspicious of miracles and existence of god in general. Also different missionaries would have different strengths (animist 1, monotheist 2 and science teacher 4…)

    49) NONVIOLENT ACTION

    A poster says that Gandhi was kind of missionary and then ponders about possibilities of incorporating general strikes and such to game. Maybe with kind of supermissionary unit which can start long national strikes? Could this fall under #11, Propagandists?

    50) RANDOM ONE TRUE RELIGION

    In this suggestion, the One True Religion would be randomly chosen in start of game, and it would be up for player to discover which one it is.

    51) CENRALIZATION

    Centralization would be another factor determining the religion, i.e. it could be High (like Catholic church) with one central body controlling the faith, moderate (like in Middle east) or low (like in Lutheran church) which would preach priesthood for all believers. Centralization would say how much religion will "act" for instance how much it would start crusades without your support. (Thread Master Note: Maybe it would decide also how likely schisms would be?)

    52) TURYWENZISM

    For some odious reason Turywenzism seems to be favored name for one fictional religion. It has been suggested that Turywenzism be the barbarian religion. (Hurrah for Turywenzism! Maybe with the Internet wonder we’d get Kibology? – NLT)

    53) DISLOYALTY

    I.e. Religion system without religion. For instance, city of Carthage could like Greeks and Romans, be indifferent for Indians and hate the Chinese for historical reasons.

    54) SIMPLE AI MODEL

    Instead of preset models, religions would act depending civs unhappiness level, technological level, etc…

    55) CRUSADES, THE MODEL 2

    In this model, church can ask for a crusade, and if you refuse, certain percentage of your population (and army) would disappear and reappear near the infidel nation, to battle them. Also, members of crusading religion in that other nation would have chance of rising up.

    56) RELIGIONS CHANGING

    If religions have preset attributes, then they could chance. For instance, Protestantism of Reformation was more positive on science than it is now. Also in start Christianity was more pacifist than today, etc.

    57) NO MINUSES FOR ANY RELIGION

    I.e. Real (or class) religions, which would have only bonuses, no minuses for any. Another suggestion to make it less offensive. Bonuses would of course be about equal.

    58) NAMING

    Religions would be named after civilization they sprung from and also from their class, for instance Chinese Monotheism would be different from Babylonian monotheism. Although similar they could still declare wars against each other.

    59) SPREADING

    It would happen through road system, trade routes, and if you sponsor one religion, with state-run Missionaries.

    60) RELIGIONS DON'T DIE THAT EASILY

    For instance, if Arabic Paganism has strong hold in Russia, and Arabs are conquered by Aztecs, religion wouldn't die out. Its head would move to Russian lands like Patriarch of Orthodox Church moved from Constantinople to Russia (Thread Master Note: Actually not correct) and maybe the religion would later start regaining its position in invading lands.

    61) TITLES

    Like in idea 58, but certain systems would have titles like government titles in Civ2. For instance, Arabic Monotheism would be Islam, while Chinese Philosophical would be Confucianism. To avoid offending people, this could be under the control of the player.

    62) DIFFERENT RELIGIONS IN ONE CITY

    For instance, in city of 10 there are 60% peoples Christian, 30% Atheist and 10% Muslim. Then city would get 60% Christian bonuses and penalties, 30% Atheist bonuses and penalties and 10% Muslim bonuses and penalties.

    63) LEVELS OF COMPLEXITY

    In religion terms, if you choose in start of game to have simple religion would have one religion/civ, while complex setting would be micromanagement nightmare.

    64) UNDER COMMUNISM

    In this model, in Communistic governments all religion bonuses would become penalties (i.e. +2 industry becomes -2) While atheism would have extra bonuses.

    65) ZONES

    In beginning of game you'd have option to start from zone influenced of certain religion, for instance you could choose Muslim influenced zone, Christian influenced zone or Buddhism influenced zone. This would probably mean that Christian religion would spread better in Christian zone than Muslim Zone…

    66) RAELISM

    E.g. Belief that civilization was created by extraterrestrial beings.

    67) TECHNOLOGY TREE

    Religion should be divorced from the technology tree. Is there any reason why we must first "research" polytheism to get to monotheism? Religion should be spontaneous and evolve, but not be under the control of your research.

    68) RELIGION WONDERS

    Other than temples and the like. Calvin would be an example, as would monotheism.

    69) EVOLUTION OF GROUPS

    A society starts out as an homogenous group, which gradually develops opinions. The people vs. you, the people vs. other people, your religion vs. other religions, your people vs. other religions, and so forth. Many chances for gifts, fancy politics, and genocide. (Theben wrote a long and thorough post about this in the 2.0 thread. It’s easier to read it than try to summarize it - NLT)

    70) DIVERSE BONUSES

    If a city is made up of 30% religion A and 70% religion B, it should gain 30% of the A bonuses/penalties and 70% of the B bonuses/penalties.

