Forbidding more than one politics, etc

doodle_diddle · September 7, 2005, 02:27

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I cannot seem to get it to work.

I am creating a faction that I would like to limit its SE choices to Police State and Frontier (not allowing Democracy or Fundamentalism) and forbid it from using Green economics.

Is there a method of doing this?

Thanks

Illuminatus · September 7, 2005, 02:49

I think it is hardcoded to have only one SE preference and only one SE aversion.

Major Guz · September 7, 2005, 05:30

Originally posted by doodle_diddle
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I cannot seem to get it to work.

I am creating a faction that I would like to limit its SE choices to Police State and Frontier (not allowing Democracy or Fundamentalism) and forbid it from using Green economics.

Is there a method of doing this?

First of all: Stupid questions are the ones you don't ask

!

I don't know if this will work, but you could try editing the faction profile in the text editor (not the one supplied with the game, just plain old text editing), in the first part you have to add AVERSION, DEMOCRACY, AVERSION, FUNDAMENTALISM
Ore something like that. Please check by looking to the hive.txt (which has aversion to Democracy) and the university.txt (which has aversion to fundamentalism). Use these parts which state their aversion and then copy-paste them into your faction profile.

That's the best I can come up with. If you already tried this, I am sorry I could not help you.

Please let us know how it turned out.

Good luck

binTravkin · September 7, 2005, 06:35

It won't work, however you might make them a little less desirable to AIs, but changing the 3rd value of aversion and preference lines in {faction}.txt - open the file yourself and see, you'll find it pretty easily.

doodle_diddle · September 7, 2005, 12:25

I tried that Major Guz. Thanks for the suggestion though. I got the idea from a NetworkNode factions that said it limited their Politics to just Frontier. When I tried it with mine, it didn't work so I guess it wouldn't work with their's either.

binTravkin, could you elaborate on your suggestion? Maybe with an example?

Thanks!

binTravkin · September 7, 2005, 12:47

I already expected you'd ask..

The Hive.txt file (important lines bolded):

Code:

#HIVE
Human Hive, The Despot, Hive, M, 1, Yang, M,  1,  1, 0, 1, 0,
  TECH, DocLoy, FACILITY, 4, SOCIAL, +GROWTH, SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, --ECONOMY, IMMUNITY, EFFIC
  Politics, Police State, POLICE
  Politics, Democratic, nil

So, I was talking about the 3rd value, which in this case is:
POLICE for preference
and
nil for aversion

Now, let's say you want to almost disable Hive going any Economy.

1st step:
Take a look at preferences.
What do we have there? - POLICE
And what do we have for FM SE? -5 Police!
Does it mean Hive will like FM? Noooo.

2nd step:
Take a look what's left:
Planned and Green.
Have you ever seen Hive running Green when not surrounded by heavy fungus?
I guess no.
So what's left? Right, Planned.

3rd step:
Make Hive disable Planned.
You have used your preference slot, so you can't use EFFIC as a preference (as that would make hive NOT like Planned but like Green).
But your aversion slot is free.
So what's the biggest value of Planned?
GROWTH, correct:

Code:

  Politics, Police State, POLICE
  Politics, Democratic, GROWTH

(important string bolded)

This combination will have Hive going for POLICE-rich SE while avoiding GROWTH-rich SE.
It also works the other way around:
This combination will have Hive going for GROWTH-poor SE while avoiding POLICE-poor SE.

So, what's left.
Hive now will like green, because it has aversion to Growth gives Green SE +2 in Hive's "opinion".

What can you do.

1.You know that Hive will always take Police if possible and the Democracy disabling does not change anything.
2.So you make Hive not able to run green:

Code:

  Politics, Police State, POLICE
  Economics, Green, GROWTH

Now, looking at the "Politics" hive thinks like:
"Heah, I have a pref here and Im gonna take it - Police State"

Looking at the "Economics" hive is like:
"Hmmm, Im unable to go Green, FM has SUCH a high Police minus (-5 "opinion") I'd never run it, also Planned has this stupid growth (-2 "opinion"), so Im gonna take the default chance - Simple, as it does not offend my agenda (read - preferences)

Looking at the "Values" hive is like:
"Hmm, Im indifferent here as none of the SE has any undesired-to-me effects, so Im gonna take power because Im an agressive fellow."

