Reply With QuoteI don't see the Scots and Welsh in the game for the English to 'unify' with to create a Great Britain.
OTOH, my Scottish grandmother admonishes me from beyond the grave to see the POV.
Hi folks. The title says it all really. There was no such thing as an English Empire. There was a British Empire. This is not an unimportant detail. Try playing this game as a Scot and see how it feels.
Surely the developers could have got this right? Is there any way to contact them to see if this can maybe be put right in a subsequent patch? I sure hope so as the game is brilliant otherwise. Once this is publicized I think they'll lose a lot of sales, which would be a shame.
I don't see the Scots and Welsh in the game for the English to 'unify' with to create a Great Britain.
OTOH, my Scottish grandmother admonishes me from beyond the grave to see the POV.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
Scotland and England were already unified before Victoria came along. Listen te yer Granny, man.
Remember you can always rename the empire to your liking.
Also, there is no such thing as the American Empire, either (politics aside). There is the United States of America, even though some hardcore liberal / intellectual-wannabes would like to call it the American Empire.
Originally posted by notyoueither
I don't see the Scots and Welsh in the game for the English to 'unify' with to create a Great Britain.
OTOH, my Scottish grandmother admonishes me from beyond the grave to see the POV.
The Act of Union with Wales was in Henry VIII's reign- before there was a 'Great Britain'- a term which James VI & I was the first monarch to use.
It's simply sloppiness on the part of the company, to go with their inaccurate account of the Persian civilizations.
Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.
...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915
Bah,the majority of scots are to busy taking drugs and stealing cars to effect CIV4 sales.
Well, the civilization is called English since that's the name it always had in game, and they then add "Empire" to the name of each civ, to denote the civilization's state. This game is not a historical simulation.
The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God?
- Frank Herbert
Originally posted by Martinus
This game is not a historical simulation.
But that is no excuse for inaccuracy- and the makers of Civ III found no problem in giving Scottish great leaders to the English.
It's really an annoyance when people confuse and conflate English with British- it's not as though the pertinent facts are that hard to come by, especially given the weekend's 400th anniversary of the failed attempt to blow up the first monarch of Great Britain.
Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.
...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915
IMO, a truly unimportant detail. But then I'm English and not a whiny dundonian!!Originally posted by zorrofox
Hi folks. The title says it all really. There was no such thing as an English Empire. There was a British Empire. This is not an unimportant detail. Try playing this game as a Scot and see how it feels.
Surely the developers could have got this right? Is there any way to contact them to see if this can maybe be put right in a subsequent patch? I sure hope so as the game is brilliant otherwise. Once this is publicized I think they'll lose a lot of sales, which would be a shame.
Just messing with ya!
QFTOriginally posted by Martinus
Well, the civilization is called English since that's the name it always had in game, and they then add "Empire" to the name of each civ, to denote the civilization's state. This game is not a historical simulation.
And quite frankly, I don't know this should be framed as an economic question, as I truly don't believe Scots/Scots that care about this make up a significant market. It's like if they named "Chinese" "ooga ooga booga" because, well, China's not a really big market for this game and those that like it will buy it anyway. Besides, you can always just change it yourself if you're not happy. It's not like it matters what the vanilla game says.
I didn't intend to frame this economically. I couldn't care less about that as they've already got my 30 squid. If this misrepresentation really was insignificant to people, would there be a market for a game of this type in the first place?
These things DO matter.
On a lighter note, my Scotland is doing pretty well for itself at the moment. Still holding the Romans at the gate.
30 squid? Saw you coming!
Oh well. If you really want to dig into it, Frederick shouldn't be an option for the Germans, since there was no such thing when he was the king of Prussia. Alexander the Great was actually the king of Macedon, not Greece (although he governed most of Greece most of the time). I don't think there was such an nation as India when that non-Gandhi Indian leader ruled. And I don't remember hearing of an Arabic Empire from my history classes either.
