The Devel's Workshop I - CS Slingshot

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Velociryx
WOW! Holy smokes Arrian...send me that save, if you've still got the game start.....I don't think I've ever played in such a rich starting area! That would rock!

And hiyas, Fed! Glad you liked it!

As to the gold mine, I never did road the gold...no need to, cos it was connected to the capitol by the river.

-=Vel=-

I will post it when I have a chance tonight (or, at worst, tomorrow). I have the 4000bc quicksave, since I've not started any new games. It's actually even better than I've desribed, once you take into account other resources that are reachable fairly early

It's Prince, continents, standard across the board, as per the usual for me.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

1230
- Code of Laws complete.
- Animal Husbandry research started (due to sheep by Antium).
- Confucianism is founded in Antium (oh well, Rome would have been nicer). Free Missionary is sent towards American cities. State religion adopted.
- Bureaucracy is selected.
- Rome worker finishes chop of forest by Rome.

But you didn't finish the Oracle until 1180, at which point you took Civil Service as your free tech... so Bureacracy couldn't have been available until then. Did you start researching CS in 1230bc (if so, why?)... or are you talking about a different civic switch (perhaps to Caste System?).

-Arrian

[Ethelwind101]

Oops,

you're absolutely right Arrian. . Thanks for catching it, i'll go back and correct it.

Of course I didn't get Bureacracy until 1180, when the Oracle came. Sorry for that, my paper notes at 3am got slightly muddled toward the end. *g*

[Arrian]

I know exactly what you mean!

-Arrian

[Fosse]

Because you do not know the answer to this question, every turn you delay its completion is a turn you may get beaten to it. Further, it's a turn that you're not getting the 50% benefit from Bureaucracy, and the quicker that comes into play, the quicker you reap those powerful benefits. IMO, it's worth nearly anything (pop, chop, whatever) to get that Oracle completed as close to snagging CoL as possible, without happening before, of course.

I thought as much. The wonder race has always been the part that ruins this approach for me (Farseer never gives me troubles, but those prereqs are so much cheaper and earlier), not because I couldn't have build the Oracle but because I've been working low produciton tiles in the city so it can idle while I reserach Code of Laws. What I wanted to be sure about in asking was that the goal is to SPEED Code of Laws as much as possible.

Now, does anybody know about the specific game mechanics of researching COL and building the Oracle on the SAME turn? Will you get to pick Civil Service? I had the option to complete both on the same turn with a chop, but decided against it because I didn't know if I could pick the right tech afterwards.

[Velociryx]

Yep, you sure will. I've only managed to time it that closely twice, but in both instances, I got CoL, then the oracle completed, and then I got to pick the free tech.

-=Vel=-

[couerdelion]

It ought to be that CoL is there first since city builds affect tech investment. You also see the new tech options before you get the city build pop-up.

But that's just a wild guess which has since been confirmed above

[Arrian]

I've timed it exactly many times. It works fine. The first thing that happens is you discover CoL and get to pick your next tech to research (this does NOT have to be CS), then you get graphic for founding Confucism and the question of whether you'd like to convert, and THEN you get the oracle graphic with free tech choice popup.

-Arrian

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Arrian
I've timed it exactly many times. It works fine. The first thing that happens is you discover CoL and get to pick your next tech to research (this does NOT have to be CS), then you get graphic for founding Confucism and the question of whether you'd like to convert, and THEN you get the oracle graphic with free tech choice popup.

-Arrian

If you decide to change religion, you will probably not be allowed to change civics because, by that stage in your turn, you will already be in Anarchy.

Judging from Vel's write-up, I think he has already tested this.

[DeepO]

I haven't read much here yet, as I'd like to try it out too... I haven't played Marathon yet.

One thing though (which might have been mentioned): You don't need to time the Oracle to 1 turn after CoL, you've got to time it to the same turn as CoL.

In the turn, discovery of tech will come before you get the free tech from the Oracle. Thus, you can do both in the same turn...

