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Spearman vs Tank: A Different Perspective

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  • Spearman vs Tank: A Different Perspective

    We have all read imaginative rationalizations explaining situations where units like spearmen defeat tanks.
    The problem I have always had with these arguments is a matter of scale. I can accept that some ingenious aborigine outsmarted a tank crew of morons, but the scale of units in Civ is, I think, larger than one-to-one.
    As a wargamer, the ambiguous scale of the units represented in Civ has always bugged me, but I now think I have it figured out.
    I have based my logic on the aircraft carrier unit.
    A modern naval battle group is usually centered around a single carrier (not always, but usually), therefore I feel confident in concluding that the carrier unit in the game equates to a single aircraft carrier. I would also think that battleships, being capital ships, would be scaled the same; on a one-to-one level.
    Now in Civilization IV, each carrier can carry three fighter units.
    In the real world, a carrier’s air wing consists of about 50 fighter and strike aircraft (we won’t count the two dozen other aircraft that do anti-sub, airborne warning/control, tanker, and other functions since these aren’t represented in the game). So if we divide those 50 aircraft into three units, we find that each fighter unit represents about 16 airplanes. I generally consider a fighter unit to represent a squadron (an Air Force fighter squadron is about 18 planes, the difference I think is negligible).
    Now this gives us a basis on which to judge the scale of other military units in the game.
    I would think it would be reasonable to say that a unit of modern armor in game terms would represent at least as much as an armored battalion (which consists of about 50 to 60 M1 Abrams tanks) and I would think no more than a brigade in the real world.
    So I’m sorry, but I’ll never believe that spearmen, even if they are legion in number, are going to defeat a battalion of Abrams tanks.

    BTW, if you’re interested, a modern armored division in game terms should consist of (at least) the following game units: 5 Modern Armor, 4 Mech. Infantry, 4 Artillery, 3 Gunship, and 1 SAM. Disclaimer: This of course doesn’t take into consideration units like engineers, signals, intelligence, etc. that are not represented in the game.

  • #2
    :: rocks back and forth::

    Make the bad man stop! Make it stop! Oh please, oh please, make it go away!

    Some forums have a "beating a dead horse" link right by the profanity link. We really need one here. Do we really need YET ANOTHER thread on this topic?
    Friedrich Psitalon
    Admin, Civ4Players Ladder
    Consultant, Firaxis Games

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    • #3

      This issue will never go away! Bwahahaha

      Comment


      • #4
        Here is how it works:

        1. Tanks are manned by people who care as much about maintence as Jessica Lynch.

        2. Tanks don't work well and break down.

        3. Spearmen win!
        "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
        "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
        "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
        "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

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        • #5
          Re: Spearman vs Tank: A Different Perspective

          Originally posted by Brutus66
          I have based my logic on the aircraft carrier unit.


          this is really insane. how about a week long ban on 'spearmen beats tank' threads (including 'longbowman beats tank', 'archer destroys rifleman' and 'camel archer kills mech infantry', 'leonidas beats a stack of immortals'. etc.).



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          • #6
            Originally posted by Brutus66

            This issue will never go away! Bwahahaha
            certainly, unless you follow prescription.

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            • #7
              Re: Re: Spearman vs Tank: A Different Perspective

              Originally posted by LaRusso




              this is really insane. how about a week long ban on 'spearmen beats tank' threads (including 'longbowman beats tank', 'archer destroys rifleman' and 'camel archer kills mech infantry', 'leonidas beats a stack of immortals'. etc.).



              Still more realistic than the RPG format of young kid from the boonies taking on the most powerful evil in the world.
              "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
              "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
              "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
              "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

              Comment


              • #8
                Consider this then: During Desert Storm, no M1’s were penetrated by T-72 fire, and not one M1 crewmen died during the operation, even from friendly fire.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Brutus66
                  Consider this then: During Desert Storm, no M1’s were penetrated by T-72 fire, and not one M1 crewmen died during the operation, even from friendly fire.
                  Not every tank in existence is as good as M1s though. You can't necessarily take the best when you are just represented by basic units.
                  "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
                  "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
                  "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
                  "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Apocalypse

                    Not every tank in existence is as good as M1s though. You can't necessarily take the best when you are just represented by basic units.
                    I may be as crazy as some folks say I am, but MA sure looks like an M1 to me...

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                    • #11
                      This thread on CivFanatics has a collection of most usual explanations (and some unusual):

                      Spearman vs Tank, the comical incident of an ancient unit vs a modern unit. It has boggled the world! Whats your take on this? Do you think its funny? Do you think it is rubbish? Do you not even give a Mongol horde? If you like the idea of a spearman beating a tank, please post a way that a...

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brutus66
                        Consider this then: During Desert Storm, no M1’s were penetrated by T-72 fire, and not one M1 crewmen died during the operation, even from friendly fire.
                        well, during three months of kosovo bombing, nato managed to destroy, IIRC, a total of 12 tanks. does that mean that civ 4 bombers should be useless against armor? (mind you, this was fairly obsolete russian armor).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Brutus66


                          I may be as crazy as some folks say I am, but MA sure looks like an M1 to me...
                          Looks don't mean anything though. M1s just look like good tanks anyway.
                          "Yay Apoc!!!!!!!" - bipolarbear
                          "At least there were some thoughts went into Apocalypse." - Urban Ranger
                          "Apocalype was a great game." - DrSpike
                          "In Apoc, I had one soldier who lasted through the entire game... was pretty cool. I like apoc for that reason, the soldiers are a bit more 'personal'." - General Ludd

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Apocalypse

                            Looks don't mean anything though. M1s just look like good tanks anyway.
                            I see. Well then, that explains why the portrait of the marine unit depicts a Vietnam-era marine with an M16, yet the 3d models are carrying AK's in-game (WTF??).

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                            • #15
                              According to your calculations. How many spearmans should it be? 5.000??

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