Turkish taffy

[lord of the mark]

Ok, so like I got bored with my England game - I mean geez, its 1787, the wimpy American rebels have been reconciled, ive got pretty much all of North America east of the Miss, plus Texas, plus 10 privinces in India, plus Malaya, plus the whole damned Caribeab, plus Danzig. Richest, most vic points, DP sliders where I want them. Good monarch stats, thanks to Pitt the Younger. No point in going on - I mean i played this on Hard - gotta go to Very Hard, and prove myself.


So I fire up as Ottomans, Very Hard, vanilla 1.08, GC.

Looks like fun.

Figured id post about it here - its too easy to get +1s at Paradox (I mean a history forum, cmon) and im not in the mood for tips from uberplayers there - I want to do this more or less on my own, but with the banter I can expect here.

Goal - global jihad, of course.

But first ive got a bigger army than i can afford - why disband when ive got CBs all over the place? So i attack what is it, Kerman? The 3 Prov Sunni Turkish state to my south with the Star of David thingies (like whats up with THAT?) Figured id go after asia minor first - ive got ENOUGH off religion provs to start. I see some folks are into Vassalizing Asia Minor - I dont know, if Im going to give myself a stronger Sunni base, id think i want to annex. Its the BBS for killing the 1 provs I guess - Im not sure I want to be to gamey on BB's - keep to RP honesty, and maybe only force vassal ones where theres good reason, maybe historical reasons(?)

[Nikolai]

/me opens his newly microwaved popcorn.

[lord of the mark]

BTW, in case anyone didnt get the reference in the thread title

http://www.bonomosturkishtaffy.com/

[Nikolai]

I didn't. And I can't say to be getting it any more now. A candy? Never heard of it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Nikolai
I didn't. And I can't say to be getting it any more now. A candy? Never heard of it.

wiki:

"Taffy is a type of chewy candy, such as salt water taffy. Taffy is made by stretching or pulling until fluffy a sticky mass of boiled sugar, butter, flavorings, and coloring. When this process is complete the taffy is cut into small pastel-colored pieces and wrapped in wax paper to keep it soft. It usually has a fruity flavor, but many other flavors are common.

Salt water taffy was a noted invention of Atlantic City, New Jersey and became a common souvenir of many coastal resort towns.

Taffy is pulled commercially by machine on metal hooks; home made taffy is pulled by hand between two people. Taffy pulls were a common social event in the 18th century and still occasionally practiced today. The two-person format allowed romantic possibility and the word "taffy" was sometimes used to mean "flattery".'

Turkish Taffy was a brand name for taffy made by the bonomo company. Ah, sweet days of youth


Obligatory on topic reference:

Atlantic City is in Delaware Province I think. Or maybe Manhatten province. The eastern US part of the EU2 map is really screwed up.

[lord of the mark]

Back to the game. its now mid 1421.

Beat Kerman - took 2 provinces, and vassalized the remaining prov. I guess you could say i wimped out vassalizing, but i couldnt annex yet, so might as well, huh? I still intend to annex some Anatolian 1 prov minors. The guy to my east, between me and AK, is my next target. Meanwhile ive allied with AK, and had Royal marriage with Golden Horde. Ive got Murad, and he will lead the next war.

With the wearing down of my army against Kerman, and my new provinces, im no longer over the support limit. Having earlier played Spain and England im not used to being this strapped for funds. Going to centralized, pushed me back to 0 stab, and im only now back to 1. Im focusing on infra, so i can get tax collectors. So far i can conquer without any land techs. Ive got missionaries, but cant afford to use them, and can already see a growing inflation problem.

The whole army is in Asia Minor, but i dont think these wimpy balkan states will attack, and Venice is at war with Hungary, so the eevil Latins are not a threat.