DeepO

[El Conquistador]

Originally posted by Velociryx


Also observe that it will take only 25 turns to research Agriculture. Now, normally, I'm all about getting Bronzworking ASAP, but in this particular case, it's not the best play, and here's why: 22 turns to grow, under optimal growth conditions. 30 turns to make a worker (thus, delaying size two by a total of 8 turns from what it otherwise would be, BUT....five turns before the worker completes, we'll have Agriculture, and before that even, we'll get a border expansion that will bring the corn field into our workable zone. Farming it will add +3 food per turn, which will cut the time to grow to size two IN HALF. This will more than make up for those eight turns "lost" by going worker first, rather than letting the city grow. Also note that by going with Agriculture first, we'll have everything we need to get this city on a paying basis....a farm and a mine. We won't need more than that for quite some time!

Could you please explain how the growing/not growing system works exactly? (Noob question alert) Up 'n til now I just clicked the 'build a granary' button once in a while and assumed this would increase growth, which it did. But how it works exactly I don't know. (Storage?)

Another thing; when about to grow, could you not stop the city building a worker and make it produce something else for one turn, allowing it to pop? (probably another not so smart question)

[Velociryx]

Granaries do speed growth, yep. They do so by storing half of the food needed to grow to the NEXT size Observe the following, in your next game:

In a city without a granary, when it grows from one size to the next, the "food bar" is completely emptied, and must start from "the beginning"

WITH a granary, after growth, you'll note that the "food bar" is still half full, so you have a shorter distance to travel in order to grow again.

And you're absolutely correct. If you want to grow, and you're close to the line, stop building a worker/settler for long enough to let it grow. If you want to avoid growing, but you are happy with the tiles you are working, starting on a settler/worker will "freeze" growth in that city.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

Yep. I like vertical growth to the health/happiness gap, then lots of settlers. I may punch out a settler early on when my city isn't up to the cap(s), but mostly I try to get it up to max size first.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

As promised, Vel...

[Arrian]

The most recent save (the Roman assault)...

[Velociryx]

SWEET! I will download this tomorrow when I get moving around!

-=Vel=-

[Hauptman]

The COOLEST thing about oracle and CoL on the same turn is... You see BOTH the "welcome to the classic era" AND " welcome to the mideval era" both on the same turn...

[OzzyKP]

I started a new game with the Romans on Monarch standard speed. Not intending to do the slingshot, but just hoping to give the Romans a whirl.

Amazingly I start on a different map, but one with gold and corn right by me. Since I was near the coast, but not on it, I decided to forsake the corn (I had flood plains nearby for food) and settle on the coast instead.

Anyways that gold square is so powerful I was able to get the slingshot to work without trying for it. I founded Hinduism, then I built a settler, I invented bronze and a bunch of other early tech. Then I had writing and noticed the oracle hadn't been built yet so I figured what the hell, and I got it to work.

I probably had half a dozen more techs (or more) invented in my game than in Vel's test game above and still got the slingshot to work. That gold square is just way too powerful to use in a test case I think.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

Vel, you rock! Thanks so much for doing these workshops... I've learnt so much from just this thread. You really are a great teacher (coming from someone in the education industry).

I'm going to try the CS slingshot when I've finished my current game... but wanted to post this before this thread died.

Sorry for being a noob, but one thing that's not clear to me is the link between commerce and research. Other than being able to raise your science rate to 100% all the time, does more money add to your "base" research? That is, if I'm already able to run science at 100%, will building an extra cottage or linking another gold mine help my science?

Cheers and keep up the good work!

[Velociryx]

Ozzy: I admit, having the gold hill is a big boon, but you can get similar results with a food/cottage intensive start, so I don't think it's overwhelming, by any means. It means fewer techs to research (or none, if you start with Mining), and more *immediate* gold, but two floodplains w/cottages can net you more in the long run, and are MUCH more commonplace. In fact, 4+ early cottages (even non-river) can give more gold in the "Oracle Timeframe."

Tokyo: Glad you're enjoying the threads and finding them useful! And thanks for the compliment as well! Those are always welcome...

When you give the Slingshot a go, post the results here! I'm looking forward to seeing how you go about it!

