Crustacian Berzerker Deity Finbar Markus Jediscum (New Millennium Eurodiplomacy)

Curumbor Elendil · January 1, 2001, 19:54

Well, it's about that time! Finbar's getting back soon, and we need to start talking about a time and day to play. Also, we need to vote on any settings about which there is dispute. One setting we haven't talked about yet is whether to use simultaneous play. I suggest using Deity's suggestion of simultaneous play until declaration of war, following which we use turns for combat. This should be relatively easy to enforce, especially among relative old-timers like us.

But let me know if you disapprove.

So ICQ or email me with the days and times you are NOT available (using eastern standard time), and I'll figure out what times are left.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 1, 2001, 20:06

The other settings about which there was some dispute were the following:

1) Banning "diplo guiding." Presumably would apply to freights, spies, & caravans as well, but not to partisans. I vote in favor of this restriction.

2) Giving the explorer an attack rating (and what that attack rating should be). I'm inclined to vote against this.

3) Keeping the explorer at 4 moves + alpine (effectively 12 moves). If we give the explorer an attack rating, I assume we scrap this and return its original movement. As this was my change, it might be expected that I favor it.

4) Banning tech from city conquest. I'm basically indifferent but am inclined to vote against this one.

5) Banning city bribe or limiting it. I think everyone wants to limit it to some extent, so how 'bout this: a vote for either banning it completely or limiting it to one bribe per turn? Remember that diplos' build cost is already hiked substantially.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 1, 2001, 20:08

BTW, ICQ me your vote rather than posting it here (so that we dont get bogged down in a long discussion about how people should vote).

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 1, 2001, 21:12

Given the Cornmaster-inspired solution to the Imbalance Problem of Simultaneous Moves (see post "God be praised!"), let's vote then on whether to use my solution (when war breaks out, save, quit, reload as turn-based scenario) or to allow unlimited simultaneous attacks.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 3, 2001, 08:50

The voting is moving along... Deity, we need your votes! Also, I haven't heard from Jedi, Markus, and of course Finbar, who'll be back in four days.

The next order of business is to determine who gets what civs. The only fair way to do this is to let everyone pick his favorite, then if there are ties to flip a coin. Also, if everyone picks the same civ, this will be a clue that maybe the map isn't balanced after all (Markus says it favors the Russians and has said he wants that civ, but everyone else seems to think the map is even).

So everyone send me or post here your top four choices, in order. I'll flip coins between those who have the same top choice, those who got bumped and have the same second choice, and so on.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

deity · January 3, 2001, 17:26

Thanks Elendil, great organising and teriffic looking scenario! You've won me with the lovely icons and the Europe map (which I originally did not like).

* I vote for SIMUL play except in wars. I suggest an anonymous message in king chat the turn before to announce that some war is going to happen in the next turn and for everyone to wait their turn order in that turn. (I think the rules require war declarations a turn ahead anyway)

* I would like the English as my civ

I go back to work next week which will restrict my playing times but I don't work on Fridays, usually, so your USA Thursday nights would work well for me and I think finbar too - the same slot as your old Diplo V.

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

Curumbor Elendil · January 3, 2001, 19:05

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by deity on 01-03-2001 05:26 PM</font>
Thanks Elendil, great organising and teriffic looking scenario! You've won me with the lovely icons and the Europe map (which I originally did not like).

* I vote for SIMUL play except in wars. I suggest an anonymous message in king chat the turn before to announce that some war is going to happen in the next turn and for everyone to wait their turn order in that turn. (I think the rules require war declarations a turn ahead anyway)

* I would like the English as my civ

I go back to work next week which will restrict my playing times but I don't work on Fridays, usually, so your USA Thursday nights would work well for me and I think finbar too - the same slot as your old Diplo V.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Unfortunately, Thursday nights don't work for Crustacian.

I don't suppose US Sunday nights or US any time Monday or Tuesday would work?

BTW, I need your 2nd, 3rd, & 4th choices for a civ, as well as your votes on the other game issues.

For the record, my civ choices are as follows:
1. Britain
2. Austria
3. France
4. Germany
So a neutral third party will have to flip a coin between us, it seems.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 4, 2001, 10:22

Well, as it turns out, everyone wants to start as the British, in splendid isolation. So I've made one small change to make them less attractive: I've disconnected Britain from Ireland. Now, my choices change to the following:
1. Austria
2. France
3. Germany
4. Britain
I'll give the rest of you an opportunity as well to change your preferences.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

deity · January 4, 2001, 15:56

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 01-01-2001 08:06 PM</font>
1) Banning "diplo guiding." Presumably would apply to freights, spies, & caravans as well, but not to partisans. I vote in favor of this restriction.

2) Giving the explorer an attack rating (and what that attack rating should be). I'm inclined to vote against this.

3) Keeping the explorer at 4 moves + alpine (effectively 12 moves). If we give the explorer an attack rating, I assume we scrap this and return its original movement. As this was my change, it might be expected that I favor it.

4) Banning tech from city conquest. I'm basically indifferent but am inclined to vote against this one.

