Expansion in the early game

[SandMonkey]

So I've been playing Civ4 since Christmas, and despite all of the wonderful information I can read on here, I'm still having trouble finding the correct rate of expansion in the early game. In four games on Noble, with various settings, I have run the gamut on how to screw up the early game. A couple of times I've managed to expand too quickly, and felt the pinch financially. In one of the games I tried to correct this, but ended up expanding too slowly and the AI captured most of the good resources, and were flat out killing me in the tech race.

In the early game I leave science maxed for as long as I can, but obviously at some point you need to start changing the slider to get some cash inflow. I understand that as you expand, your city maintenance increases as a function of both distance from capital and by number of cities. So when you build a new city, your per turn maintenance increases and therefore your income decreases. In games where I expand too quickly this build up of maintenance has had a crippling effect on my economy, specifically on my ability to research at a reasonable rate. A couple of times I have been forced to reduce my science rate to 0% just in order to stop my civ from bleeding cash.

I do realize that each additional city in the early game can have a major effect on future growth. In one game specifically I plopped down several cities in a short period of time and watched my science level tank. Luckily I had a save from just before I built all of the new cities. Upon reload I delayed the building of the new cities until my civ was financially able to support them. Since my cash never went into the red, I never had to lower science, and future anguish was avoided.

While I lucked out in that situation, I haven't been nearly as lucky in other starts. I understand that each new game is for the most part unique and must be treated as such, and that the geographic surroundings of my civ will be the ultimate factor in determining where and how quickly I can expand, but are there any truly obvious strategies that I am missing when it comes to early expansion? A solid rule of thumb, i.e. wait until you have +3gpt before building a new city, or anything like that?

[Blake]

Try focusing on science a bit more.
Get writing quickly.
Build a library and create 2 Scientists (usually in your capital).
Use the Great Scientist to create an Acadamy in your capital.

If your economy tanks, the 2nd great scientist can be added a super-specialist and will add 9 beakers/turn, which is enough to dig you out of the hole - by getting the critical techs like:
Code of Laws: Courthouses.
Literature: Great Library.
Currency: Extra trade routes, marketplaces.

Getting writing early is just really critical. As long as you can create scientists you can dig yourself out of nearly any hole.

Also if you enjoy expanding early but find it difficult to pay for then Organized and Philosophical leaders might suit you well, both make it easier to continue to research while expanding aggressively.

[xxFlukexx]

"i.e. wait until you have +3gpt before building a new city, or anything like that?"

Ewww, nononono. You want to found a bunch of cities and then when they grow, they will pay for themselves. It depends on the map size and how much room you have to grow (some maps like lakes are very huge) but you should be able to get by with building 2 new cities right off the bat (through chopping or growing your capital and building settlers the old fashioned way) wait for the new cities to grow to 3-4, put in a cottage or two and then exapand and grab 2-3 more cities (and if land is getting scarce, grab as much as you can)

You want to make sure your newly founded cities are close to your capital as possible without a lot of overlap. Actually overlapping cities isn't a bad idea as cities don't grow that fast in the beginning. Best sites for cities is around resources and on rivers, since one cottage on a river tile will net you 2 commerce (and growing) and add that to the base 1 commerce every city gets and you get 3 commerce, so that city should pay for itself.

A good rule is stop expanding when you get to 70% or 60% science if you need a rule. And after you cut your science rate down you need to build cottages and you will slowly see your cash rate increase, cottages are very important.

[MightyTiny]

I actually recently found that get the best results when I expand fairly quickly early on.

It helps if your capital is at a forested location - you can then aim for bronze working quickly, and chop forests selectively (and remember chopping outside your city-squares gives you hammers too), to rush settlers, and maybe the oracle and/or pyramids after the intial expansion phase.

If I get a close neigbour, I usually aim for an early war, taking him by surprice, and hopefully out of the game. I keep his cities.

This kind of a thing can lead to financial trouble early on, but you can avoid being left too far behind in technology by building cottages; let cottages create the commerce to run your research, and you can run very low science rate and still advance at a decent pace.