Originally posted by Kekkonen
Oh well. If you really want to dig into it, Frederick shouldn't be an option for the Germans, since there was no such thing when he was the king of Prussia. Alexander the Great was actually the king of Macedon, not Greece (although he governed most of Greece most of the time). I don't think there was such an nation as India when that non-Gandhi Indian leader ruled. And I don't remember hearing of an Arabic Empire from my history classes either.
This is to confuse 'civilization' with state.
It was 'British' civilization that created the British Empire-with Scottish philosophers and economists, Welsh industrialists and Irish writers and soldiers.
What the creators have done is to intermingle the Scottish, Irish and Welsh with the English and call them all English, when a perfectly serviceable and more accurate alternative existed.
Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.
...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915
Good point. However, the sad part is that a mistake like this is insignificant to the majority of people I would think. We care about ourselves and what we know, and sadly don't care about the outside. Yes, there is this hype about a Civ player being more "intellectual" and "sophisticated" than players of...say, FPS or non-historical games, but that "*shrug* whatever" factor is still there. I mean, I personally don't care about such a mistake, no one else that brought the game thus far that I know does either. Maybe it says more about people than the game that a lot don't care?Originally posted by zorrofox
I didn't intend to frame this economically. I couldn't care less about that as they've already got my 30 squid. If this misrepresentation really was insignificant to people, would there be a market for a game of this type in the first place?
EDIT - Wow...English bad me...
Last edited by Mao; November 8, 2005 at 06:39.
Really...hmmm..."British" is considered a civilization? I always thought of it more as a political term. Then again, I also have problems a lot of the time considering America as a "civilization" too.Originally posted by molly bloom
This is to confuse 'civilization' with state.
It was 'British' civilization that created the British Empire-with Scottish philosophers and economists, Welsh industrialists and Irish writers and soldiers.
What the creators have done is to intermingle the Scottish, Irish and Welsh with the English and call them all English, when a perfectly serviceable and more accurate alternative existed.
Who wants DVDs? Good prices! I swear! :)
heh, i tried to play the british the other day and couldn't find them on the list, confusuzled the heck out of me so i went back to playing Roosevelt.Then libby shows up as my neighbor!
By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may get to be a boss and work twelve hours a day.
If Britiain isn't a Civilization because we comprise of four types of peoples then neither is the US(African Americans, Anglo Americans, and a variety of Immagrants), China(Considering the many different peoples, Han Chinese, etc.), Spain(Isn't there three cultures?), Germany(North and South Germans) or Russia (Good god, aren't they the hodge podge of cultures?).
And I'm pretty sure there might be other nations our there with multiple peoples aswell, but I'm lacking in Education in that Area. Does that make them invalid?
It should be Britain, Not England.
*shrug* I could care less what the game does, esp. an issue as (frankly) small as this where the vanilla game didn't put "Britain" in. The thing about "civilization" to me is that it always connoted an ancient tone, like the Babylonian "civilization" or the Egyptian "civilization." It's something earned with time, you know? It's totally in my head of course. You can call it whatever you want, call them "Hodads" (hehe, anyone remember that?) if you want, but they made it English. If instead of changing it to Britain, what if they changed the leaders instead to purely English leaders? Would that make it alright as well?Originally posted by Verenti
If Britiain isn't a Civilization because we comprise of four types of peoples then neither is the US(African Americans, Anglo Americans, and a variety of Immagrants), China(Considering the many different peoples, Han Chinese, etc.), Spain(Isn't there three cultures?), Germany(North and South Germans) or Russia (Good god, aren't they the hodge podge of cultures?).
And I'm pretty sure there might be other nations our there with multiple peoples aswell, but I'm lacking in Education in that Area. Does that make them invalid?
It should be Britain, Not England.
But as to what the definition of a "civilization" is supposed to be, it's very fluid IMHO. I mean, do you consider the Belgians also a civilization? How about Iraqis? If Britain is, why not Iraq or Belgium? I always thought Britain was a political union first and foremost, but that could certainly be termed a civilization. Does one idenfity with their "civilization" first and foremost? Do people in the UK think of themselves as "British" first or as "English," "Welsh," "Scottish," etc. first? I'm actually curious as I don't know.
