Well, Yin agreed with me that the overall atmosphere of the game made up much of the success of CIV1/2 and so will be an ímportant factor for future addictiveness, too
WHAT IS 'ATMOSPHERE'?
Frankly, even a game like CIV2 (or ANY computer game, for that matter) isn't more or less than playing around with numbers. Fullspot. Whether resource values, combat strength, lightbulbs generated... all are numbers only. Now, besides a balanced game engine (i.e. intelligent and believable algorithms to handle and interpret these numbers), most of the fun in a game derives from HOW GOOD THESE NUMBERS ARE HIDDEN. Come on, we want to be cheated, don't we? Although we KNOW we sit in front of that ol' CPU, we want to feel Emperor. We want nice graphics, cool animations, cute ideas, in short: we want a PERSONAL game, something that lives (or at least pretends to do so).
Civ:CtP showed what can happen: Great graphics, lots of animations, a vast civilopedia (aka "Great Library")... and next to zero atmosphere (at least most people say so).
This thread is to bring up and gather ideas how to make CIV3 more FUN - not about touching the game engine, not about cool units we maybe want to see.
Three examples:
1) The end game / in game feature
In nearly all Sid Meier games, the player is rewarded after, and sometimes even IN the game: By way of giving him titles (CIV), naming special things (from snakes to continents) after him (Col), evaluating what could have become of the player (Railroad Tycoon) etc. This always was more fun than that plain ol' Highscore Screen most games have, right? In CIV, you had the Throne room, which essentially had no function, but was there for the fun of it only and to give the player the feeling "You have accomplished something!". Great, although it wears off after a while
2) The personalization of game elements
Remember the High Council? Boy, I could see those counsellors over and over again, especially the military bully and the Elvis type. They needn't be that way, but this was a fantastic example of how a given game element (the advisors as an important source of information) can be brought to life.
For me (and maybe for many more) CIV2 gained much by having this technically unnecessary feature. Same with the animated heralds, btw.
3) The little bells and whistles
We all have noticed how the citizens in CIV2 change their appearance over the epochs. Well, that's sensible. But that the Elvis guy gets fatter and fatter - well, it's a detail only, but a lovely one, one that made CIV2 (from my point of view) much more human and lovable. Compare that to the sterility of... well, you know which modern Civgame I mean...
Okay, that's the stage. No let the ideas on how to improve the atmosphere, how to simply make the player feel better, roll in!
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To make a beginning, here's my first idea:
OPTIMIZING THE TRHRONE ROOM
In CIV2, the Throne Room was an add-on, and essentially superfluous - most people have switched it off after a while, I think. Now, I could imagine combining the advisors / the High Council and the Throne room into one. This way, one would have a source of information that everytime when used reflects one's accomplishments. And instead of having those High Council animations every few hundred years, I'd rather have some representatives of my citizens complaining or praising me. Btw., talking about advisors, I'd love to have a historian again, who can always replay the development of my empire...
Now YOU
[This message has been edited by Dominique (edited May 24, 1999).]
A measure of formality, at least in military matters.
For example, in Civ II, you had "nuclear missiles." Whereas, in Call to Power, you had "nukes." In Civ II, you had "armor." In Call to Power, you have a "tank." The difference is slight, but it's one of many little things that made Civ II a more immersive experience.
Civ II also had those historical interludes. St. Augustine, Toynbee, Bede or Gibbon's histories, declaring the happiest, richest, or most powerful civilization.
I would like to see a bit of a deemphasis on winning the game.
Winning with a good score usually involves going to war with everyone as soon as possible. This might be good in terms of points, but it does little for atmosphere. Civs didn't really do this.
I would like to see the game itself be a victory. We should work for our civilization not because we want to win, but because we care for them, and want what's best.
The problem is that all scoring elements promote unrealistic gameplay (massive cities after all but one civ conquered... building unnecessary wonders, etc). A simple adjustment in the scoring methods (not sire of specifics.. that's for the designers to decide) could vastly promote more atmosphere, as we run the civ as an Emperor, not as a person sitting at a desk.
