Reply With QuoteInteresting... but you still need an actual army to take over cities, and a sea based faction (even Svengaard with his bonus) running democracy would have a hard time supporting (let alone raising) it.
I had a look through the old threads, but I couldn't find any reference to my #1 no-brainer strategy that has worked better for me than any other in this game (maybe I didn't look hard enough), but I thought I'd mention it here...
1: Nautilus Pirates.
2: Have your scout ship go pod-collecting.
3: Spread as far and as fast as possible.
4: Rush to Democracy for the efficiency.
5: Rush to Green for the efficiency + capture %.
6: Start to build a navy of captured Isles, use them to capture still more.
7: Keep other factions sweet with whatever it takes until your tidal-wave of captured isles finishes its pod-sweep around the world
8: Either win there and then, or else have your vast number of bases (sea gives near-unlimited expansion room) out-research your enemies.
Thoughts?
Interesting... but you still need an actual army to take over cities, and a sea based faction (even Svengaard with his bonus) running democracy would have a hard time supporting (let alone raising) it.
How about police state and green? You get the +2 support, and have 0 efficiency...-3 growth as the Pirates would suck, but shouldn't be too bad if you are on the ocean...also, its better than the -2 industry from power, as minerals will be lacking on the sea, even as Svensgaard...
Personally, I don't think you really would need to eliminate anybody...as long as you effectively use your navy and airforce and destroy formers, units outside of bases, and improvements, it seems unlikely that anyone could challenge you...even a more experienced human player would have a difficult time eliminating any decent player using the pirates, especially when there is no tech advantage...
The fun thing is, Isles-of-the-Deep can often have 1-3 mindworms / spore launchers on-board when they are captured, so you can usually get one faction-kill using those troops alone, if that's your thing.
The most effective way to kill people is to have each of your (many many) bases produce 2-3 formers, concentrate them into a few squares, and sink the enemy (weather paradigm if you haven't got the tech).
A couple of highly-experienced Isles can usually keep harassers off, and ~8 terraformers can do a same-turn sink!
Amusing? Yes. Effective? Arguably. It requires quite some planning and a passive AI to do that in single player, I doubt it's possible to pull that out on a decent human opponent.
Your problems are these against experienced opposition
1. Artillery barrages just crunch native life
2. You isles fight at a 1 to 1 ratio against their opponents with modifiers for Planet and morale. A defender can perhaps have a sensor bonus plus trance with equivalent morale
3. You point 3 is difficult since with a growth minus you are slower to gain pop and the high cost of seapods play a part here too.
4. Part 2 on your point 3-- I love to see an opponent spread widely since a scattered empire is a vulnerable one. IT allows opponents to probe-rape your bases and reinforcements are difficult. While I like a large empire, I believe in controlled growth. A wide ranging empire can mean you are fighting on several fronts against several opponents. I much prefer to establish a "secure" homeland before expanding in a big way
5. Build all the isles you want. Since I rarely build seabases, they really can't do a lot of harm. Oh and I am generally raising land using cheaper landformers within my own lands so good luck trying to terraform down bases using more expensive seaformers. I have proposed a land raise strategy in several threads since I see several uses for it . A search should reveal the threads. Basically if someone dominates the naval game, I start reducing the size of the ocean LOL
6. A green strategy with an emphasis on exploration has been put forth before for a number of factions and it is a reasonably good approach for the pod popping and native army reasons you cite. Add in planet pearls for cash as another consideration. But natives are limited militarily and the later in the game it gets, the more limited they are. IODs in particular would get munched later game by someone with cruisers and the MCC.
Overall the ideas are reasonably good but I think you have emphasized native power too much
Last edited by Flubber; December 14, 2005 at 17:50.
You will; never kill a human with those forcesOriginally posted by nhs_boy
The fun thing is, Isles-of-the-Deep can often have 1-3 mindworms / spore launchers on-board when they are captured, so you can usually get one faction-kill using those troops alone, if that's your thing.
You would only be able to do this against a human if you were totally dominating them anywayOriginally posted by nhs_boy
The most effective way to kill people is to have each of your (many many) bases produce 2-3 formers, concentrate them into a few squares, and sink the enemy (weather paradigm if you haven't got the tech).
Harrassers yes but only the AI dribbles units one at a time in an attack. A smart opponent probably sends a foil among your group to artillery barrage it and then self-destruct (if you have enough stuff grouped to make it worthwhile) If you have two isles stacked, they are probably dead from that single attack and the smart opponent probably waits to have 2-4 attackers before striking a massed blowOriginally posted by nhs_boy
A couple of highly-experienced Isles can usually keep harassers off, and ~8 terraformers can do a same-turn sink!