5) Banning city bribe or limiting it. I think everyone wants to limit it to some extent, so how 'bout this: a vote for either banning it completely or limiting it to one bribe per turn? Remember that diplos' build cost is already hiked substantially.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I don't really like any of these changes except NO city bribe at all.
I think for a diplo game with limited war the other changes are not really necesary and getting a tech on conquest is a great part of the game and is limited anyway.

I'll still go for the Brits.

I'm just checking the map to see what my other choices are.....

ahh, yes...
1) Britannia
2) Turks
3) French
4) Dunno - Germans, if they had a river pheasant

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by deity (edited January 05, 2001).]</font>

Curumbor Elendil · January 4, 2001, 16:12

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by deity on 01-04-2001 03:56 PM</font>
I don't really like any of these changes except NO city bribe at all.
I think for a diplo game with limited war the other changes are not really necesary and getting a tech on conquest is a great part of the game and is limited anyway.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Votes recorded.
OK, that makes 4 votes against giving the explorer an attack rating. So that means it's impossible for that issue to win. All the other issues are still open as yet.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

markusf · January 4, 2001, 23:33

Ban city bribing, dem only games get very boring.
No tech on city capture.

I want turkey, with the new starting locations of the russain civ they are pretty much useless until after monarchy or rep.

Crustacian · January 5, 2001, 03:09

I would pick:
1)Britainy
2)Germany
3)Turkey
4)Italy

If the start locations have changed, it may change my preferance, but not regarding Britain. The other three choices are all about the same to me as a second choice, each being equal to the other to me. All I require is lots of water and a ship that does not have to be rowed unless damaged.

markusf · January 5, 2001, 13:07

First time i looked at it the russians started on the river.

Curumbor Elendil · January 6, 2001, 00:03

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 01-04-2001 11:33 PM</font>
Ban city bribing, dem only games get very boring.
No tech on city capture.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

OK. What say you regarding diplo guiding and the 4-move explorer?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
I want turkey, with the new starting locations of the russain civ they are pretty much useless until after monarchy or rep.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

OK. What are your 2nd, 3rd, & 4th choices?

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 6, 2001, 00:07

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-05-2001 03:09 AM</font>
If the start locations have changed, it may change my preferance, but not regarding Britain. The other three choices are all about the same to me as a second choice, each being equal to the other to me. All I require is lots of water and a ship that does not have to be rowed unless damaged.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I'm not sure what Markus meant when he referred to the 'new' Russian starting position: I haven't altered the starting positions for the last few weeks. Maybe he meant that the starting position in the scenario file looks different from the starting position in the map file. In any case, the current state of the starting positions is the same as what you see when you use the last available download and reveal the map.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 7, 2001, 10:01

There is a new file available for download. Just to clear up misunderstandings, here's what you do with it. Create a folder inside your "scenario" folder called "europe" and unzip the files into the "europe" folder. A folder called "sound" should be created, into which the sound files are put.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Crustacian · January 7, 2001, 17:34

Just got it and Ireland is seperated again I see.

After an experiment one thing noticed is paratroopers seem to have an unlimited ability to land. It was no end in sight of the range for them, and dropped one unit 30 squares away

Was this intended?

Crustacian · January 7, 2001, 17:39

Range from St Peters was 1 square from Berlin with paradrop.

markusf · January 7, 2001, 18:19

After play testing it abit and looking at the map, i want to change my selection

1. Austria (have 3 starting science beakers)
2. English (have 4 starting science beakers)
3. French
4. Germany

Curumbor Elendil · January 7, 2001, 21:11

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-07-2001 05:34 PM</font>
Just got it and Ireland is seperated again I see.

After an experiment one thing noticed is paratroopers seem to have an unlimited ability to land. It was no end in sight of the range for them, and dropped one unit 30 squares away

Was this intended?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yeah - paratroopers have 30 spaces range; I tripled it like the movement rates for air units.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 7, 2001, 21:14

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 01-07-2001 06:19 PM</font>
After play testing it abit and looking at the map, i want to change my selection

1. Austria (have 3 starting science beakers)
2. English (have 4 starting science beakers)
3. French
4. Germany
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Noted. Markus, I haven't gotten your votes yet on the game issues other than simul turns during wars (dip guiding, etc.) Let me know when/if you have opinions on these.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

markusf · January 7, 2001, 21:42

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 01-04-2001 11:33 PM</font>
Ban city bribing, dem only games get very boring.
No tech on city capture.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

rest i don't care

Curumbor Elendil · January 7, 2001, 22:03

To facilitate comparison among civilizations (and admittedly, to prove that one's choice should basically be random and that the map is about as fair as one can get), I have drawn up the following chart, the numbers for which I get by making what are in my judgment the most favorable allocations of workers on city terrain.

Civ...Food...Shields(*)...Trade(*)...Expansion...D efence
Russia...7...5...4...1st...3rd
Austria...8...4...4...3rd/4th...7th
Germany...8...6...2...5th...5th/6th
Turkey...8...4...2...3rd/4th...2nd
France...8...4...4...2nd...5th/6th
Britain...7...4...6...7th...1st
Italy...8...5...3...6th...4th

(*) Corruption and waste already subtracted.