Atmosphere! Hard to say. I think the game should live! If some trees shake in the wind. Maybe some deers look out of a wood every now and then and some birds fly over whales in the sea or over forest areas.
And not to forget, the game has to be fast. If it stutters and has to load all the time this is a 75% loss in atmosphere. This is the only reason why ctp has "no" atmosphere (I dont agree however, but thats another thread), is because it has to load everytime you click somewhere. Speed is, for me, definetely one thing that adds to atmosphere. If the whole game stands, there can be no atmosphere! Agree?
Maybe if you open a city window you should hear some "city sounds", talking people, cars (in the modern times), airplanes, marketplaces,....
Add a lot of sounds. Sounds make a great piece of atmosphere. If you manage to place sounds well, you have already won a great deal!
When you choose to "build" a unit, you could hear military officers screaming in the background, barracks noise, ...
ATa
[This message has been edited by Atahualpa (edited May 24, 1999).]
City sounds. I like it. You'd have to do it right, though. Don't skimp. There's nothing more pathetic than three people trying to sound like a crowd of hundreds...
Ancient: goats, fires, Middle Eastern pipes, drums, mystic chanting, pigs, cows, stone chiseling, haggling in the marketplace (in Greek or Arabic)
Renaissance: horses on cobblestone, church bells, pigeons, hammering on anvils, coins clinking, troubadours strumming lutes
Modern: car horns, jackhammers, diesel engines, telephones, airplanes, street jazz
And throughout it all, men arguing, babies crying, old women calling out to no one in particular, dogs barking, cats mewling, and the bustle of foot traffic...
Great, all those first ideas have exactly what I had in mind for "improving the atmosphere". What's maybe most important is that those ideas aren't any impossibilities which would demand a lot of extra budget from the designers (something some people here seem to forget when they wish for "just about everything one could imagine in a game").
EnochF:
I absolutely agree - CtP, while so sterile as a whole, is a bit sloppy with it's vocabulary. Proper wording adds to atmosphere VERY much. E.g. I have changed (as a first "Mini-Mod") line 70 of "info_str.txt" to
"CITY_BUILD_QUEUE_IS_EMPTY "O [player.1.leader_name], we aren't building anything in [city.1.name]!"
just because I felt a proper greeting would be fitting (I'm the leader, after all
NotLikeTea:
If I get you right, you'd like to have more motivation to play "beautiful" games (as opposed to "maxing out" the score). Well, in the end this would stress what Sid Meier had in mind when first developing CIV1: To have alternative ways of playing and winning. And maybe one could implement an "never-ending" game this way, too? Just as an option?
Atahualpa:
I can only agree, and that from the heart - I'm a web designer, and as one U.S. collegue said "speed is one fundamental aesthetic in web design". This is definitely true for games, too, I think.
And I love the idea of having sounds, but let me "flesh it out a bit", because I feel just having sounds for the fun of it isn't the right thing (slows down the game without giving anything in terms of gameplay). Remember how easy it was in CIV1/2 to see at a first glance if your city was unhappy or didn't have enough food? Well, you can only show so much in one screen at any given time before it's getting cluttered up - what about some "alarm sounds", e.g. if there's no food, you hear a baby crying for milk (just a first, stupid idea)? So that the sounds actually have an impact on gameplay?
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Well, if we took the bones out they wouldn't be crunchy, would they?
[This message has been edited by Dominique (edited May 24, 1999).]
Great thread
Anyway, I think we should be careful with citysounds and such 'cause you know how often you use the city interface and it would be really annoying to hear some goats yammering whenever you go to the city interface! The rest of your family would probably be most annoyed and would force you to turn of the sounds. Great eh?
Some ideas I've had for atmosphere are:
* Allowing you to access a fancy-looking map of your empire, ancient-style in the ancient age etc. On the map you could see the extent of your great empire, just like on those maps from the history books you see of the Roman Empire. Just imagine, I mean what really makes me feel that the Romans were mighty is to see how far their empire stretched on the map.
I'd like to see something like that. I've got more ideas, but I gotta go now
Geography. Include an unimaginably long list of place names or random words, and have the game name new continents you discover. It's so much more fun to "cross the English channel to invade Britain" than to "go across that strait to reach the island.
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Invertebrates of the world, UNITE! Don't just be a bunch of spineless....ah....never mind
<=O=>=E
I _L_O_V_E_ the idea of an optional "neverending" game. I'm a compulsive builder myself and it has always depressed me to have to wrap up construction in time to launch my spaceship before 2100 A.D.
By the way, this seems to be the proper place to mention that I also really dislike the endgame in SMAC. I understand that the designers were trying to tell a story with the whole Transcendance sequence, but the pollution-generates-barbarians bits still annoy me.
Remember how Civ I had little midi files for each nations signature musical piece? Why not have Mp3 quality full national anthems for all of the civilizations in the game?
Dominique:
You got it! The game has to be personal to make an atmosphere! If it tells you that there is something built and that there is something not built this doesnt involve the player in the game.
THE PLAYER MUST HAVE THE FEELING THAT HE IS A PART OF HIS EMPIRE!
Therefore the annual council was such a success in Civ2, because there was someone who talked to you and looked into your face. The game has to be more personal.
Also, those newspaper reports in Civ1 were GREAT GREAT GREAT. Have you ever read the small text at the top in civ1? Sometimes it said: Great wall damaged, Vandals suspected.
I dislike the boring info boxes in civ2 and smac. They do not add to atmosphere. Special messages displayed as Newspaper reports would be a lot of fun.
Animations! Yeah, I know you will say: well animations, i dont really need them they only slow down the game. But, animations are essential! They show movement, they show life. Remember, who of you watched the waves in Civ1 hitting the shore? Sometimes, I found myself minutes just watching how the waves hit the shore. It didnt slow down the game speed, but added a lot to the feeling that the world in front of you is real!
Back to Sounds:
Dominique: The alarm sounds idea is great. I like it.
Asgeir: Of course you have to take care to not overcram the game with sounds, but some sounds here and there dont disturb.
I like the Unit reporting sounds of CTP. "There blood will run" or "find the enemy" add a lot to atmosphere. But not only that, remember the cheering in Civ2 cities when you built something? Well, it wasnt much effort to implement it, but created a relationship between you and your people.
A lot of atmosphere can be created when you give someone the feeling of being part of the game.
Sorry for the long post,
Ata
I also liked the fact in Civ1 you saw the improvements materialise in your city screen, and your troops walk into conquered cities and that sort of thing.
Regarding a "never ending game" a sure test of this would be if the game could be fun to play, without any other civs. As is, most of Civ is external affairs.. If internal affairs can be exciting, and not just improving infrastructure, a whole new dimension is added. This has been discussed elsewhere, in regards to civil wars, internal politics, etc...
Sorry for another post, but I missed a comment up there.
Names for locations would be wonderful. SMAC had them for real locations, but why not have them for random locations too? It couldn't be too hard for it to find landmasses with more than x number of squares and declare it a continent.
Speaking of continents, random maps that look halfway believable would be a bonus. CivI maps looked ok, CivII maps looked terrible, and SMAC is better, but not great. Always lots of fjords and islands.. never continents and real oceans.
As I see it, most people here agree on the need for a "realistic (in fact, a bit playful) empire atmosphere", esspecially including:
- a convincing map of your own empire (this touches the subject on borders, again)
- a personalized way of bringing news to the player; simple message boxes are taboo.
And, thinking of those little lines in the CIV1 newspaper, I want to stress my personal need for what's lacking in CtP TOTALLY: Humor. Not nonsense, mind you - drastic problems should be expressed in dramatic words (warfare, pollution), but that occasional funny face or witty comment is a real relief in an Emperor's hard day's work...
As for the naming of geographical features: While this might be not that easy to do (e.g. for a small canal, it's quite hard for the AI to actually RECOGNIZE those features), NAMED features would surely add to the atmosphere, a building block system for names IMHO being the ideal solution when playing on a generated map.