In one recent game, playing the Persians, I founded two cities, then found that Monty founded one right at my border, practically BEGGING me to start a war. So I mass produced my lovely Immortals (a great, cheap to produce unique unit that replaces charriot), and conquered Montezuma's empire very fast, taking on four new cities, that he'd managed to found. (Beware though, that in this game I had turned off the barbs, as I needed a break from them, and was trying out new strategies, wanting to be able to concentrate on the other civs early on.)

At this point, my tech rate was at 0%, and I even had strikes going on, with a few units being disbanded to get me back into a + sign economy.

Survived that, built workers and cottages, and by the time I had managed to get my sci rate up to 30% or so, I was surpriced to find that I hadn't fallen back in research much at all, and in fact, very shortly after, with my cities commerce kicking in, I took the tech lead, with my tech rate still low.

I won the game easily.

So the lesson? COTTAGES RULE! If you've got a large empire, you can use cottages, and other commerce creating squares to drive your research, instead of running a high science rate.

And so you can even afford near-bankruptsy if you get great cities, and a large empire in the trade.

The toughest thing was to resist the temptation to go for early religions, and instead concentrate on getting bronze working early. This game was the first one where I addopted a state religion from another Civ, and that turned out to be a smart move actually; before adopting religion I waited to see which religion was going to give me the most useful ally nations, and only then converted. Was best friends with Isabella the first time EVER.

That is actually not a bad idea; if you want to get strong allies to last you throughout the game, the thing to do is to wait to see which religion is getting the upper hand, and then adopt it; and also, agree to open borders with those you are going to be friends with only, and when someone asks you for open borders, don't agree straight away, but first ask them their opinions on leaders you want to be friendly with... only agree to open borders if they like the same leaders you want to be friendly with. This way you don't get too many diplomatic penalties for either canceling deals with someone later, or refusing to cancel.

[Rowick Hepan]

IMHO

I've only played a few games of CIV IV so far but I find the following works well:

At the start of the game on Prince level my cities are happiness 4. So first up I build a second scout and a bunch of warriors and concentrate on building my city up to size 4 as quickly as possible. As soon as my capital hits pop 4 I turn it into a settler / worker pump (city won't grow any further while builiding settlers or workers)

When my capital churns out it's first settler I set up a second city who then also builds military units until it hits size 4.

repeat, repeat, repeat.

I build about 1 worker per city and use them to develop any resource I find and build a few cottages on floodplains / grasslands so that I end up with high food and commerce in my early cities.

The military units I build while the cities are reaching pop 4 can patrol for barbs and garrison the new cities my settler pumps will start churning out.

By the time a city reaches size 4 it can build settlers quickly and produces enough commerce to pay for as much expansion as you can handle.

[Strategist83]

Also review my thread which deals with much the same issue: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...hreadid=147290

[Willem]

Founding a religion and building a shrine can be helpful as well. That one gold per city that the religion ends up being established in helps alot, especially if it starts to spread to other civs.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SandMonkey
In one of the games I tried to correct this, but ended up expanding too slowly and the AI captured most of the good resources, and were flat out killing me in the tech race.

You don't have to expand very fast, you can find city on locations which give you good resources. It doesn't matter if they are a distance away.

That's why it's important to crank out scouts very early in the game. Not only you can find all the good spots and grab them first, but you also get to visit the lion's share of native villages.

[Arrian]

There are lots of ways to fund your empire. Some of the ones that spring to mind:

- found religion, build shrine, spread religion (add gold-boosting buildings in the holy city, when available). Add great merchants and extra great prophets to this city as super specialists.

-cottages.

-coastal cities + lighthouses and harbors, especially with Great Lighthouse and/or Colossus. I've had empires whose financial survival in the early going was almost entirely predicated upon working coastal tiles boosted via the Colossus. Cottages came later on.

-certain techs (currency) and civics (free trade for extra trade routes - if you can take advantage of them... which is another topic altogether. Mercantalism can, in certain situations, be quite worthwhile, despite its upkeep cost. I tend to run Slavery deep into the game, because it's zero upkeep... stuff like that).

-traits: financial and organized both help, in different ways. Other traits can help indirectly, of course...

-Blake's suggestion is the other side of the same coin - how to boost your tech rate w/o actually spending much on science (by % on the slider). The early Academy is quite helpful (although I tend to shut down the 2 scientists once I have it, and use the pop to assist in building more stuff, like settlers and, oh, the Great Library ).

