Is America any different then Saudi Arabia?

[Vesayen]

What is the purpose of goverment, in your opinion?

Is it to protect the "rights" of the individual, as defined by the society?

Is it to improve the condition(subjective) of individuals?

Is it to improve the condition(subjective) of society?

I've been thinking about this alot latley. Like most of apolyton i've thought about these questions a great deal for many years.

I don't know the answer to the first question. I am unfortunatley really seeing little difference between the despots of the middle east, and the U.S. goverment.

The average member of both societies, effectivley has identical effect on the goverment(i.e. zero, or a very small number, aproaching zero). For all our freeomds in the U.S., in action we have no more control over our goverment then a woman in Saudi Arabia does.

You *COULD* run for office or try to form a political movement but without massive financial or political backing, you are doomed to failure.

The case in my point, is the anti war protests a few years ago. Millions showed up in some places for some of the larger marches.... fox isn't the only news network that simply *IGNORED* them entirley, not mentioning them.

*ALL* major news outlets, have one goal: Make money. They don't care about their social or moral obligations.

The only way to have an effect in the U.S. is to mobilize the masses and the only way to do that, is to use the media... which is owned, or influenced tremendously by the same who currently enforce the status quo.

You know what has triggered my epiphamy? The ordeal with cindy sheehan(sp?). The shmere campaign she is undergoing is proof enough to me that mass mobilization of the people, for our own best self interest(like holding our politicians responsible), is impossible.

[Dis]

some of us have been to the middle east.

It's easy to say, yes there is a difference. At least we don't have those annoying prayers over the loudspeakers. I hate those.

simply put. america is a comfortable place to live. The other is not.

[Ted Striker]

Osama Bin Robertson's comments this week had me thinking on this very subject.

In many ways, we're not so different.

We have our radical elements. They are quiet for the moment.

[Pekka]

Hooters!

[Flip McWho]

America has more illusion of choice than Saudi Arabia.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Pekka
Hooters!

Yeah, try having that in the Middle East .

There are differences. Like to drink beer for one? Hell, even though the US banned alcohol, because of popular protest we brought it BACK! Imagine that... yes we do have power. It may not been seen that often, but it is there.

[Pekka]

pot!

[Flip McWho]

He's got a point there.

[Berzerker]

What is the purpose of goverment, in your opinion?

To secure our rights.

Is it to protect the "rights" of the individual, as defined by the society?

Our rights dont come from "society", they come from morality. In any inter-action among people, someone will have a greater moral claim than anyone else when a dispute arises. This greater moral authority becomes a right.

Is it to improve the condition(subjective) of individuals?

Is it to improve the condition(subjective) of society?

Both improve when people have more freedom.

[Berzerker]

Is America any different then Saudi Arabia?

Oh, hell ya. Islam sucks way more than Christianity

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Dis
It's easy to say, yes there is a difference. At least we don't have those annoying prayers over the loudspeakers. I hate those.

Yeah, you have them on tv

But seriously the diff is of course not in the individual control over the gov, but over their own lives.

[Heresson]

Lets see...
Women can't drive in Saudi Arabia, nor cross boarders unless accompanied by father, borother or husband.
You can't practice any religion but Islam in SA. To have a visible cross on your nect or in your house, to have a Bible, to pray (at least with others), to have a place of cult, to enter part of the country around the holy places if You're not Muslim, to convert from islam is a crime with severe punishments (death for apostasy etc).
You can get killed for gay activity
the country is ruled by thousands-strong royal dinasty
etc

Yeah, no real differences.

[Mr. President]

Heresson

[Az]

they come from morality

Where's that?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Pekka
Hooters!

You don't have them in SA, but there's lots of them behind Jordan's boarder, Saudis come there to relieve themselves - so I have heard from people who have been there.

[Az]

I think you might be confused with 'hookers', Heresson. Hooters is an american fast food chain. sort of.

[Sava]

It's a sit-down resturaunt... not fast food...

it's like TGIFridays or Chilis...

but with hot chicks

[Theben]

Originally posted by Vesayen
You know what has triggered my epiphamy? The ordeal with cindy sheehan(sp?). The shmere campaign she is undergoing is proof enough to me that mass mobilization of the people, for our own best self interest(like holding our politicians responsible), is impossible.

You realize of course that the same media outlets that shirked the anti-war demonstrators are responsible for your awareness of Sheenan? And the smear campaign against her is proof of her effectiveness; otherwise the right wing would ignore her. I agree that one person can't go toe-to-toe with the pres, but would you want any citizen to be able to do that?

[Dr Strangelove]

I'd say that government should attempt to expedite all three mission goals mentioned in the OP.

We have a better legal system and we do not have an aristocratic society in which a person of the lower class can be beheaded just for trying to get to first base with a female of the ruling class.

You can parody the fundies in the US if you don't like them and you won't be beheaded, imprisoned, or bombed. At most they can try to sue you, but provided that you stayed within ther limit of the law they won't succeed.