Concerning the music: I do not know whether one of you has played "Ascendancy", a kinda ciclike game located in space. It hat it's weaknesses, but it is IMHO unbeaten in creating an atmosphere to make the player actually feel as if belonging to a certain alien race, including music, graphics (the interface was different-looking for each race) and verbal expressions.
Maybe the most important part of the "modifiability" of CIV3 is not a map editor, but a civ editor in which you can set all these things as you like them, the identification with your civ being SOOO strong a motivation...
No animations or sounds, you only turn them off after 5 hours being sick to death with em!
Newspaper is a must!
The "radar" map should be better looking, more like a real map to give you the feel of living in a real world.
All citizens should be color coded so they orginate to a certain civilization, that will more give you the "my people" kinda feeling.
Civs shouldn´t go in a constant growth like they do now, they should be divided and ever perished to rise again......
Gee, and I thought I was the only one who didn't try to conquer the world. I usually play Ireland, so as you might think, I max out at 3 cities-colonies (I hate micromanagement) and spend most of my time using politics to stay on everyone's good side (or I am very quickly toast). If the councilors were expanded (along with my diplomatic options), I would be happy.
Being able to see a POLITICAL map would be a lot of fun. I don't mean the regular map with lots of dots for various cities. No, I want a standard atlas type map where all land inside your borders are colored in and the capital, major cities and natural/wonder landmarks possibly shown as dots with their names next them. This would be very graitifying to see your nation as it spreads across the world. Personally, I am fascinated looking at old maps and seeing how the borders used to be (Rome extended from England to Mesopotamia, Europe circa 1815, etc.) Big ego booster, this one is, and probably not too hard to implement.
A more realistic looking geographic map would also be nice but not necessary.
As in SMAC, there should be natural landmarks. The Grand Canyon, Angel Falls, Mt. Everest, etc. The longest rivers should be named (the Nile and Amazon or whatever) as well as other major geographic sites. Perhaps even have the option to name them. Also big ego boosts. They could also serve real functions as bonuses or just a sort of localized tourist/morale bonus.
Some people want a spherical map, and this would likely be impossible, without massive changes.
Still, why not approzimate it, as a little goodie? Just take the standard rectsangular map, and project it onto a sphere Yu couldn't play the game (move units, etc) from here, but it would be fun to see borders, cities, etc on a rotating globe. Not too too hard to do, either, I imagine. SimEarth did it in the very early 90s.
Depp: Dont agree with sounds and animations. Sounds and anims should be in the way you dont notice each of them, but notice a harmony when they are played altogether.
For example the sound that was played in Civ1 when another civ spoke with you. i still can see Stalin standing infront of me when I hear his music.
If those sounds and anims are well placed, you wont notice them, but you would feel atmosphere.
eggman: agree with the landmarks!
ATa
Two things I feel I should note:
1: Interface. I think that not only should the interface be easy to use, also give it some style, pizzazz. Juice it up a little. For example, if you're playing an Oriental, country, give it an oriental flair. SMAC's interface was just plain dull.
2: Movies. In my opinion, Civ 2's movies have yet to be matched. Not those lameo cgi things CTP had, but real-life, high quality movies that give you that warm fuzzy feeling inside. I remember building Hanging gardens JUST so I could watch the movie
We said about city sound, how about city graphics?
The civ series always had a rather bleak way to picture the cities: some buildings, roads, and the special buildings jumping in random.
did you notice, that every time you look, the temple is in another place of the city?
I suggest a colorful image of a city... a panoramic view. I won't say full 3D, beaucase we do want the game to run fast. However, add the bustling roads, people going up and down the boulvards. Animations! Lot's of them! People trading around the market place, priests in front of the temple, maybe an eternal fire burning.
What I suggest, is a simple grid-like map, that every building will have it's spot on the city ( randomly selected, I wont say you have to go and micro-manage the spots ), but a temple should stay put!