As for trait choice, I suggest three possibilities for you:

1) ORG/FIN - Washington
2) ORG/PHI - Mao
3) ORG/IND - Roosevelt (the better to build those wonders with, yes, precious).

-Arrian

[fed1943]

I like to expand as fast as I can.Expansion,ie more cities,is good for production (military) resources (military again,health,happy) and safety space.But it comes with a huge price:gold.So,the good option (if that exists in the game)would be to couple the expansion with an increment of commerce/gold.That is knowned;also told the various ways of the told increase of gold and commerce.The problem boils down of timing and options:
Expand somewhat first and then correct the economy,or the opposite?
Try first increase the commerce(cottage,Gscientist)or the gold(cottage,found religion,Prophet)?
I think the problem remains the same,whether the cities are fouded or conquered.
As you surely guessed I´m not trying to teach you,but to learn.I will read carefully your answers.
Best regards,

[Hauptman]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


You don't have to expand very fast, you can find city on locations which give you good resources. It doesn't matter if they are a distance away.

That's why it's important to crank out scouts very early in the game. Not only you can find all the good spots and grab them first, but you also get to visit the lion's share of native villages.

with first crack at the lovely native girls?

[Blake]

-Blake's suggestion is the other side of the same coin - how to boost your tech rate w/o actually spending much on science (by % on the slider). The early Academy is quite helpful (although I tend to shut down the 2 scientists once I have it, and use the pop to assist in building more stuff, like settlers and, oh, the Great Library ).

What can I say, I'm cheap .
Altough I only rarely have the 2 scientists in my capital, I MIGHT generate the first great scientist there, but typically I'll generate subsequent ones in other cities.
The capital is far too valuable to waste on specialists.

[Arrian]

It depends. Sometimes the capital is perfect for it - lots of food specials and not too many hills. Early on, with the health/happy caps limiting your vertical growth, I've often been able to run a specialist or two with no real impact on production. Then, when the caps lessen their grip as more resources come online, I tend to do away with the specialists, grow to cap, run more specialists, rinse, repeat.

By the way, in a recent game the Russians had one of the ultimate specialist cities I've ever seen. Moscow had FIVE seafood specials (4 clam, 1 fish, IIRC). It had a total of 4 or 5 land tiles w/in its fat cross. So it sucked for production (although all land tiles were forested, and some where hills, so it wasn't that bad) but OMG could it pump out great people and commerce. Peter kept up in the tech race despite being tiny and getting beat on by the Aztecs... basically because of that one city.

-Arrian

[Blake]

Here's my logic.
The capital usually has the best resources and a good balance of them. It will make the best wonder pump bar none, in nearly all cases.
It also has the best oppurtunity to develop cottages into towns, mainly because it can get started on them much earlier. Once it has towns, they will provide maximum benefit under Bureaucracy, which specialists do not get multiplied by (well except engineers/priests).
It'll also pump out units very quickly, and getting units completed faster is a good thing.

[Arrian]

Definitely, my capital builds most of my wonders. I actually rarely build many cottages next to my capitol. It's typically farms (and fishing boats if applicable) & mines. So I get production + specialists, but lose some commerce. I'm ok with that. Especially if I'm playing a PHI civ.

-Arrian

[Shaka II]

I don't go above 4 cities to start, but it depends on many factors, such as map size, difficulty level, number of civs. For good research you need lots of money and that means cottages. Get them down early. Pottery is a priority after bronze working to chop your libraries to boost your science and to expand your cultural borders. Don't over expand, because it will likely end up in financial disaster. Much better to have several thriving cities, than a bunch of small cities that drain your finances, can't be defended, and irritate the AI, because you're too close to them. Expansion will come when you are ready for it. But the expansion will (for the warmonger) come by acquiring the civilization of a neighbor.

I generally only build one worker followed by a settler in the capital, since the capital is generally too important to be used for this purpose. You want the capital to be large and have many cottages, but it must also have reasonable production. So, daisy chain the settler builds and worker builds. One worker and settler per city is about right. Chop, chop, chop, ... Leave some trees for environmentalism (health and happiness) if you can. I like to use them to chop in libraries, the other buildings can be built through normal production, unless you're on highlands, in which case, chop away with glee.