[mrmitchell]

You *COULD* run for office or try to form a political movement but without massive financial or political backing, you are doomed to failure.

You start from the bottom. No average Joe was putting together lint rollers in the assembly line and said, "hey, this year I'm going to run for President," and ended up winning.

[Proteus_MST]

Your chances are higher in America to get rich and therefore be one of those who decide who will rule the country for the next four years
unlike SA, where it is rather determined from birth on if you have a say in the country or not.

[Ming]

Originally posted by mrmitchell

You start from the bottom. No average Joe was putting together lint rollers in the assembly line and said, "hey, this year I'm going to run for President," and ended up winning.

Just like in most real countries... The same arguments the trolls are using against the US can be said about most major countries... so just a silly troll and nothing more... Anybody that thinks they are similar really needs to continue their education...

[Urban Ranger]

The purpose of the state apparatus is to protect the interests of the ruling class. In the US it is the capitalists. In SA it is the royals (AFAIK). As a result, there are superficial differences, but fundamentally, they are the same.

Of course, the US is much more sophisticated in its approach to control and/or manipulate the masses. The US appears to be much more open and the citizens have more freedoms, because the government does not need to rely on a draconian law based on religion to effect control.

It seems though the US law has been becoming more draconian and the society becoming more religious based in the recent years.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Az

they come from morality

Where's that?

It appears that Berz still thinks that "morality" is both external and absolute. Neither is true.

[Ming]

Blah blah blah... again anybody that thinks they are similar can go live there for a year and see just how wrong they are. Just a bad troll... and anybody that agrees really does need to continue their education.

[Az]

I don't think that anyone can deny that there is a huge difference between life in the US and Saudia.

[Vesayen]

Originally posted by Dis
some of us have been to the middle east.

It's easy to say, yes there is a difference. At least we don't have those annoying prayers over the loudspeakers. I hate those.

simply put. America is a comfortable place to live. The other is not.

Correct. America may be more comfortable and we may have more freedom.

I should of emphasized this more to make it clear.

We definitely have more freedom and liberties. We have more choices. Our ability to change the breadth of choices however, is still 0.

Our ability to CHANGE our government however, is effectively identical.

Originally posted by Flip McWho
America has more illusion of choice than Saudi Arabia.

Precisely, it is, an illusion.

Originally posted by Berzerker


To secure our rights.



Our rights dont come from "society", they come from morality. In any inter-action among people, someone will have a greater moral claim than anyone else when a dispute arises. This greater moral authority becomes a right.



Both improve when people have more freedom.

That is actually my exact view heh .

Originally posted by Theben


You realize of course that the same media outlets that shirked the anti-war demonstrators are responsible for your awareness of Sheenan? And the smear campaign against her is proof of her effectiveness; otherwise the right wing would ignore her. I agree that one person can't go toe-to-toe with the pres, but would you want any citizen to be able to do that?

I don't know, do you? The problem is the only way to effect change in our government without massive amounts of money or political influence, is through collective action.

The number of times individual Americans have successfully caused collective action and changes in our country without massive amounts of money or political influence, can be counted on two hands.

Originally posted by mrmitchell

You start from the bottom. No average Joe was putting together lint rollers in the assembly line and said, "hey, this year I'm going to run for President," and ended up winning.

Has that ever happened? Google a list of our presidents, they are without exception, independently wealthy(from lower upper class, to ultra CEO level rich)-this is obvious and rather basic.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The purpose of the state apparatus is to protect the interests of the ruling class. In the US it is the capitalists. In SA it is the royals (AFAIK). As a result, there are superficial differences, but fundamentally, they are the same.

Of course, the US is much more sophisticated in its approach to control and/or manipulate the masses. The US appears to be much more open and the citizens have more freedoms, because the government does not need to rely on a draconian law based on religion to effect control.

It seems though the US law has been becoming more draconian and the society becoming more religious based in the recent years.

And Urban Ranger hits the nail on the head, except for the religious part… I think good old human greed is, as it has always been the primary motivator here, not religion.






Ming you may not agree with me but this this is not a troll post. There is a difference between choice over your own life, and choice over your government(which always litigates controll over your own life as well).

We have *FAR* more choice over our own lives, did I ever say otherwise? We however, effectively have no control over our government.

[Last Conformist]

Government doesn't need a purpose. Societies without one get trounced by those that have.

Now, I could make a list of characteristics I'd like to see in a government I'd like to live under, but that would be abominably boring.

[Ming]

They have far less control over their goverment than we do... I bet the majority of people is SA would change their government... Here, the majority voted it in. And if they don't like what's going on, they can change it during the next "ELECTION"

We have as much control over our Government as pretty much any other major country. We vote! So if you are trying to say that voting is not control... then point your finger at every other major country. So yes... it's a troll.

Again... live there for a year, and then try to make that same claim.

[Ming]

Maybe you should be comparing SA to China or Russia...