And finally looking at the "Future Society" hive is like:
"Eudaimonia is disgusting - it gives GROWTH (-2 "opinion") while Thought Control is just what I need (+2 "opinion")!"

So you've effectively got a faction running Police/Simple and later Power.

This aversion line is usually ignored by modders but the combination of the two is very powerful.

If you somehow run in the case where you got aversion to the positive value and preference of other postive value of the same SE, like liking Growth but disliking Effic for democracy, you can calculate the total "opinion" by summing them up which in this case is 2 - 2 = 0.

Also there's hidden agenda by AIs when to take which SE or politics which can sometimes make it defect from your forced scheme (but that's gonna be under some special circumstances which are rare).

Maniac · September 7, 2005, 13:04

I'm having a problem with the Morganites in SMAniaC.

Private/Free Trade economies come available later than Private/Protectionist economics, so I'd want Morgan to run Private/Protectionist until Free Trade becomes available. That's why I've set their preferences & aversions to this:

Economics, Private/Free Trade, ECONOMY
Economics, Planned, nil

Morgan refuses to run Protectionist though, and rather prefers Subsistence economy, even though it has a lower ECONOMY value. Any idea what I could do?

Here's the economics line of my SE system:

Subsistence, None,
Private/Free Trade, PlaEcon, +++ECONOMY, +RESEARCH, -TALENT, --INDUSTRY, -SUPPORT
Planned, Algor, ++GROWTH, +INDUSTRY, --EFFIC
Private/Protectionist, IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, -TALENT, -INDUSTRY, -SUPPORT

GeoModder · September 7, 2005, 13:19

I would suggest replacing the Private/Free Trade line with something else. Since he goes for Economy, he'll switch to Free Trade anyway due to the Economy value, but I think there's more chance he'll take Private/Protectionist first if he comes to it without being 'eager' for Free Trade.

Maniac · September 7, 2005, 13:26

Hmm, yeah...
I could switch his preference to Plutocrat.

The drawback would of course be that Morgan won't be pissed off anymore if you run Planned, and that running Plutocrat would become even more attractive.

GeoModder · September 7, 2005, 13:28

Perhaps he will be 'pissed off' later ingame then, when he is in a stronger position and can make a harder fist? Or perhaps not, seeing that you put an extra -1 support in the Free Trade line.

doodle_diddle · September 7, 2005, 13:36

Thanks for the example. That cleared everything up. I didn't know that you could put something in the third field for aversion.

Future Society, Thought Control, POLICE
Politics, Democracy, PLANET

So this will make them choose police state, avoid Free Market and Green and not allow Democracy and when they get a future society, they will choose Thought Control. Right?

GeoModder · September 7, 2005, 13:57

It *might* be that with those preferences in a war he will switch to Fundamentalism.

doodle_diddle · September 7, 2005, 14:46

Yeah I thought of that GeoModder but my faction is totally against Democracy and Planet so I don't want him going Green and it seems the only way to limit that is by making him avoid PLANET. If he turns fundy I guess that is okay. The faction is called the Oppressors and religion has had its fair share of oppression! LOL

binTravkin · September 8, 2005, 03:41

Maniac, have you noticed that your desired SE stands in the 'Green' slot?
Morgan is thinking it's 'Green' if you don't point him to take it (give him a bonus in 'opinion' about it):

Code:

Economics, Private/Free Trade, ECONOMY
Economics, Planned, INDUSTRY

Now he will have a +2 for Private/FT and a +1 for Provate/Protect.