[lord of the mark]

Historical aside - the RL Ottoman Empire was a multicultural entity - which EU2 represents well, since Ottos have 4 national cultures. But it also was, for much of its history, almost multireligious - despite the enforcement of Hanafi Sharia, Christians were important in the army and navy, and had a significant role as advisors to the throne, etc. Its natural to partly represent this in game by high tolerance for Orthodox, as well as for Sunni Muslims - keeping the sliders low for Catholic and Shia makes sense. But theres still a good incentive to convert the Orthodox, though OTL (original time line - actual history) the Ottomans didnt go on conversion missions like the Spanish did- the conversions of Albanians and Bosniacs is better represented by the spontaneous conversion events.

But as Ive said, my aim is global jihad, not just the aggransizement of the Ottoman state. Im not sure I'll do an AAR/AH like Whither Spain, but if I do, I'll need a POD to explain the change. Im thinking of using first Trabizon war as a POD for the change. I may also make the self insertion character Jewish, which wouldnt be implausible in the OE, though I wont play that too heavily in the decision to convert the Ortho, in order to spare Jewish-OrthoChristian relations here Though a Jew counseling the conversion of folks to Sunni Islam has a certain appeal

[lord of the mark]

Re the game - well, its certainly fun - plays more like a war game as OE than my previous games.

After the Kerman war, I fought a war with Trabizon, and took their muslim province. Didnt vassalize - I am now leaning toward the idea of Force vassalizing and DAing Sunni states, and keeping the force annexing for the christian ones - though I did force annex the one province Turkish muslim minor to my due east - i forget the name. My BB have been rising, and if im going to really expand, i need to watch that. RP-wise - we were tough Turkish SOBs who force annexed one sunni muslim state, but the diplomatic ramifications surprised us, and now we're more circumspect.

BTW, later Trabizon was annexed by Georgia - I was busy at the time.

Its also not easy to improve relations with a vassal when youve got CBs on each other - needs LOTS of money and diplo skill.

So we went to war with Byzantium, which was engaged at the time in a long war with Duchy of Athens. They took Hellas from D of A, and we ended up taking Hellas and Morea from them, after first siege of Constantinople.

Somewhere in all this I fought naval war with Byz and some italians - galleys are fun - i never really used them before.

Settle in for peace, catch up on stability, tech, start building tax collectors, etc.

As soon as the truce was over (1433?) i went after Byz again (im trying to keep the tempo up,as I dont know how long Murad lives, or if the next monarch will be a leader with such good stats - ah the joy of playing as a country whose history one doesnt know all that well )

Force annexed, and then got the very interesting sequence of events.

1. City of Mens desire - I went with the historical choice. I presume main reason to keep the capital where it is, would be to increase economic return in Asia, vs Europe? Or dont the straights matter? Also, the culture conversion, while historically interesting has little gameplay importance, since Ive got both Greek and Turkish cultures. Only really matters if somebody else were to conquer these provinces, but im NOT going to let THAT happen. The religion conversion of course is something else

2. Patriarchy event - well that took a lot of thought - I finally went with keep the patriarchy, but new patriarch. Mainly for the slider effects

3. Italian trade agreements - I went with the ahistoric choice - I kept the agreements - cause thats the honest kinda guy I am - and cause I liked the effects, including the infusion of cash. But Im wondering if it was a huge mistake passing up on the COT?

Well, Im back to using that cash, finishing the last tax collectors, starting on some conversions, etc when Hungary (which has annexed Serbia - and so borders me) DOW's me. Along with their allies, the Croats and Siebenburgen. Damn. well thats an opportunity, though I havent really prepared for it. I invite AK along, but they wont be much use.

It goes a little hard at first, as they assemble a force of like 80,000 troops (pretty big army for the 15th C, no?) I let them siege Bulgaria, and assemble a counter force of like 40,000 in Macedonia. Then they do their crazy "lets all starve while we have a giant siege" thingie, which helps, and their attack with too few troops thingie. And then Wallachia and Moldovia attack the Hungarins, Allah bless them!

[Nikolai]

You didn't get the COT? Not sure if that was wise.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Nikolai
You didn't get the COT? Not sure if that was wise.

Oops

well, it should help keep things interesting.