It's possible to fall into the trap (most of us have) where you have great production, but no money to research. Early scouting even with a warrior, will enhance your early treasury, and may last all the way to alphabet or monarchy at 100% research. but don't count on it. Sometimes you only get maps, especially if you're using a warrior to pop goody huts. But with early cottages, where the goody hut money runs out, the cottages take over, allowing 100% research for quite a while.

So, the key is get large cities, and try not to let them cap out. Get the luxuries hooked up, and beeline for monarchy, where each garrisoned unit adds +1 happiness. In my capital and other large cities, my garrisons are adding about 6 or 7 happy faces each, allowing 13 population, instead of being capped out at 7 or 8. That additional population, means that several of those extra cottages are bringing in cash and growing into villages and towns. Your compact core civilization will be much safer with a good garrison, especially when other civs peer into your city and see it heavily defended, they'll be much less likely to consider taking it for themselves.

After monarchy, beeline for alphabet, and trade monarchy for the missing techs. Only as a last resort trade alphabet.

After 4 cities are thriving, it's time to add a few more, maybe two or so. Then if your neighbor's borders are closing in, it's time to build an invasion force and take the cities of one of your (weaker) neighbors. Your superior research and production allows building the best military and fuels the expansion of your empire. As you acquire new territory, you'll have new luxuries or health resources that will allow your cities to grow further, or at least reduce the garrison size, freeing them up to be used in the field, or to garrison the captured cities. The latter approach is for the war monger or builder/warmonger. You can simply grow your own cities, but at the harder levels, the AI is so much better at it, that it makes more sense to capture them.

I agree with the poster above, Washington (ORG/FIN) is great for research, and is usually ahead in tech as an indication of how strong these attributes are together.

[MasterDave]

How fast to expand really depends on many factors, not the least of which is difficulty level. This is mainly because of the AI research speed, which is directly connected to difficulty level. At Monarch level, the AI techs up very fast relative to lower levels, so if you expand or conquer many cities early and find yourself forced down to a 40% science rate or lower, then you usually fall behind and will have a hard time recovering.

Generally, I try not to let science fall below 60-70% at the worst, and will not build more cities until my economic buildings get me back into the black (courthouses, currency, etc.). Lots of cottages or resources with lots of commerce such as spices help make this happen faster. I usually try to found one or more of the early religions, and getting a holy shrine early on (using the GP from Stonehenge or the Oracle) really helps turn the corner when trying to fund your first three or four cities. Courthouses are the magic buildings that allow your empire to grow beyond your first half-dozen cities, and marketplaces in your financial cities (10 or more gold income) really help drive your economy. The Great Lighthouse can be very helpful in funding early expansion if you are not landlocked. If your economy is still struggling, a merchant or prophet super specialist can be hugely helpful, especially if you place him in a town with a marketplace.

Playing a civ with Financial can be helpful until you get more practiced at growing your early economy.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Hauptman
with first crack at the lovely native girls?

It's good to be the Despot

[Bogdanovist]

One things I've noticed is that most people judge the science rate as a measure of your science output which is just plain wrong. If you have a few cities with low maintance and run at 90% science of a bunch of cities and run at 40% you may still be outputting more beakers in the latter case. What you need to do to compare strategies is keep an eye on the total beaker output of your empire. The science rate alone means nothing but reading this thread it seems to be taken as gospel.

DO NOT regulate your growth by what science rate you have! If your total research suffers then by all means curb growth, but in my experience more cities means more research even at a lower science rate, and once they are developed you will be way ahead in total beakers gained than someone with half the number of cities.

Of course there are many other factors to consider, but my point is that using the science rate as a measure of the health of your research is rubbish.

[joncnunn]

For every 10% science rate you have to lower, that's 10% more income your new city would have to raise just to break even.

Does this pay for itself the same turn: With a handful of cities, yes. But later as the cost of each city grows and the amount a size one city brings in is less a percentage of your current empire, the break even point moves further and further away.

On high levels like Monarch, you can not afford to crash your economy. That Dye city with lots of swaps in it's working raidus : Very poor city site pre Iron Working. Not even a good one until you start reseraching the Calendar.

[Urban Ranger]

The Calendar is a very good tech to get, particularly so if you have lots of happiness resources near your starting location.