If it's not enough, you can try to fiddle more with SUPPORT or TALENT

doodle_diddle, your scheme has a double-definition:

Code:

Future Society, Thought Control, POLICE
Politics, Democracy, PLANET

Don't you think that if you set POLICE as a value, they'll take TC(Thought Control) anyway?
If the faction is 'agressive', it furthermore tilts it to TC.

Code:

nil, nil, POLICE
Politics, Democracy, PLANET

is completely enought to make it usually run Police State/Planned (yes, they will run planned with this setup!) and probably Fundy/Planned at wartime.

So, you now have one free slot - the SE preference slot to use for anything you want, either ensuring he'll always take Police by setting

Code:

Politics, Police State, POLICE
nil, nil, PLANET

(note that aversion to democracy is not needed as AI will now take Police State and only it, so you now have one more free slot for disabling something)

or anything else which makes sense/does not overlap with other settings (as your original setup does).

doodle_diddle · September 8, 2005, 22:19

True, but when a person plays the faction, they can choose Democracy which I don't want them to. Before I changed it I had

Future Society, Thought Control, INDUSTRY
Politics, Democracy, PLANET

Is this better?

binTravkin · September 9, 2005, 08:12

This would make an AI go:

?*/FM**/Wealth/Thought Control

* - means it will mostly be taking default option, but Fundy at wartime.

** - It will take FM because -3 planet which translates into "+3" 'opinion'.

If you want the AI to take Police State and also not FM, you need:

Code:

Economics, Planned, POLICE
Politics, Democracy, nil

Now it will be going

Police State/Planned/Thought Control/?*

* - depends on how agressive it is and on phase of the game, but if you want to alter it, use the free aversion slot.

doodle_diddle · September 9, 2005, 08:33

Why would it take FM instead of Planned when FM doesn't give any benefit to Industry but Planned does? Would it do it simply because of my Planet aversion?

I can see why it would take Wealth because it gives a +1 bonus to Industry.

How about this?

Future Society, Thought Control, INDUSTRY
Politics, Democracy, ECONOMY

If I understand correctly, the AI will pick Planned, Police State (possibly Fundy), Knowledge or Wealth, and Thought Control.

I am not sure about the Knowledge or Wealth because both are at 0 level for Benefit/Aversion. How will it decide?

Thanks for your help.

Maniac · September 12, 2005, 09:05

Thanks for the Morganic advice

binTravkin · September 13, 2005, 02:41

Why would it take FM instead of Planned when FM doesn't give any benefit to Industry but Planned does? Would it do it simply because of my Planet aversion?

Planned = +1 INDUSTRY
FM = -3 PLANET

Your preference is INDUSTRY, so Planned recieves +1 'opinion'.
Your aversion is PLANET, so FM recieves -(-3) = +3 'opinion'.
Which one is bigger?

Economics, Planned, POLICE
Politics, Democracy, nil

= Police State/Planned/Thought Control/Knowledge|Power*

*Depends on agressiveness - bigger(1) = power, smaller(-1 or 0) = knowledge, wartime = power

Future Society, Thought Control, INDUSTRY
Politics, Democracy, ECONOMY

=indifferent*/Planned/Thought Control/Knowledge**

*you disable Democracy - AIs favourite choice in peacetime, so it will most probably take default at peace and Fundy at wartime.

**Power has -2 INDUSTRY, thus -2 'opinion'

Your last example is kinda 'makeshift' because it makes the pushes to incorrect directions.
Few hints:

1.Make aversions/preferences on SE effect a common choice.
It is always better to put a INDUSTRY bonus if you want to get Planned/Eudaimonic/Wealth or ECONOMY if FM/Eudaimonic/Welath than anything else.
That way you shoot 3 ducks with one shot.
Your aversion of economy does very little to improve the situation in this particular case.

2.Do not use Future Societie's as preferred ones -they're too far in game to not be a wasted slot.