Meanwhile Ive vassalized Teke (rather than annexing it - had to make up for my silliness on the COT - RPwise, the Ottoman court has looked at the negative reaction to its annexation of whatever the hell it was called, and decided to go easier on fellow Turkish muslims.

Oh, and the first two conversions failed - Id say the slef insertion character should be feeling the heat, but the game gave me a promotion (based on the peace with Teke)

[lord of the mark]

1448, Istanbul(1)


Moshe Cordovero Pasha, personal advisor to Sultan Murad II, paced to and fro in his room(2). There were several leading viziers(3) out for his head (there were whispers about the Jew, the Spanish Jew, though he had been born in Salonica(4)) and the news, especially the diplomatic news, was not good. Cordovero had been deeply involved in the plot to annex Keraman - it had been his idea from the beginning, he had run the contacts inside Keraman personally - when the emir of Keraman had pulled off the palace coup and not only foiled the annexation, but repudiated vassalage(5), it had reflected on Cordovero personally.

He sat down, took a sip of wine(6), and reflected on the politics of Keraman, searching for something he could have done differently. The anti-Ottoman faction was mixed, but he recent intelligence suggested that some may have been alienated by Istanbuls general reputation for belligerency and lawlessness. While it was his personal belief that there were still considerable opportunities for expansion in the Balkans (and the string of military victories, including the recent defeat of Skandkerbeg(7) and the following conquest of Albania) had certainly improved his standing with the Sultan, and even with some elements in the Ulema(8), it was perhaps time to slowdown. He also knew the Sultan was dreaming of a great beautification of the capital, something other than war to mark his greatness - since its conquest the capital had been a ramshackle affair, mosques converted from churches, govt done in old, decaying, Greek buildings - a great new set of edifices, palaces, mosques, libraries, (9) would seal the legitimacy of the state, and perhaps appeal to the Turks beyond the borders as well. But to afford that would mean deferring further wars, and even skimping on the effort to spread Islam in the Balkan provinces (not that Cordovero PERSONALLY was devoted to the spread of the Prophet's word, but it was an excellent way to keep the Sunni Ulema on his side)

Well, there was no success in life without risk, and risks he would take.


1 - Yeah, I know Istanbul is a corruption of Constantinople - i have no idea when it really came to be called Istanbul, but lets keep it simple
2. I havent yet figured out where a Jew with a high place in the Ottoman govt would live - im curious though
3. I decided not to make him a vizier - there seems to be some disagreement whether a non-muslim could even hold that title, and in any case Im cool with not givng him direct administrative responsibility, which the title vizier seems to be associated with. So hes just a pasha
4. Yes, I know this is almost 50 years before the expulsion from Spain. But its not like the whole period from the late 1300s was so jolly for the Spanish Jews. So ive simply decided that Cordoveros parents left Spain relatively early and headed for Ottoman Salonica, and this bright young man has made it big - probably a physician, though im not going to focus on that
5. So i take it this always happens when annexation fails?
6. My impression is that even the muslims in OE werent all that strict about stuff like this. I presume for a Jew or Christian in high office a glass of wine at home would be routine
7. Murad vs Skanderbeg was KEWL
8. IE the Sunni clergy and juridical types as a class
9. My choice on how to interpret a "fine arts academy"

[Nikolai]

5. So i take it this always happens when annexation fails?

No. But if you try to diploannex too early, there's a large chance this will happen, the chance had been smaller if you had waited some time.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
1 - Yeah, I know Istanbul is a corruption of Constantinople - i have no idea when it really came to be called Istanbul, but lets keep it simple

IIRC the change was made around the end of the 19th century when the secular state of Turkey replaced the OE, i.e. well after the EU2 timeframe.

5. So i take it this always happens when annexation fails?

I'm surprised you failed. The first 6 sultans are all pretty good. I'm currently playing an OE game (about 150 years ahead of you now) and went down the FV/DA route twice early on with no problems as soon as the 10 years of vassalisation are up. BB shouldn't be a problem (I also did 2 FA's) as long as it is no more than half your allowed total.

