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  • Economics/Trade thread 1.2, hosted by: Harel

    <U>ECONMICS/THREAD SUMMARY 1.2</U>

    Hello everyone! I am now the new thread master of Economics and trade. I hope we can continue the excellent work of Pythogras. In order to put things into speed, I posted here the old summary I was asked to create by Yin a few days ago.
    I intend to change this model, to a more easier to read and manage thread, with more elborate summaries of the great ideas people suggested.
    Expect that in the upcoming 1.3.
    In the mean time, take the time to read what we have now. If I missed something, as ever give me a howler.

    A. Economical concepts
    B. Carvan issue.
    C. People quotes.
    D. List of thanks.

    <u>A. Economical concepts</u>

    1. Having a number of key materials per Era ( copper, oil, etc. ). If you lack enough of those materials you gain minuses to production. Only the used materials for the Era are showen up on the map. You may trade resources with other civ's. ( Eggman, Korn469 )

    2. Having a budget screen. The usefulness of city improvements are decided by a Tax slide: how much money you put in Eduction dictates the bonus gain per schools, etc. Military is divided between the upkeep of the units, and give minus/bonus to morale. Wealthfare money gives extra happiness. In democracy / Rebpulic, the Sanete may demend minimum budgets to some parts. ( Harel )

    3. Having 3 global types of resources: Fuel, building matertials and exotic, instead of shields. Works in other ways like idea number 1. ( Flavor Dave )

    4. Economy model should be like Imperlism, you find the resources with a
    Geologist unit, then build roads to the patch and build "mining buiding" on
    the patch and move the resource to the closest city. ( Colon )

    5. Besides resources, a consideration to the processing ( industry ) has to
    be notice as it's the main issue in economy.( Colon )

    6. You should be able to trade with barbains. ( Diodorus Sicilus )

    7. Some nations based soley on trade. It should get much bigger economical
    bonus from trade routes. ( Diodorus Sicilus )

    8. The more types of luxury goods you have, the happier the people are. Trade goods should be seperated from gold and have four main type of luxury items. Also, combing many food sorts will give a happiness bonus. ( Ecce Homo, Korn469, Stefu )

    9. You should be able to be a third-side trader contractor: be able to ship resources for some civ to another civ, gaining a small percentile of the money yourself ( Holland traded for most of eastern europe in the past. ( Harel, Mindlace, Diodoros Sicilus )

    10. City should be able to build several things at the same time ( with sliders to refelt percents of labor ). ( Korn469 )

    11. Have a new type of civlian: builder. ( Korn469 )

    12. Base/City squres don't produce anything, they give a bonus to outlaying squares. ( Korn469 )

    13. Each city can build as many Improvements as it has Population, with perhaps a bonus at the start so you aren't stuck with only one or two improvements for umpteen early turns - each city could start with a Base Number of improvements you can build. ( Diodorus Sicilus )

    14. The number of tile used should be as the city size, not size+1. ( Isle )

    15. City should be depended on one another, like in modern economy. Be able to group cities to a shared pool of resource and support. ( Druid, Hans2 )

    16. Having "contracts" to reduce micro-manage. ( Don don )

    17. Have commodities, like in Colonization. Have around 10 resources and 10 finished goods and revolve the economy around them. They are replaced with more fitting ones along history and deplet over time. ( Don don, Bulrathi, Diodorus Sicilus, Zorloc )

    18. Be able to build docks, airports and the like in other country area by being a sum of money. ( Trachymr )

    19. Have "two" level of trade - internal and forgien. Forgien will be automatic, ala MOO and internal economy will be based on commodities. ( Fugi the Great )

    20. Trade advisors, like SMAC governors will automaticly control all trade. ( Fugi the great )

    21. Trade will also generate shields ( production ), not only trade arrows ( CapTVK )

    22. If you have commodites, controling most of the world supply of a certain item allows you to get more money for it, Monopol of the market. ( Pythagoras )

    23. The type of Goverment and Market status dictate the control on your trade, and the income gotten from it. ( Pythagoras )