Please compare my example and yours. I think mine fits better for:
1.Avoiding Demo
2.Avoiding Green
3.Going for Police and Though Control
And you get one free aversion slot in case you want to put a stronger emphasis on something, as I stated:

* - depends on how agressive it is and on phase of the game, but if you want to alter it, use the free aversion slot.

Thanks for the Morganic advice

No prob.

ONe day I'll write guide on SMAC SE definitions as it seems I've the only one who've tested them thoroughly and know who is who..

doodle_diddle · September 13, 2005, 16:50

=indifferent*/Planned/Thought Control/Knowledge**

*you disable Democracy - AIs favourite choice in peacetime, so it will most probably take default at peace and Fundy at wartime.

**Power has -2 INDUSTRY, thus -2 'opinion'

Your last example is kinda 'makeshift' because it makes the pushes to incorrect directions.

Actually, this is the closest to what I actually want which is a researching industrial warmonger.

Also, does the AI factor in support as a detriment to INDUSTRY? I assume not since you list it as indifferent. I mean, if you are a police state, you can support more troops and it doesn't hinder your production whereas a demo and fundy, it does.

Chaos Theory · September 13, 2005, 20:30

While anything is possible, the AI is dumb, and I wouldn't expect it to link the effects of support and industry.

binTravkin · September 14, 2005, 02:25

There are only a couple of things AI rates and they're INDUSTRY, ECONOMY and the 'green', 'thought control' and 'fundy' SE choices.

INDUSTRY is AIs early game objective, but it is far weaker than your set of preferences/aversions.

ECONOMY is late game (meaning over 2200) objective, and is also far weaker than your set of preferences/aversions

The 3 SE slots I named AI links to being:
'green' - 'lotsa fungus around' choice
'fundy' and 'thought control' - 'Im at war' choices

The example above where Maniac didn't have his AI acting for his liking was a good one.
The Morganic AI avoided the 'green' slot even if the choice there is not 'Green' anymore but something called different and with different effects.

This is also far weaker than your preference/aversion set.

doodle_diddle · September 14, 2005, 16:38

So the conclusion is the AI is very stupid. I can't wait until Civ IV is modded to SMAX. I hope thier AI will be better.

Thanks for your advice.

Maniac · September 14, 2005, 18:08

Originally posted by binTravkin
The 3 SE slots I named AI links to being:
'green' - 'lotsa fungus around' choice
'fundy' and 'thought control' - 'Im at war' choices

The example above where Maniac didn't have his AI acting for his liking was a good one.
The Morganic AI avoided the 'green' slot even if the choice there is not 'Green' anymore but something called different and with different effects.

Actually as far as I can tell from what I've seen the AI do, I doubt that Private/Protectionist being on Green economics' previous spot has anything to do with it. While Morgan refused to run Private/Protectionist, all other factions capable of getting +1 energy/square are more than willing to run Protectionist, and the amount of fungus around doesn't seem to matter.

Likewise, in war a Unitary Police State (placed on the Police State spot) seems to be the preferred AI politics choice, and not Federal Police State, placed on Fundy's spot.

Regarding the Future Society line, replaced in SMAniAC with the Society line with options Cybernetic, Anthropocentric & Green, the AI often seems to prefer Anthropocentric (+2 Growth, +1 Morale, -3 Planet) in both war and peace.

binTravkin · September 15, 2005, 03:52

Yes, the 'tilt' done by the 'spot thoughts' of an AI is very small as an effect, but I think at least SmackSim once confrmed that AIs with lotsa fungus around are somehow attracted to the rightmost slot in the Economics field.

Your SE values are big enough for most factions to ignore this effect, Morgan, however, needed a little push to take it.

Maniac · September 17, 2005, 18:06

Originally posted by GeoModder
I would suggest replacing the Private/Free Trade line with something else. Since he goes for Economy, he'll switch to Free Trade anyway due to the Economy value, but I think there's more chance he'll take Private/Protectionist first if he comes to it without being 'eager' for Free Trade.

I switched Morgan's preference to Plutocrat and now he runs Private/Protectionist.