6. My impression is that even the muslims in OE werent all that strict about stuff like this. I presume for a Jew or Christian in high office a glass of wine at home would be routine

You may be pushing it a bit here as the early OE was more strict. Things only eased off in the 16th century as the elite got used to the money and luxury and started to employ foreigners more readily (they were more trustworthy bodyguards and advisers).

9. My choice on how to interpret a "fine arts academy"

How the hell can you afford a FAA this early? At this stage I was busy minting to pay for more troops to kick the Lithuanian/Polish alliance out of my territory. The economy only started to take off in the mid 1500's after I had governors in place.

Like you I didn't know the events file for the OE. There is one event you do need to know about though as it replicates a quite crucial historic event.

Spoiler:

If you control the Egypt province after 1510 (that is your troops successfully besiege it) you inherit all the Mameluk territory.

[lord of the mark]

IIRC the change was made around the end of the 19th century when the secular state of Turkey replaced the OE, i.e. well after the EU2 timeframe.

IIUC thats when the name was officially changed, but the name Istanbul, or even Stamboul, was used informally for years before.

I'm surprised you failed. The first 6 sultans are all pretty good. I'm currently playing an OE game (about 150 years ahead of you now) and went down the FV/DA route twice early on with no problems as soon as the 10 years of vassalisation are up. BB shouldn't be a problem (I also did 2 FA's) as long as it is no more than half your allowed total.

I dont know what happened, but i did fail. BB was less than half, I think, though it was still high - like 15 out of 35 or so.

You may be pushing it a bit here as the early OE was more strict. Things only eased off in the 16th century as the elite got used to the money and luxury and started to employ foreigners more readily (they were more trustworthy bodyguards and advisers).

Pushing it on the wine, or having a Jewish advisor? I dont care much about muslims drinking wine - i suppose youre right. On the advisors -well there werent all that many Jews in the OE before 1492 (some Greek speaking Jews, and I suppose a few early migrants from Spain like my character, but not many) My impression is that Christians played a significant role from practically the very beginning, when the Ottomans were just a beylik at Bursa. I was reading the first chapter of an OE history at the library (which i didnt take out, unfortunately) and the whole Turkish-Byz border in the 14th cent was kinda crazy - sufis, syncretist sects, and stuff like that IIRC. They may have become more "orthodox" by the mid 15thc, I dont know, i didnt get that far. A good area to do more research.

How the hell can you afford a FAA this early? At this stage I was busy minting to pay for more troops to kick the Lithuanian/Polish alliance out of my territory. The economy only started to take off in the mid 1500's after I had governors in place.

Ive got tax collectors in every province (and managed to convert two euro provinces to Sunni before i decided to save up for the FAA) and am bringing in census taxes of 100 to 120 ducats every year depending on stab. The european powers are all at war with each other - Poland and Lithuania are both at war with Russia, Poland I think was at war with Bohemia, etc etc. Tuscany has Bosnia and Ragusa, but isnt really a threat. I took Serbia and Kosovo from Hungary - im not afraid of them either, and theyre busy with some central european war now. So i havent been at war in several years, and the army is well under support limits (37000 out of 54000 I think) Im up to about 830 ducats in 1450, so i should be able to start the FAA in one or two years. (infl is just below 9%)

Like you I didn't know the events file for the OE. There is one event you do need to know about though as it replicates a quite crucial historic event.

Well I looked - i was aware of an event like that, but thought it was pure inheritance event. Well Im not going to go take that province just to get the inheritance, but I'll see how it roleplays out, and look for a reason to go to war.

[lord of the mark]

summer, 1454, Istanbul

The sweat poured off the neck of Moshe Cordevero Pasha, formerly principle advisor to the Sultan. If only that were the only bodily fluid that would pour from it, Cordovero thought.

How ironic to face the ax here. He had built this palace. This was the gem of the beautification he had planned with the then Sultan, Murad. He had left the plans for the mosques to his allies among the ulema, left various other public building to viziers he was cultivating - but this palace was to be both the well designed nerve center of the regime, and its finest expression. And of course it had an execution chamber.