Add either panormaic view, or some sort of a limited 3D area ( that will be very nice with a zoom-option... zoom right on the market place and see a goat being selled )
The people in the cities should be customized to the nation you are playing - ie, the Greek citizens are depicted in tunics, the Romans in togas, the Indians in Saris, the Japanes in Kimonos, the Zulus in loin cloths, that sort of thing. Woyld give a real feeling that your nation had an identity. If you captured another nations city, maybe they would retain their dress for a while, gradually changing into your dress one by one as period of occupation increased
Alright, I jump in again to get some things nailed down:
MAPS seem to be of the ssence, yeah? I think so, too - combie a nice political / geographical map with the replay function of CIV1 - THAT's it, hm?
As far as the other ideas (animations, sounds, movies etc.) are concerned, we should keep one thing in mind: All these use MANPOWER to be done, in other words: money. The less time-consuming a feature is, the more can we expect to see it realized in CIV3.
So, e.g. the idea with the 3D map: Would be nice, really, but it would be quite a bunch of programming just for this liitle "mini-feature" which - admittedly - has no influence on the game NOR will it give you better information (more likely, just the opposite).
As a whole, it seems like most of you would like to explore their own empire a bit more, right?
First post in this thread.
The High Council is cool, the wonder movies are excellent (the music to Leo's Workshop and Women's Suffrage, oh man!) and I sure would love to have an end game replay sequence.
About sound. Is it too much to ask for "optional"? The sound when you found a new city or build a temple wears out really fast, I want to be able to turn it off. It's pretty much standard in any computer game, so that shouldn't be much of a problem.
Carolus
There are many things in SMAC that can be used to add atmosphere. In SMAC after discovering a tech, a quote would be shown and that quote would be read by an actor. Yes most were fictional quotes, but some were actual quotes. They added MUCH flavor to the game. I could just see a German actor readed off something of Einstein when you discover Relativity, or an Italian actor reading something by Mussolini when discovering Fascism. The possibilites are endless!
Oh, and the SMAC Wonder Movies were AMAZING! Even better than Civ2s!
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Imran Siddiqui
Moderator SG Forums - www.sidgames.com/forums/ ,
"Sir, I would rather be right than be President."
-Henry Clay
Here's how I view things, graphics-wise.
I would be willing to dispense with all graphics that take place during gameplay for some truly kick-ass graphics when I decide to look at a City View or take time-out to review my civilization as a whole or speak to my advisors. No animated units, animated resources, or "talking" units. Instead, concentrate the Graphics Department on the High Council, the City View, the Civilopedia (or "Great Library"), the Wonder Movies and the Throne Room.
If animated units are deemed by the marketing department to be essential for sales, then do your best to keep the animation fast.
As an addendum to the political map idea, someone in another thread mentioned making maps that look like their time frame (medieval maps have sea serpents and blowing wind, ancient maps use a Heiroglyphic type of font). Though this may be unsuited for the regular map, it works wonders on the political map.
Graphics is only one part of Atmosphere. Ctp has good graphics, but still some say that it has no atmosphere.
Imram: Better make it an option too. I think this is the kind of sound you will switch off after hearing it too often.
Ata
I don't agree with newspapers. Although they were good, I don't think they were accuarate.
First, how can you have newspapers in the year 3000BC?
Second, why am I relying on some other company to tell me what my best scientists in my Civilization have invented/discovered. shouldnt the scientists themselves be coming to ME, and telling ME first!?
Graphics has quite a lot of responsibility to create a good atmosphere.
The reasons I can think why CtP's graphics failed to give good feeling to the player is because it was too "messy"
In one square you have a mountain, then the next is forest, then plains, then forest, etc. And you KNOW its just one square, and each of your units covers the entire square! And we KNOW that doesn't really make sense.
The other thing is the fact you only see one image of the entire army, it looks like you have one legion, but really there is about 300? or whatever. To the eye, that doesnt make sense!
That drops a lot of feeling of Battle planning and feeling of power and leadership. Its SO limited!
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