    24. Black market: automatic caravans created in cities with a high criminality, or to trade goods which are greatly lack, or trade routes with enemies. You gain no income, and it's a drain on your trade cause it lower the income of your trade. Needs military units to destroy. ( Pythagoras )

    25. You can build trading posts, which act as airports and fortress ( maybe give a small bonus to trade in near by cities? ). built by explorers. ( Flavor dave )

    26. Spys can destory trade routes. ( Flavor dave )

    <u>B. Carvan ( only trade ) issues:</u>

    1. Have the trading bonus relate to supply and demand. ( Bubba )

    2. Have an more expensive sort of caravan which delivers finished goods, not materials, and give a bigger bonus. ( Bubba )

    3. Having pirating and pillaging the trade routes, ala CtP. ( Bubba, DanS )

    4. Caravans automaticly move back and forth, not just trade routes. ( Pythagoras )

    5. Carvans need to evolve along history, with sea and air types. ( Pythagoras )

    6. Trade should be a part of diplomacy, automaticly created a "carvan" building contract. Good trade will increase the level of diplomatic connections. ( Pythagoras, Hans2 )

    7. War should cancel all trade bonues. ( Jele2 )

    8. Be able to give military protection to carvans by arming them. ( bab5tm )

    9. Have air-lift carvan which can help besieged cities ( give them less damage from artilery, you get a trade bonus, civ attitude to you is better ). ( EnochF, Harel )

    10. Have SMAC-type way-points for carvans. ( Trachmyr )

    11. Have a MOOII trade, gaining an automatic money&Science bonus, no caravans. ( Prefect )

    12. Once a caravan is built, he is automaticly sent to the most profitable
    town, and gives and automatic bonus ( no actul movement ). ( Harel )

    13. Caravans act like spies and show parts of the other-side maps. ( Utrecht )

    14. Caravans are automaticly built by the AI, and sent. The entire trade process is done by the computer for you, a bit like SMAC. ( Lancer, Pythagoras )

    15. Be able to hire caravans, and get a percent of the income. ( Trachymr )

    16. If you enable free-market SE, some of the caravans will belong to a private company, and you get a percent of the income by tax. ( Ecce home, Harel )

    17. A new wonder that will increase the movement rate of caravans. ( Flavor Dave )

    18. A new city improvement to increase the output of caravans ( Diodoros Sicilus )

    <u>C. People quotes:</u>

    "With just two or three materials per era, this could do a good job of simulating the need for vital materials. If you can't get them (see Japan after the US cut off its oil supply in WWII) you are going to fall behind which forces war. It also allows a civ to capture and/or cut off key materials and devastate a civ economically. Run out of oil - production drops by 50% - OUCH!Stockpiling in case of war is a good idea too. Plus, the demand for those key materials would grow as the civilization gets bigger (more cities) so you would need to make sure that you can secure those resources to expand"
    ( Eggman )

    "Actually, from the beginning civilizations had to trade for critical materials: copper and tin are relatively rare as recoverable deposits, but they are both required for Bronze. The bronze age in Europe was marked by long-range trade in tin, all the way from Cornwall in England to the Mediterranean. The trick is that most of this early trade was not with other (rival) civilizations, but with what, in game terms, are 'barbarians'. Give us more flexibile barbarians, who sometimes trade because ( for instance ) they've got the tin you need and you've got civilized goods like wine that they want, and you can put critical resources into the Trade System and realisticaly spread over the map and still not cripple some resource-deprived civ from the start. Also, in most of those early trades, the civ got the better of it, in that they also made money in the trading".
    ( Diodoros Sicilus )

    "Resource Development: In order to develop your resources, you use special units similar to the settler units of Civilization. You start out with a prospector and an engineer. The prospector searches for various minerals that can be found in the hills and mountains, and the engineer builds railroads and ports that are necessary to transfer those goods to the capital. Unlike Civilization, virtually all your production is centralized at the capital. Thus, in order for those resources to be of any use to you, you must have a path, either by sea or by railroad, to your capital. Later in the game, as your technology advances, you gain the ability to build additional units which can further improve on your resource squares."
    ( Colon )