Which Cordevoro certainly should have known he might be a "user" of. He'd always has numerous enemies, as much for his policy decisions as for his Jewish faith. Murad had protected him, as they conquered,and rebuilt the capital together. But Murad had died while inspecting the army in Serbia, and never returned to see the newly completed capital.

Mehmet had shown enthusiasm however, and at first seemed willing to go along with Cordoveros schemes, though the bond between them was weaker. The continued rocky relations with Kerman, culminating in Kerman rejecting Istanbuls offer of peacefull vassalization, and the withdrawing from the alliance when the White Turks (Aq Qoyonlu), the Ottomans allies, made war on Qara, was a sour point for Cordovero, though only a few well placed in imperial policy were really concerned.

Then, as the long unsettled state began to express new loyalty to the Sultanate, and its gleaming expressions in the capital, Cordovero suggested taking advantage of that, and the various european wars, by attacking Tuscany, and grabbing its Balkan provinces, Bosnia and Ragusa. The young sultan, eager to lead an army in war, agreed.

The criticism mounted when Tuscany brought almost all of Italy in as allies, including Venice and the Papal States. While some Sunni Imams were wildly enthusiastic about the jihad (and were willing to overlook Cordoveros new policy of virtually complete tolerance for Orthodox Christians) many officials were shocked at the diplomatic incompetence. The White Turks joined the Ottomans, but it was not clear how effective they would be.

At first the war went well, the Tuscans withdrew their field army, and sieges were established in Bosnia, Ragusa, and Ionia, and with large scale support from the White Turks. Ionia fell. But soon the tide turned. Ragusa held firmly. A large Italian army relieved Sarajevo, and delivered Memet a bitter defeat. Italian fleets defeated the combined Turkish fleet, and cutoff the forces in Ionia. Casualties rose, and support for the govt fell.

But the Italians went too far, sending forces deep into the balkans, and even into Anatolia, where they faced ambush, hunger, and renewed Turkish martial vigor. At last a large army was reassembled under Mehmet, and invaded Bosnia again, finally capturing Sarajevo. But again a large Italian force threatened, and Mehmet withdrew, leaving Sarajevo withstand an Italian siege this time.

But the weariness of the people grew. And there were men willing to take advantage of it. A mob had assembled outside Cordoveros house, calling for the head of the "jewish dog". He went out the secret underground passage he prepared to a neighboring house, but was siezed there by soldiers - obviously this was something carefully prepared by men who knew his intimate secrets, not a spontaneous riot.

Well, hed never been a religious man, not at all, but he recited the Shma, and prepared to meet his ancestors, and face his judgement. A group of viziers looked on - clearly they had the consent, if not the enthusiasm of the Sultan. Some of them he knew to be friendlier to him, but clearly circumstances had put those on the defensive.

then there was rustle in the back of the crowd, and a man in spurs strode into the room. "An urgent message for the Viziers, from Sultan Mehmet II"

It couldnt be a pardon, out of regret - Cordovero knew Mehmet wasnt the sort to waver like that - besides, that was for old stories.

And indeed it was no such thing.

The senior vizier read the message and announced - Praise to Allah, may peace be upon him - the lords of the infidels have sued for peace, offering both Bosnia and Ragusa, and the Sultan has accepted!!!

A roar went up from the assembled crowd, and even Cordovero, who was trying to recall snatches of psalms, and had managed "lo ira ra" looked up with a smile.


Ali Ahmed Pasha, Vizier of the Province of Smyra, rose and implored - in the view of this news, and the success of the war begun by Cordovero Pasha, I suggest the current judicial action be suspended, and Cordovero Pasha be transferred to the north wing of the palace, to be held under guard until the Sultan returns.

Cordovero smiled, inwardly this time. He couldnt have done it better himself - attempting to free him would have gone to far. But he was quite sure what the outcome would be. As the guards grabbed him, and pulled him out of the chamber, he hummed a Spanish tune, of spring in Cordoba, that his father had taught him when he was a boy.