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Sorry for being a noob, but one thing that's not clear to me is the link between commerce and research. Other than being able to raise your science rate to 100% all the time, does more money add to your "base" research? That is, if I'm already able to run science at 100%, will building an extra cottage or linking another gold mine help my science?


Yes it will. It works like this: Science is "funded" by way of gold, so any tiles you work that generate gold will increase the number of beakers you generate, provided that your science is not 0%.

The level at which you FUND science is controled by the +/- controls on the main screen, so if you are running 100% science, what you are really doing is generating X gold per turn, and turning 100% of that into beakers.

Note too, though, that science has its own set of modifiers (libraries, universities, etc). So if you have a city that's bringing in ten gold per turn (running 100% science), and it has an academy, you'll actually turn those 10gpt into 15 beakers per turn (bpt) (because the presence of the academy gives a 50% bonus).

-=Vel=-

[fed1943]

Thinking about this Rome and the Oracle:since the begining the city was rich in commerce,but not in hammers.Your excellent play,made it much richer in commerce and also a little more of hammers.
And the Oracle gives away hammers for beakers(let´s say).
So,what for give away the resource you are poor to enhance another you already have a lot?
I would like to ear from you,i.e.to go on your lesson.
All the best,

[Tokyo Sexwale]

Just finished my first successful CS slingshot…. it was tense and interesting with actually a lot of tough choices. I went for a fairly direct approach – I did not have a library or GP completed by the time I got to CS so now I’m playing catch-up. On that and a lot of things. Actually, I made a lot of poor decisions during this but still managed to pull it off somehow.

OK, the game is continents, random everything, Monarch, marathon. (My first monarch game, FYI.) For some reason when I choose random size it always seems to pick “Tiny” for me – not sure what that’s about – so tiny map it is with Egypt (Hattie) as my Civ.

Hmmm…. Opening shot looks promising. A corn (I have Agr already) is always good, and I see a gold not too far off. Forests too – I can chop my lib and Oracle. And a hut.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

4000 BC - After some deliberation, found the city on the starting tile…. I have a floodplain adjacent as well. Un428ly, the hut is empty. Now, research - my first “mistake” was to not go the most direct path for writing, which I think would have been Pottery (have the Wheel) ---> Writing.

The first thing I chose was mining, to get that gold tile up. This could have waited as I didn’t have a worker yet anyway.

3840BC – I have found some marble and more gold south of me. Marble! First interesting choice – it’s not going to be inside Thebes’ borders in a realistic timeframe, so, do I waste time and money building a second city to get me the marble to speed my Oracle or stick with one city?

[Tokyo Sexwale]

3660BC – From scouting it appears I am alone on a small continent. Prolly an advantage for what I’m trying to do…. Just have to hold off the barbs. My warriors – I now have 2 as one popped out of another hut – are both Woody I after skirmishes with wolves and lions. I finish mining and start Mysticism. In retrospect I’m not sure if the was a good idea, but I decided to go for Mystic – Poly – Priest and then Writing to get me closer to CoL But this of course meant no Pottery and cottages.

3560BC – This is a cool little continent with lots of specials – fur, deer, fish, ivory, 2 X spices. Budd is founded in a distant land. Seen a few bears but managed to avoid or defeat them on +75 tiles.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

3320BC – Mysticism done. Start Polytheism (29 turns). Just occurred to me that I will also need masonry to get that marble up and running. And there’s still Bronze Working to do in order to chop all those trees down.

2740BC – Poly done. I found Hinduism. Start Priesthood (18turns). So far I have built a warrior, worker (corn farmed, gold mined) and am just finishing a Settler in my capital.

2660BC – Memphis founded NE of the marble. Start building a Worker to help hook up the marble and chop forests.

2500BC – Priesthood done. Now, more interesting choices. The Oracle will take me 113 turns to complete in Thebes. If I go for CoL now, it’s 64 turns. But first I need Masonry for the marble (14 turns). However, I’m thinking that building a library is still important ‘coz Vel said it was, so I start Writing (23 turns). In the mean time, I start the Oracle in Thebes, planning to switch to a library when I get Writing.