    "For Civ this could work by having 10 raw materials, and 10 manufactured goods. All of these will be shared between all of your cities. Then to trade, you make an agreement with another Civ (similar to CTP) and a caravan creates a trade route from your closest city to their closest city. Then your caravan (or whatever) will travel this path continuously - and can be pirated."
    ( Zorloc )

    "Why not have a real budget in civ III? For example, let's take hospitel. Each one, takes lets say 2 gold per turn? Why not have an advanced budget section, when you have "Health care". Here you allocate a budget that is shared between ALL hospitels in the empire. The more money is per hospitel, the more useful it will be. The more useful is will be, the happier people will be and will live longer. Same thing with schools ( "Education" section ), that will decide how much +% to research it gives, army which decided how useful the units will be ( a minus if support per-unit is below standard, a plus if above, etc ). You can even have the council fight for different increase in sections. In the realigon section, someone said that the popes ( or other big-shots ) of the religon would be like civ's inside your civ, you will need to debate with them. Let's show up how terrible are the democartical struggle for budgeting in civ III. Each party would demand something else... This could be fun...
    ( Harel )

    "I think the trading from both SMAC and Imperialism should be used. The basic average everyday items that get traded if ou are a friend of another nation should be automatic like in SMAC. Then there are certain commodities like wheat - bread, oil -petroleam, iron ore-steel-guns, uranium - plutonium ... that should be traded on the market like in Imperialism ( the important things you need to grow a nation / empire ). You could then do what the US does with Russia now with the selling of wheat to them when they have a surplus. Could also get food if there is a major famine in your country. Trading for oil like the world does with OPEC. If you don't have oil, tanks don't move and planes don't fly; so make sure you have enough to get you through a war - don't be stuck like Germany or Japan in WWII. Iron ore/steel production with different nations trying to corner the market or dumping it on other countries to kill their industries ( Japan was accused of this ). If you don't have steel, then you don't make tanks or factories. If you don't have uranium to make plutonium, then you don't make nukes, try getting it in trade or on the black market. Not every nation on this planet is blessed with an abundance of goods. Countries like Japan have to rely on the exports of other countries to stay alive."
    ( Fugi the great )

    "Please, please, Please no comodities as in Colonization. This system is ok with a very few "centers", but putting a system with detailed commodities in a many-centers (cities here) game like civ produces mind-numbing amounts of micromanagement. I intentionally would stop expanding in Colonization (even though I would have liked to strategically ) because the micromanagement burden became rapidly intolerable after about 10 cities."
    ( Mark_everson )

    "Having industry treated like it is in Imperialism is a VERY BAD IDEA. I like Imperialism but in that game the economics are the main focus. Not so in Civ. Considering that in my experience Imp1 games tend to last a whole lot longer than Civ2 games, having a complex economic model in Civ3 will make the game unplayable. You know that joke that if you want realism in Civ, you should play two turns and then die of old age? Well, that wouldn't be too far from the truth."
    ( Eggman )

    "If you have several Production Improvements ( Barracks, Armories, or Logistics Depots for military units, Mills, Factories, Robotic Plants for equipment, Shipyards for ships, etc ) you can build one New Thing for each such improvement OR you can combine several such to build one thing faster. Each Improvement would add to the cities total Manufacturing Points, which could be divided or applied as wished.This would also allow/cause you to concentrate the production of certain cities: you would tend to have, as countries' did historically, a Steel City that cranked out all the heavy stuff (artillery, tanks, etc), a University Town whose points all went into Schools, Science Parks, Universities - Research, and perhaps an Artistic City ( Athens? ) in which the points went into Happiness / Cultural improvements that affect the entire civilization's Happiness/Contenment ratings."
    ( Diodorus Sicilus )

    "What do you think of putting these materials into a generic form--fuel, metals, maybe two more? Also, in every "age", where each of these generic goods are concentrated would change, to reflect the evolution from wood to coal to oil to nuclear power."
    ( Flavor Dave )