    LIST OF POSTERS

    Stefu (the thread master, summarizer)
    NotLikeTea (master from July 1-10/99. Summarizer of v2.1 only)
    Willko
    Mo
    MBD
    Crusher
    Kmj
    VaderTwo
    evil conquerer
    Ecce Homo
    Trachmyr
    Eggman
    Lancer
    Doc Dee
    Diodorus Sicilus
    Yin26
    HolyWarrior
    Michael Jeszenka
    CormacMacArt
    Bell
    Aharon Ben Rav
    Mbrazier
    Giant Squid
    delcuze2
    paraclet
    Cartagia the Great
    Chowlett
    The Octopus
    Saganaga Canoer
    EnochF
    Black Dragon
    Kris Huysmans
    Galen
    Flavor Dave
    Francis
    Theben
    Alexander's Horse
    Monk
    Bigcivfan
    Spartan 187
    FinnishGuy

    <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by NotLikeTea (edited July 09, 1999).]</font>

  • #2
    NotLikeTea,

    Great job!
    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thank you, I LOVE summaries!

      It is always difficult to discuss something that does not exist - in this case how to implement religion into a future Civ game. The first great issue is what religion should be; the two most popular ideas seem to be [*]Some kind of AI
      and[*]A bunch of Social Engineering choices. Which one do you prefer and how should it be done?

      Or maybe there are even better ideas?

      ------------------
      The best ideas are those that can be improved.
      Ecce Homo
      The best ideas are those that can be improved.
      Ecce Homo

      Comment


      • #4
        Maybe you could make that the next civ3 player vote question. With more choices of course.

        NLT, great summary! Was it really that difficult to summarize that last post?
        I'm consitently stupid- Japher
        I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

        Comment


        • #5
          Religion can be a factor related to improvement happiness. Say you have a size 3 city on the border with a Muslim empire, and you're a Christian empire. You could have 2 Christian citizens (represented graphically by something like a cross necklace) and 1 Muslim citizen (represented maybe by something like a person wearing a turban) Let's assume that there's a cathedral as a city improvement and that it makes 50% of the unhappy people happy, rounded up. If you build a Christian cathedral, it will only make 1 person happy. (only works for Christians) If you want to get the Muslim happy, you also have to build a mosque. Since there are no Buddhists in the city, the option to build a Buddhist place of worship (What is a Buddhist place of worship called anyway?) won't even appear on your screen. Each of these will require the same technology and be the same in every way (unless a cheaper building is part of the religion's bonus)

          If you have a size 20 city with all kinds of cathedrals and Christian buildings, but a large Muslim population that has no place of worship, and it enters civil disorder because of the unhappy Muslims, the disorder will be a little nastier. Instead of destroying random improvements, it'll become sort of a religious riot and the rioters will destroy the churches (or, if Firaxis wants to be really mean, religious wonders)

          Comment


          • #6
            Interesting idea, but it could get a bit too complex. In the late game, if your nation is a "Mosaic" rather than a "Melting pot", you could have a dozen religions in one good sized city, and it would be a bit much to handle all that...

            (BTW, I think it's Sikhs who wear turbans, not muslims)

            Comment


            • #7
              So that would be an incentive to have a religiously homogenous empire. There's the reason why somewhat might want persecution. There would still be stuff like Colosseums to keep all religions happy at once.

              Comment


              • #8
                Nnnnnice!'

                I'll take the reins from this on. I salute you, NotLikeTea!
                "Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
                "That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world

                Comment


                • #9
                  You'll have to pry those reins from my cold dead hands! Booo!



                  This was fun, if a bit un eventful... Summarizing is much harder than I thought.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    *SLASH*
                    *CRASH*
                    *BUMP*
                    *KAZOOIE*
                    *SLURP*
                    *ARGH*
                    "Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
                    "That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How about a religion which evolves with the civ you are using? Like if You are warlike or peacefull or techknolegists or capitallists tc..... Maybe this will be to hard for the programers though...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Woo hoo! someone posted here! Celebration!
                        "Spirit merges with matter to sanctify the universe. Matter transcends to return to spirit. The interchangeability of matter and spirit means the starlit magic of the outermost life of our universe becomes the soul-light magic of the innermost life of our self." - Dennis Kucinich, candidate for the U. S. presidency
                        "That’s the future of the Democratic Party: providing Republicans with a number of cute (but not that bright) comfort women." - Adam Yoshida, Canada's gift to the world

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Stefu, the UNITS and TERRAIN threads are on their third page already so if you feel jobless...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            yoinks
                            <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited July 28, 1999).]</font>
                            I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                            I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Maybe everyone's used up their religious ideas? Less work for Stefu!
                              I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                              I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                              Comment

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