At this point I was also still planning to get Bronze to chop the Oracle.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

2080BC – Writing done. Now I realize bronze won’t help me. It’s science I need. That second city has cost me and now I have to run at 90%. It’s 72 turns to complete the Oracle. (Thebes has grown a bit.) And I still need Masonry to bring that down. CoL is still at around 60 turns. Writing and library did not need to happen either.

1860BC – Masonry done. Start CoL (49 turns). A few turns later my workers complete the quarry, and the Oracle will be complete in 21 turns! In the mean time I will build a library to offset the difference.

1390BC – CS slingshot successfully completed! CoL and Oracle finished in same turn and I grab CS. Switch to Caste System / Bureau.

[Tokyo Sexwale]

This was a lot of fun for me. For the longest time I was expecting someone else to finish the Oracle while I was waiting idle for about 20 turns completing CoL. I think the Tiny map helped…. would be interesting to see if tI could have done it with more than 2 – 3 other Civs out there.

I also did not have too many problems with Barbs. I did not see any Archers or Axemen, maybe as I didn’t have the techs. The warriors who came were easily defeated by my fortified Woodies on forested hills. I’m going to have a look around but I don’t think any Barb cities have been established on the continent yet.

The tech path I took was Mining – Mystic – Poly – Priest – Writing – Mason – CoL. (And I started with Agr and Wheel.) As I said, I think writing was unnecessary and mining could have been done after Mystic.

So, right now I don’t have Fishing, Hunting, Archery, Animal Husb, Pottery or Bronze Working. I have roads all over the place ‘coz my workers can’t do anything else (only mines and I don’t think I need more in the Thebes.) Bronze Working is now quite cheap (thank goodness we’re alone on the continent) and I think I’ll go for that next and then try to chop the Pyramids in Thebes. (Seven forests within city radius.)

Thebes is close to getting a GP despite having only the Palace in it and nothing else. The citizens were unhappy for some time because the city grew to size 6 and had no temple and no warriors guarding it, but I didn’t need the hammers to finish the Oracle anyway and there was no more gold unworked in the city radius for science.

Anyway, overall, a good game and I think I’m going to play it out. This vertical thing is interesting…. I’d like to see what other advantages could be gained. Like maybe the cultural boost from an early Eif Tower. Or one of the other later wonders.

[Velociryx]

Thinking about this Rome and the Oracle:since the begining the city was rich in commerce,but not in hammers.Your excellent play,made it much richer in commerce and also a little more of hammers.
And the Oracle gives away hammers for beakers(let´s say).
So,what for give away the resource you are poor to enhance another you already have a lot?
I would like to ear from you,i.e.to go on your lesson.
All the best,


This, unfortunately, was just a side effect of the random map. I knew that the terrain would support a CS Slingshot, so I demonstrated the technique here, however, you are quite right that it would have been greatly assisted had our production been better.

As it was though, I still think it was the right move to make, because we are now set up for pretty much the rest of the game, tech-wise, and that's a compelling advantage, even if it did cost us some of our (already scant) production. I'm thinking that with good tech, and the ability to build hammer-intensive cities elsewhere, we should be quite safe.

And Tokyo...congrats on the first Monarch game and the first successful CS Slingshot! Looks like you did pretty well with it, too! Couple mistakes that you caught yourself, so I'd say you're off to a flying start!

My recommendation would be to replay it at least a couple more times from 4kBC and see if you can "smooth it out" as it were (you already mentioned a couple things you regarded as mistakes or stuff you were unhappy with, so I'd start there, and log the difference it makes). Time-frame wise, you're jamming....1300 BC....seldom will it be completed before then, so you're good to go!

-=Vel=-

[gus_smedstad]

Originally posted by fed1943
So,what for give away the resource you are poor to enhance another you already have a lot?

The Oracle is generally a bargain no matter what you take as a free tech since the trade rate is usually 1 hammer for 2 beakers or better, even if you don't have marble. The CS slingshot is extreme in this regard because the trade rate is 1 hammer for 10 beakers.

Even if you don't have a huge hammer production, that's more than worthwhile.

- Gus