    <u>D. List of thanks:</u>

    Special thanks: Pythagoras

    Eggman, Ecce Homo, Harel, Bulrathi, Bab5tm, Korn469, Lancer, Matthew, Don don, Mark_everson, Trachymr, Mindlace, CapTVK, Stefu, Fugi the Great, Itokugawa, JamesJKirk, VaderTwo, EnochF, Croxis, Delcuze, Kerris, DanS, Didorus Sicilus, NotLikeTea, Flavor Dave, Hans2, Colon, Bubba, Druid, Prefect, Isle, Utrecht, Jele2


    <font size=1 color=444444>[This message has been edited by Harel (edited June 24, 1999).]</font>
    "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov

  • #2
    The thread should read:

    ECONOMICS/TRADE (ver 1.2): Hosted by Harel
    "Harel didn't replay. He just stood there, with his friend, transfixed by the brown balls."

    Comment


    • #3
      I thought lower cases looked better!
      The best ideas are those that can be improved.
      Ecce Homo

      Comment


      • #4
        Ok, ok EnochF )
        Next thread, I promise, which I'll do this weekend.
        In the meantime, meaningful posts, ok?
        "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov

        Comment


        • #5
          Shall issues about resources be discussed here or in the Resource Management thread? I would suggest a merger of that thread and this one, like it will probably be in the Firaxis forum.
          The best ideas are those that can be improved.
          Ecce Homo

          Comment


          • #6
            One thing needs to stay the same: getting a trade bonus for moving your caravan on a boat, plane, rough terrain, or whatever, to another city of your choice and getting a trade bonus based on various factors once it gets there. It adds a lot of variety to the game and ways to win it. It also gives a reason for shipping resources other than for carrying troops once the world has been pretty much explored and settled. Some better tools for managing this would be helpful, but the CtP method of establishing trade routes, as well as the SMAC, are lame. If you're a pacifist and the world has been settled then navy is of little use to you except for defense if you have nothing to carry around.
            The camel is not a part of civ.
            THE CAMEL IS CIV !!!!
            SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              MHO's,
              No tax/lux/science. Taxes only, which affects citizen's happiness. Taxes may be spent on lux, science, costs change depending on SE choices; city structures can improve the output.

              Social engineering affects the amount of total production, money, science you receive. A slider bar would have laisse-faire free market at one end, communal at the other. Communal govts have full control of where to put the above. Free-markets have little control where to put production & science, however they generate much more trade, and may purchase production & research back from private individuals in times of crisis (war). The computer would select where it wishes production, science to go (on % slider bars). You may add to them with what you control. Generally the AI will pick non-military research & production. Excess money (not taxes) may pay for city structures if they are non-governmental structures.

              There should be enough slider bars for variation, but not a number based on city size. The total production will dictate how many get used anyway.

              Agree with Isle on #14 above.

              Resources: If they are within your borders and you have means to transport them (connected road, port), you may use in all your cities. Otherwise you must trade or conquer to get these resources (or just - to production like #1 above). May inhibit certain lines of research. Outposts, forts would extend borders.

              RE: #21 above-
              As extra money can be used to quick purchase items I don't feel this is necessary.

              Quick purchases would be city-size based. You could add x# of production by paying a citizen. Cost & output would be based on SE choices & certain technologies.

              Agree with #22 & #23.

              No caravan units. Trade routes would be constructed instead. Construction is incremental. Once built you would choose your destination. Trade would arrive based on distance & technology. Bonus is also based on distance, tech.

              Bonuses can be added to current trade routes by adding excess food &/or shield production to the route.

              Clicking on a hotkey will overlay trade routes on the map, allowing players to see where to intercept/pirate trade routes. Interception blocks the route. Piracy funnels some trade back to you civ. Both are acts of war, piracy would cause diplomatic penalties with other civs. Navies/armies can be assigned to guard routes. This would not guarantee protection.