Expansion means the capacity to expand without using ships. Defence means the capability to defend the heartland of your civ from non-amphibious ground attacks.

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Curumbor Elendil http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Curumbor Elendil (edited January 07, 2001).]</font>

Crustacian · January 8, 2001, 16:58

The food/shield/trade values can be equalized if need be, by either giving road, river, or other terrain change.

Curumbor Elendil · January 8, 2001, 17:58

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-08-2001 04:58 PM</font>
The food/shield/trade values can be equalized if need be, by either giving road, river, or other terrain change.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Right, but I'm not sure I want to do that, since most civs that are deficient in one of these areas make up for it with expansion or defence capabilities.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Crustacian · January 9, 2001, 03:32

This was my first choices:
1)Britainy
2)Germany
3)Turkey
4)Italy

But why for crying out load does Turkey have ey in it when none of the others do?

1)Germania
2)Turkey
3)Italia
4)Britainia is only a choice for me now cuz Deity wants them

But again, why is Turkey the only oddly spelt/spelled/spell-ed one? Or can it be Turkia?

Curumbor Elendil · January 9, 2001, 10:05

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 01-09-2001 03:32 AM</font>
But why for crying out load does Turkey have ey in it when none of the others do?

1)Germania
2)Turkey
3)Italia
4)Britainia is only a choice for me now cuz Deity wants them

But again, why is Turkey the only oddly spelt/spelled/spell-ed one? Or can it be Turkia?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I have no idea. You'll have to ask the cartographers about that one. The Turkish name for their own country is Turkiye, if you prefer that one, but I think it's even more oddly spelt.

So now we're just waiting on Finbar's choices before I can flip the coins, roll the dice, and thus assign the civs.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Curumbor Elendil · January 9, 2001, 13:08

Yet another download is available. Here are the changes I've made: 1) reduced paradrop range from 30 to 20 (I forgot to do this when I reduced air movement from triple to double the normal rate, as apparently I did a long time ago); 2) changed prerequisite for Recon Troops (formerly Alpine Troops) from Tactics to Automobile; 3) made real flag icons for all the civs.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

Crustacian · January 9, 2001, 13:17

Well that sounds like a good way to have it.
Germania looks more and more like the one for me.

"Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to?"~Clarence Darrow

Crustacian · January 9, 2001, 20:23

Currumbor,
Here is a possible alternative to Austria. "Dacia"

Some reading, and city sites & names are in these links. I feel that Austria and Germany are too close together for me to be either one. You see each capital has no way to both have cities in between really.

Maybe Dacia will make all the civs relative proximities be more alike.
This is only a suggestion. But a thought out one.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/Libs/PCL/M...donia_1849.jpg
http://www.rotravel.com/romania/history

Dacia
ancient region roughly corresponding to Romania, whose people were called Getae by the Greeks, Daci by the Romans. They had an advanced material culture. DOMITIAN tried to subdue them but ended by paying them tribute (A.D. 90). Under TRAJAN, Dacia became (A.D. 105) a Roman province, but AURELIAN lost it to the invading Goths (A.D. 250-70). The Roman legacy to Dacia was the Romance tongue Romanian.

In the 6th century B.C., there are records of the Geto-Dacians, an ethno-historical entity branched out from the great Thracian trunk. The first archaeological findings relate to the Basarabi culture in Dobrudja materialized in an exquisite kind of pottery. The Geto-Dacians inhabited the vast area that stretched between the Northern Carpathian chain and the Balkan mountains.
Geto-Dacian society flourished under king Burebista (ca 82-44 B.C.), a

contemporary and opponent of Caesar, and a friend of Pompey. Around the year 70 B.C., external conditions being propitious and Burebista's political and military actions successful, the Geto-Dacian people had a unique and firm rule, and a strong organization.
Burebista's country, rooted in the former social and political tradition, was strengthened by the king's conquest of Greek cities, like Tomis, Histria and Callatis on the Black Sea shore, and by eliminating the threat of Celtic invasion. In this way, Burebista came to rule over the whole Thracian-Geto-Dacian world, from the Haemus Mountains (the Balkans) to the Wooded Carpathians, from Tyras (the Dnestr) to the Tisza.

Controlling both sides of the Danube, Burebista was "the first and the greatest of the Thracian kings", as he is referred to in writing by Acornion of Dyonisopolis.

POSSIBLE CITY NAMES

yes a few of these are provinces)
Transylvania
Alba-Iulia
Bratei
Oltenia
Wallachia
Sucidava
Romula
Câmpulung-Muscel
Moldavia
Tomis
Histria
Callatis
Cetatea Dambovitei (Bucharest),
Târgoviste
Curtea de Arges
Suceava
Iasi
Poienari
Cetatea Neamtului
Chilia
Cetatea Alba
Tismana, Cozia, Dealu, Curtea de Arges, Neamt, Putna, Voronet, Sucevita)