The bottom line is that to sink a base you need to be close enough to it to be subject to first strikes coming out of it . The one turn sink is probably a better idea but stacking 8 terraformers will usually mean that next turn you lose all 8 terraformers. Thats a lot of minerals
As Flubber said, Native Life is horribly underpowered comparing to regular units. I recall using the former from time to time, for instance to defend some stacks and bases against air units (IIRC, NL can defend pretty well), but it's been never anything more than an occasional, emergency application of something that is around and can come in handy. NL has also some uses when your opponent got the Fusion (as PSI combat ignores additional HPs), but I repeat, you can never rely on NL as an important part of your strategy and just 'go native'. It's simply to easy to tackle it.Originally posted by nhs_boy
The fun thing is, Isles-of-the-Deep can often have 1-3 mindworms / spore launchers on-board when they are captured, so you can usually get one faction-kill using those troops alone, if that's your thing.
The most effective way to kill people is to have each of your (many many) bases produce 2-3 formers, concentrate them into a few squares, and sink the enemy (weather paradigm if you haven't got the tech).
A couple of highly-experienced Isles can usually keep harassers off, and ~8 terraformers can do a same-turn sink!
I've always wanted to start a MP game with NL boosted, but never had the time before, and has engaged in too many games now. I remember some time ago Darsnan proposed to tweak NL. Not only it was about 20% (or maybe even more) cheaper, but Mind Worms got 2 movement points and Radar and Trance as inherent abilities. It was quite an interesting thing. If you want, you can try to dig it out in the Creation section and start an MP game, but I'm afraid in vanilla SMAX the best you can do with NL is setting up a ZOO...
One sidenote: by the time you get Green and set your IoDs for pods, chances are most of them will have been already popped.
Heh, some very reasonable objections to the strategy - that's what I guess for only playing against a small group of opponents, I guess (house LAN, etc).
I'd still be in favour of the 'spread far, spread fast' with +efficiency strategy, though. Without boreholes you're unlikely to have much of a tech-lead for your opponent to probe away, and the point of many-small-cities is that you can afford to lose a few improvements / bases. There's no easy way for a non-pirate opponent to hold on to one of your captured bases for long, anyway...
Perhaps as Pirate you may have better chances of securing the Manifold Nexus.
Trotsky - trying to avoid the bashing bandwagon.
Hey, 'tis no worry: In putting up a strategy that's been tested against only three other people, I wasn't expecting it to be hailed as the Next Big Thing.
Bashing is fine, as long as it's all reasoned :-).
I didn't think I was bashing.
When I propose something I hope to hear honest criticism/ other idea sand thats what I thought nhs wanted here.
The problem IMHO with a Pirate ICS (for that is what you now appear to be describing) is that other landbased factions can ICS better and faster due to the lower growth rate and the relatively high cost of those seapods.
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ICS - Infinite City Sprawl - building you bases in a tight grid (usu 1x1), constructing mostly Colony Pods and formers and spreading until you either cover the whole map or grow tired and switch to some more fine tactics.
No Flubber, I don't think the term is so obvious to everyone...
Sea ICS with Pirates is nonsense in MP game
My usual Pirate approach:
1.Find a coast with some bonuses in the shelf
2.Found your 2 seacities near that cost and each other
3.Pump out sea 4 transports in a row.
4.Go hunt for AAs with 3 of the sea trannies, leave one home for sea-cost transport.
5.Build land Colony pods and settle them along the coast (!) where your sea ones are.
6.Have the land colonies build - first former (which makes forests, sensors, but no roads), then scout or rover.
7.Transport back harvested AAs and build WP (should be around 2125)
Tech b-line = CE, SP, IE (yes, FM!), IA, Eth Calc
This approximately the strategy Shawnmmcc was using in TCDD game where he got 4 SPs by 2125 (he started with 4 SeaCPods, though).
The trannies is the key to the strategy and once you get the tech for first armor (synth) and/or SOFHB, you should upgrade them to 0-2t-3 for a 50% defensive advantage over IoDs.
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True not everyone may know the terms. I used "ICS" here to generally describe the strategy of very very many bases with fewer facilities since that what nhs seems to be describing when he talks about not caring that much if a base or two are lost. I doubt that nhs would use tight spacing since he seemed to be advocating getting bases throughout the map as quickly as possibleOriginally posted by Kirov
ICS - Infinite City Sprawl - building you bases in a tight grid (usu 1x1), constructing mostly Colony Pods and formers and spreading until you either cover the whole map or grow tired and switch to some more fine tactics.
No Flubber, I don't think the term is so obvious to everyone...
True I learn something against every different player I meet. I've probably played 80 different players over the years and I bet if I played you I would learn something new again. THis is true even if I crushed you and certainly true if you crushed me.Originally posted by nhs_boy
Heh, some very reasonable objections to the strategy - that's what I guess for only playing against a small group of opponents, I guess (house LAN, etc).
