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Organized: Is it too weak?

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  • Organized: Is it too weak?

    After playing a few bouts of CIV IV, and intentionally trying all of the different traits, I am generally pleased with how well they are balanced. My compliments to the beta team. The one trait that does not seem to excite me is the Organized trait. For those unfamillar with it, the trait reduces the upkeep costs of your civics choices. There are several problems with this that I can tell.

    1. Upkeep costs in most of my games have been neglible. The main reason seems to be that many of my favorite civics choices are no or low upkeep. At most, they seem be only medium upkeep. The only high upkeep civic I use with any frequency is Organized Religion. The other ones (Police State and Environmentalism) are very situational. So basically what I am saying is I have never noticed upkeep to be much of a drain on my finances.

    2. I have not tested this throughly, but my gut feeling after a few noble-level games is that financial will get you a lot more money in the average game than organized. I may be off base on this, but the first games I have played seem to support this thinking. Of course, for a balance reasons, we would want organized to reward the player with a comparable amount of extra income over the length of an average game.

    The one positive thing I will say about Organized is that it gives you extra motivation to try to take advantage of any of the strategic options afforded by the high upkeep civics. For example, in a game as Tokugawa, I felt the need to stay in organized religion under circumstances I would have switched to pacifism or free religion. So the trait is not without it's uses, but I just feel that they are not as ample as those offered by the other traits. Fortunately, it is very early, and there is plenty of time to do a little tweaking. Perhaps civics costs in general need to be slighly increased to make organized's savings more substantial.

    I would be particularly interested in knowing how the betas feel about organized as compared to the other traits.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Organized is a funny trait; you definitely need to leverage its benefits with intent, and it does seem to favor warmongers. (Vassalage, Police State, etc.) Don't knock the cheaper courthouses, though - that can be a big advantage in placing long-distance locations.
    Friedrich Psitalon
    Admin, Civ4Players Ladder
    Consultant, Firaxis Games

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    • #3
      Would i be correct in saying that the organized trait is for people who like to expand rather fast (not ICS), and have a larger empire?

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      • #4
        Yes and no; Organized cuts the cost of CIVICS in half- not the cost of city maintenance. So if you're using expensive civics while expanding at high speed, organized can be a big help; if you're using the base civics while expanding at high speed, it won't help nearly as much. The cheaper courthouses, on the other hand, affect both.
        Friedrich Psitalon
        Admin, Civ4Players Ladder
        Consultant, Firaxis Games

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        • #5
          But how larger empire? 8, 9, or 13 city?

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          • #6
            There is no specific single amount; CIV isn't about "correct answers." It depends on your finances, your ability to maintain more cities, how far away those cities are, etc,etc,etc...
            Friedrich Psitalon
            Admin, Civ4Players Ladder
            Consultant, Firaxis Games

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            • #7
              And the good point of Organized is that it really makes running Organized Religion easier - it's an expensive civic. The cheap Courthouses really help - basically, you can build them quickly even in minor cities.
              Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
              Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
              I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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              • #8
                Is there any way to change the effect organized has by modification? If not this trait will stay underpowered for most games and most playstyles.

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                • #9
                  All the civics are in XML and can be modded by those who so desire.

                  As far as improving Organized...

                  You do NOT want to see Fried with no civic maintenance in a MP game.

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                  • #10
                    Yeah, I played Fried when Organized gave a "No civic Upkeep" bonus.

                    He ended the game with more than double my points total, and rampaged through my defense, and razed my capital (ended up destroying his stack and recapturing everything, but the game was up then).

                    No Civic upkeep is useful. Wjile you epand, build missionary units to spread your state religion, and run the Ord Rel civic. Beeline tio courthouses. You can out expand everyone else peacefully if you want, that way, and build up fast due to the extra 25% bonus to building producton...
                    You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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