              Cities may send excess food, shield, trade arrows to another city as trade routes. These do not need to be constructed. Arrive based on distance, tech. If sent to other civs would count as a diplomatic "gift".
              <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Theben (edited July 05, 1999).]</font>
              I'm consitently stupid- Japher
              I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

              Comment


              • #8
                If you're going to have a slider bar for laissez faire and communal, then you've got to have a range after inudtrialization--from 30-70. Or, if you want to go outside of that range, you've got to use repression, or luxuries. After industrialization, England passed laws beginning in the 1830's for social justice, to prevent unrest. This is totally realistic. With industrialization, the working class develops enough that it demands certain things, to ameliorate the har****ies of the pure free market. And you better give it to them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I agree. In the middle of those 2 choices would be others: regulated market, planned market, etc. Taxes could be used to purchase "entertainment"- whether that would mean college football, TV entertainers, or welfare checks doesn't really matter. There'd also be other modifiers to happiness, but it's outside the realm of economics.
                  I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                  I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    theben--maybe instead of slider bars, something like this.

                    Pure demand economy--exactly what we have now.

                    Impure demand economy--like we have now, except you can only change the tiles worked if a new citizen pops up, once you've started building something.

                    authoritarian socialism--

                    democratic socialism--

                    deomcratic capitalism--

                    pure laissez faire capitalism--

                    Here I'm out of good ideas. One not-so-good idea is that as you move toward laissez faire, you go from only being able to tell your cities to build a unit, or a wonder, or a city improvement, but the AI chooses which. Better, you lose control of an increasing number of your cities. At modest LF, you only lose control of a couple of cities. You lose more and more as you get more LF (but you also generate more trade).

                    Anyway, after industrialization, you lose the ability to use the two extreme governments.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sorry. Accidental double post.
                      <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Chowlett (edited July 09, 1999).]</font>
                      The church is the only organisation that exists for the benefit of its non-members
                      Buy your very own 4-dimensional, non-orientable, 1-sided, zero-edged, zero-volume, genus 1 manifold immersed in 3-space!
                      All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That's his.
                      "They offer us some, but we have no place to store a mullet." - Chegitz Guevara

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just a quickie about trading with foreign powers early in the game.

                        It strikes me that trade is a two-way thing, and so it doesn't make sense if I trade with a nation who haven't developed trade, and leave them still without the Trade technology! I have 2 solutions.

                        1) Disallow trade with powers who have not discovered Trade (or equivalent)

                        Slighlty less strict is:

                        2) If you trade with a power lacking the Trade technology, they automatically gain that technology as part of the process.

                        This would, in fact, benefit you, as they can then start to reypay you kindness in trade routes.
                        <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Chowlett (edited July 09, 1999).]</font>
                        The church is the only organisation that exists for the benefit of its non-members
                        Buy your very own 4-dimensional, non-orientable, 1-sided, zero-edged, zero-volume, genus 1 manifold immersed in 3-space!
                        All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That's his.
                        "They offer us some, but we have no place to store a mullet." - Chegitz Guevara

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Flav Dave,
                          I originally envisioned several slider bars, 2 of them being tyranny <--> democracy (or anarchy) and laisse-faire market <--> communal. Your selections from each would give you the types of econ/govt you list above.
                          I agree with the loss of control for laisse faire, less so for democracy.
                          I was thinking that as you gained tech you'd be able to access the extremes of certain SE's, as opposed to not being able to.

                          Chowlett,
                          Even better would be Firaxis recognizing the fact that trade preceeded currency in history.
                          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
                          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A good way to show how trade was before and after currency, would be if will have one of the numerous commodity method people suggested.
                            In exchange trade, which was before trade, you will have to trade X items for a different X items. Meaning, 9 iron can only be traded for 9 lumber, etc.
                            Only after currency would you be able to exchange, for example, 1 silver for 100 lumber, or any one for credits.
                            "The most hopelessly stupid man is he who is not aware he is wise" Preem Palver, First speaker, "Second Foundation", Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Theben:
                              Good point. That has bugged me occassionally.

                              Harel:
                              I can see that working. I do like the ideas of commodities, and that would seem to be a way out.
                              The church is the only organisation that exists for the benefit of its non-members
                              Buy your very own 4-dimensional, non-orientable, 1-sided, zero-edged, zero-volume, genus 1 manifold immersed in 3-space!
                              All women become like their mothers. That is their tragedy. No man does. That's his.
                              "They offer us some, but we have no place to store a mullet." - Chegitz Guevara

                              Comment

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