I can agree that you need to spread fast. Thats why I usually like to try to use the early mobility of the PIrates to find some good land based locations to set up some bases and spread fast.Originally posted by nhs_boy
I'd still be in favour of the 'spread far, spread fast' with +efficiency strategy, though. Without boreholes you're unlikely to have much of a tech-lead for your opponent to probe away, and the point of many-small-cities is that you can afford to lose a few improvements / bases.
On spread far, I just disagree. I set up my empires with the idea that at some point I will try to get and maintain a tech lead. So even if I ICS early with the acceptance that I could easily lose a base or bases, there usually will come a point where I will try to create a hard shell of defensible positions. This point is usually around the time that I want to grab a tech lead to get key SPs or just key advantages for a period of time.
Sure there is with concentration of forces. One typical tactic is to capture a bunch of bases on the turn , sell an improvement in all but one and then gift all but one of the bases to some friendly but inferior AI. So the result when the turn is passed is that you see 4-5 empty bases in the hands of an AI and one very well defended base in my hands. You might recapture all of the AI held bases on the ensuing turn but I don't care since that means I will likely have the opportunity to capture them again and give them away again next turn.Originally posted by nhs_boy
There's no easy way for a non-pirate opponent to hold on to one of your captured bases for long, anyway...
To think you can retake it quickly would have to assume that you have a great superiorty in production and military forces (points which I would not concede). I am assuming we are relatively equal in forces but that you have more dispersed bases such that it was MY choice as to which of those very many bases to target. I am also assuming that we have relatively equal tech. The problem for the dispersed guy is that every tech you get, gets stolen. So a wary human would usually have a tech advantage over the dispersed guy. Even if its only a one turn tech adavantage, that can mean your opponent gets things like the HSA or the cloning vats first.
A small side note...Secrets of the Human Brain, while not generally beelined by most players, can prove to be very, very useful...the Hypnotic Trance ability given by this technology can effectively stop all but the most determined and organized attacks that use native lifeforms...a scout patrol with the hypnotic trance ability costs the same as a normal scout patrol...it would be foolish to not use your first 10 minerals in building a 1-1t-1 instead of just a 1-1-1 unit, especially if you are on the sea where units can be outside your base radius, then suddenly attack your base....
The only exception would be on land bases where a former or other production to help Secret Projects (facility, expensive units) was needed...
trance can be useful but quite frankly I rather attack the natives with my land unit. After all I have basic 3:2 odds unless I am running FM or the morales are divergent. Obviously I'll put it on units for free but I confess I rarely make the upgrade for previously built unitsOriginally posted by Commy
A small side note...Secrets of the Human Brain, while not generally beelined by most players, can prove to be very, very useful...the Hypnotic Trance ability given by this technology can effectively stop all but the most determined and organized attacks that use native lifeforms...a scout patrol with the hypnotic trance ability costs the same as a normal scout patrol...it would be foolish to not use your first 10 minerals in building a 1-1t-1 instead of just a 1-1-1 unit, especially if you are on the sea where units can be outside your base radius, then suddenly attack your base....
IN an idea world, my units rarely defend against native attack-- I want the pearls from killing THEM
I would agree...offensive action is much more economical...but, if you have a lot of native life, random mindworms that pop up and attack your base on the same turn, well, you can't really do anything about that...
The other thing is early free market...simply put, the odds won't always be in your hands when you attack worms...
Also, this strategy is mostly for a sea based faction, where IoD and sealurks can easily be outside your territory one turn, then 1 or 2 turns later, attack your base without you even seeing them...unless you plan on building boats as your garrisons, it would be kind of hard to attack most IoD or sealurks that wander into your territory anyway, as most garrisons are land units...
In this case, hypnotic trance, atleast in the early game, and prove to be very handy...
The thing to note about trance,is on its use with sea units. a transport with synth armour and trance can take out a popped NL easily,and continues on pod popping. this coastal strategy is very powerful,what with the benefits of pods. im using this to great effect in cgn24,where i have maybe 1\3 of all pods popped(on the map) as hive,and outteching morgan\gaia
I rarely have IoD though. i wouldnt know how to get them,with -3 planet and all....they are quite an ideal unit for this though.
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The Pirates suffer from low base efficiency. By spreading around a lot you reduce the number of SE settings which can produce good energy outputs. A better strategy imo is to build your initial bases fairly close together in order to retain as much of that early energy as possible. If you want to spread out later, going to ground on an empty continent and building bases with a lot of specialists works well, and you can pod boom pretty efficiently to get around the fact that you are going to have a hell of a time GA pop booming those outlying bases.
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BUt as a seafaring faction, you should have enough shipping around to give most IODs a barrage or two that should make them pretty easy to kill. Artillery is always a big consideration when thinking how to kill wormsOriginally posted by Commy
The other thing is early free market...simply put, the odds won't always be in your hands when you attack worms...
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