Strangely enough, a recent 'survey' done by someone or other found that a higher percentage of people in the various ethnic communities in the UK think of themselves as British. The others (people not considered as 'ethnic') think of themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh.Originally posted by Mao
But as to what the definition of a "civilization" is supposed to be, it's very fluid IMHO. I mean, do you consider the Belgians also a civilization? How about Iraqis? If Britain is, why not Iraq or Belgium? I always thought Britain was a political union first and foremost, but that could certainly be termed a civilization. Does one idenfity with their "civilization" first and foremost? Do people in the UK think of themselves as "British" first or as "English," "Welsh," "Scottish," etc. first? I'm actually curious as I don't know.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/tx/british.shtml
My experience is that the Welsh think of themselves as Welsh, the Scottish think of themselves as Scottish and the English couldn't care less whether they're referred to as English or British. YMMV.
The English Empire has been in Civ since Civ1. I don't think there is any threat of them losing sales over it.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
British history isn't my best subject, but it seems to me that the English were the people that created the British empire.
People like Edward I did it by subduing the Welsh and Scottish.
In 1803 Ireland was formally annexed, and they didn't merge with the British empire by choice.
They've done that with every civ in the game.What the creators have done is to intermingle the Scottish, Irish and Welsh with the English and call them all English, when a perfectly serviceable and more accurate alternative existed.
You're right, it's not your subject is it? The empire was formed when Scotland and England joined under the Act of Union. Note that Scotland was not subsumed, but was in fact an equal partner. That's sadly not the case anymore unfortunately. Nowadays we're an ethnic minority in our own country without any of the rights of other more recent incoming minorities.Originally posted by Brutus66
British history isn't my best subject, but it seems to me that the English were the people that created the British empire.
People like Edward I did it by subduing the Welsh and Scottish.
In 1803 Ireland was formally annexed, and they didn't merge with the British empire by choice.
I guess it was daft of me to expect this game to get things right. Still a great game though.
It should be the English Empire!
Stupid Celts.
As for Scots having less rights than incoming minorities. That's ridiculous. You have exactly the same rights as me or any other British citizen. Name me one right that an incoming minority has that you don't? Or one right that you think you should have above what rights I have?
Scotland consists of a few million of the population. We don't give Mancunians, Geordies or the Cornish any 'extra' rights either but in fact Scotland has more autonomy than most areas in that it has it's own devolved parliament etc.
Get over it.
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
Now now...
Don't taunt the SNP nutter...
Like you're irrelevant?Originally posted by zorrofox
Hi folks. The title says it all really. There was no such thing as an English Empire. There was a British Empire. This is not an unimportant detail. Try playing this game as a Scot and see how it feels.
I think you're just going to have to own up to the fact and accept that the English culture is the dominant force in the United Kingdom and realize that what Sid Meier and the guys decided to call the various folks of British origins back in the good ole' days of CIV1 really does not matter a whole hell of a lot to anyone other than yourself.Originally posted by zorrofox
You're right, it's not your subject is it? The empire was formed when Scotland and England joined under the Act of Union. Note that Scotland was not subsumed, but was in fact an equal partner. That's sadly not the case anymore unfortunately. Nowadays we're an ethnic minority in our own country without any of the rights of other more recent incoming minorities.
I guess it was daft of me to expect this game to get things right. Still a great game though.
Scotland has some autonomy because Scotland is a country, not a region. There's a difference. I don't see Scots as an option on Government forms. I'm not allowed to say aye as an affirmation in a British court. How much more do you need?Originally posted by MikeH
It should be the English Empire!
Stupid Celts.
As for Scots having less rights than incoming minorities. That's ridiculous. You have exactly the same rights as me or any other British citizen. Name me one right that an incoming minority has that you don't? Or one right that you think you should have above what rights I have?
Scotland consists of a few million of the population. We don't give Mancunians, Geordies or the Cornish any 'extra' rights either but in fact Scotland has more autonomy than most areas in that it has it's own devolved parliament etc.
Get over it.
And it does matter in this game because even when I change the names in-game it's still an English flag I see coming over the hill. Improves my aim somewhat though.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks