Glorious Threads!

[Donegeal]

Here is one GF started on Nov 14, 2002 titled: "Secret Alliances"

(hmm... interesting.... )

GF: In many computer/network games I would have secret alliances with some of my human opponents to wipe out the other players before going to war with each other. We would talk and coordinate our forces in the shadows and kick the unsuspecting target's approriate arse.

Do we want to consider this strategy and if so who should we consider an alliance with and against?

P32: Maybe an alliance against the builder civ... before they get built up so much they are impossible to destroy.

Uno: I think if we align, it must only be with one opponent, and against all others.

Looking at it, there are two teams everyone seems to be gunning for, us and Trip's team. This would suggest a natural alliance to be formed between us, should they see it the same way...

Uber: I'm all for secret alliances, but i hate to have them predetermined.

the fact that we vocerifciously came out and said "WERE GONNA KILL ALL YOU SH*THEADS!!!!!" kinda limits our choices though, i suppose

Don: Uber, I'm kinda suprised that you didn't like that.

I must agree with Uber on this. Lets not make a predetermined alliance. Lets wait and see where everyone is and how everyone is doing first. We must also remember that making an alliance with someone would be a GREAT way to ensure the three move Rider suprize attack would work. Make an alliance with someone, put a cursory force out in battle with them to make it look like we are helping, and build up several Rider stacks just out side of their vision and pounce on their border cities while they have their main forces out fighting another civ....hmmm this could be fun...

GF:

Originally posted by UberKruX
I'm all for secret alliances, but i hate to have them predetermined.

the fact that we vocerifciously came out and said "WERE GONNA KILL ALL YOU SH*THEADS!!!!!" kinda limits our choices though, i suppose

No not really, we simply turn to our secret ally and whisper, "but we'll kill you last."

Originally posted by donegeal
Make an alliance with someone, put a cursory force out in battle with them to make it look like we are helping, and build up several Rider stacks just out side of their vision and pounce on their border cities while they have their main forces out fighting another civ....hmmm this could be fun...

Exactly. One of my favorite tactics scouting with a 6 unit stack of horsemen/knights/riders.

"What are those 6 Knights doing near my border?"

"Don't worry, their simply a scout patrol updating my map."

"6 Knights are not a scout patrol!"

"Their a scout patrol in force."

Uber: "we don't f*ck around with our patrols "

Ennet: agreed an alliance would be nice, still not too early or we might turn all the other civs against us(before we can stand them all that is) Still it all depends on how the world looks like ofcourse.

P32: Of course, we will need to know start locations before thinking of making an alliance with anyone.

[Donegeal]

For those at GS, here is the thread disscussing our initial thoughts about you. I think you will find it a little what you expected, but also a bit humbling regarding our perception of you as civ players.

Started on Nov 14, 2005 by GF:

GF: The Number One Threat

NYE's Gathering Storm just recruited some "pinch hitters" today. Sir Ralph is recruiting "the creme of the strategy forum" so to speak. I already considered it a threat with SirRalph there but it has definitely moved to #1 spot on my must kill asap list.

We might want to keep this in mind in regards to secret alliances.

Uber: i feel bad to have to kill one of my idols

P32: Feel like its an honour to be competing at the same level as some of the top Civ III players

GF: Honestly, I am not necessarily looking forward to this. It's like fighting against Rommel, Eisenhower, Napoleon, and Ghengis Khan with a worn out broomstick.

The question is do we try to ally with them OR against them?

Should we try to recruit some more strategians ourselves? Heck, even the builders are getting ready to pass us in numbers.

Of course we could always conquer them and force them into our empire.

P32: This presents an interesting point, what will happen to players when their civ gets destroyed? Can they join other groups? Sorry if there has been other discussion on the subject; I just haven't seen it.

Uber: there was some discussion but i think nothing came of it.

GF: This is starting to shape up as the Super Bowl of Civ3, the winning team is going to really have some bragging rights!

Don: I'm tending to agree with you, GF. I readly don't like the path this game is taking. I was hoping for a quick game so we could all learn a bunch about how the Multi-site game is going to go. But with NYE recuriting people, he has turned it into a popularity contest.

I am also hoping that the players he recurited really will just be stand-bys. That they won't actively participate or that their great strategic minds will be overwhelmed by the "democratic process".

Uno: Keep in mind, they have not stated their preferred civ yet either.

Being the gambling man that I am, anyone want to bet on which they are leaning towards?

And, should it come up, how would we defend against mounted warriors? (I know a few of them on the team prefer Iriquois...)

Several posts concerning how to defend against Mounted Warriors and the effects of Cats. Nothing relating to the actual game.

Don: Hmmm.... that sounds good. I propose that all our cities should be built on hills, if at all possible. We might need to sacrifice a little of the optimal location to do this, but automaticly makes spear into pikes with reguards to defensive value.

Ennet: maby not all cities, that might be hard but as many as possible i must agree too. (depend on desenty of hills through). And some fortress might be a good idea, still maby we should not put too much effort in building thoose, still good against humans i guess but they aint as good as in civ2 when you couldn't move through squares close to enemy units.
Anyway some allies wouldn't be such a bad idea. Some ppl on the forum seem to be weary about us? can't understand why.. must be something about or name or so.

Several more post concerning how we should defend our cities.

Realpolitic:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
NYE's Gathering Storm just recruited some "pinch hitters" today. Sir Ralph is recruiting "the creme of the strategy forum" so to speak. I already considered it a threat with SirRalph there but it has definitely moved to #1 spot on my must kill asap list.

We might want to keep this in mind in regards to secret alliances.

If we can scare 2 civs into believing that we can reduce them to ruble pretty fast. In this case the pen is mightier than the sword.

[Donegeal]

Face it. GS scared the crap out of every team at the start. All those big name civ III players seems to force respect and fear.

This one was a poll started by Realpolitic on Dec 7, 2002:

Discuss the threat GS poses with other civs
Yes: 1
No: 3
Abstain: 0

Realpolitic: Genghis Farb believes that Gathering Storm is collecting some of the best players, I suggest we notify other civs, so we can collectively beat the crap out of them.

P32: I think, that instead of right now, later we could organize an alliance against them if we are woried about it.

Real: Looking at the names in the memeber lists GS does have the heaviest hitters, Roleplay is not far behind, but their rules are likely to cause more despotic craziness.

GF: That was a long time ago, before the game started. I don't consider anyone a number one threat right now.

jdd2007: we shouldnt have to do this unless they do very well very early

HE: We are not in any position to do anything about it anyway...lets see where everyone is, who are our neighbours.
That information is more important before deciding to single out any Civ for destruction

Aro: Hmmm... Not yet. Anyway, Gathering Storm AND Roleplay are equally dangerous IMO. Lets wait a little, see where the other civs are, if one of them (GS or RP) is close to us ... Hot_Enamel is right.

God I miss Aro...

[ZargonX]

On the subject of GS scaring teams, here was Tibierius' initial reaction post to seeing the GS roster...

Did you see the member list for the Gathering Storm team ?

alexman
alva848
antoniomilla
Arrian
asleepathewheel
Conqueror
DeepO
Dominae
FrustratedPoet
gooberboob
JTFreak
Konquest02
Meshelic mail
nbarclay mail
notyoueither
OPD
Randolph
Sir Ralph
Soren Johnson Firaxis
Theseus
Velociryx
zeit

Soren Johnson, Firaxis ?
At least half of them are deity players (Arrian, Dominae, Theseus, notyoueither, Sir Ralph, Velocyrix, etc). They have excellent posts in the strategy forum. Only Aeson is missing

Jesus Christ! I just hope we won't start near them.

Hehe, couldn't find the post when he found out Aeson really did join!

[Donegeal]

Started on Dec 4, 2002 by Korn:

Korn: could you please list all of the other teams in the game, which civ they are, and a brief rundown on their membership and stated goals and play style

thanks in advance!

Uno: My teams:

Lux Invicta:




Mission: Balanced play style is best way to win game

Diplomat: Admiral PJ

Civ: Ottomans

Leader: Trip

Members:
Trip
punkbass2000
Falconius
BigFurryMonster
CiverDan
Vlad Antlerkov
Apocalypse
Admiral PJ
BlackOut
WarriorPoet
ixnay37
jordie
Calc II
statusperfect


Neu DemoGyptica:



Mission: Simply to play the game, no specified style listed. Their Civ3demo game suggests a warmonger leaning.

Diplomat: Still ignoring private messages.

Civ: Arabia

Leader: Borc

Members (listed on Apolyton, anyway):
Borc
[DG] Noxviri
Darekill
AroSch (Arne)
Lufia
[DG]Thors_Enkel
Redblade
[DG]helios
[DG]Nagash
marlow
[DG]Benny
[DG]Phaxx
Mazarin (Richelieu)
Zayxus
[DG]mav_son
Picahulu
[DG]Stonewall


Gathering Stom:



Mission: Originally to kick Trips Ass, have evolved into an elitist group from the strat forum.

Diplomat: zeit

Civ: Egypt

Leader: notyoueither

Members:
alexman
alva848
Arrian
asleepathewheel
chamonix*
Conqueror
DeepO
Dominae
FrustratedPoet
ManicStarSeed
Meshelic
notyoueither
Nuclear Master*
OPD
Randolph
Sir Ralph
Theseus
Velociryx
zeit

Is that what you wanted, or more detail?

Korn: that's enough detail for now, except if you have played with any of them in the demo game can you maybe give a personality profile of them...

i'm hoping that this information will allow us to find a weak spot in our enemies and attack them

Uno: Wow, that would take quite a while to list them all. How about leaders?

Trip: Aggressive personality, tends to keep things moving and not afraid to bend rules to suit his needs. Will keep his team moving, if a bit unorganized.

NYE: Calculating mind, tended to play peacemaker more often in the DG, though did get into one or two heated disputes (sometimes with yours truly). Likes things to be DECIDED 'his way' but is flexible on the execution of the decision (likes to structure the PROCESS out of game, but is willing to listen on the best course in game)

Borc: Appears to be attempting to do to much, seems to forget/overlook some things he deems unimportant. I have found him to be somewhat removed, really.

Darekill: Much more pleasant than Borc IMO, very receptive to discussion and was fairly open with me/us as an ambassador in the UN. Too bad Borc replaced him IMO...

Korn: just listing the leadership is fine, you don't have to list the other teams with as much detail but which civs are they?

Uno: I had most of that in my notepad for my personal use as Consul to those teams, actually. The others fall under Panzer's control. The Civs are(in playing order, from memory...):

1) Gathering Storm - Egypt
2) NeuDemogyptica - Arabia
3) Glory of War - China
4) Roleplay - Spain
Leader: Togas - Pleasant and intelligent fellow, lawyer in RL. Leaned more toward builder tendancies in the DG
5) Vox Controli - Persia
Leader: flash(bunch of numbers)- don't know him the slightest, tried to join us once...
6) Lux Invicta - Ottomans
7) Legoland - Carthage
Leader: Not sure, Spiffor? Spiffor was a clasic builder in the DG, tended to grate on my nerves so didn't get to know him too well. Seemed intelligent enough, but insistant on no war. Even the DIA (the builder political party) was too agressive for him.

Korn: Gathering Storm, NeuDemogyptica, and Vox Controli look like our biggest threats because of their play style and civs, though we shouldn't under estimate any of the other teams

so what course of action would you suggest in dealing with each of the civs?

Gathering Storm: i would suggest that we approach them in a careful moment, and strike as soon as we knew we had a good chance of victory, but not before then simply because i think they will be able to rally more allies than we will, and if we launch an unorganized attack i think it will be unsuccessful. They might look like builders, but I think this group is wolves in sheeps clothing.

NeuDemogyptica: i think as soon as we see any weakness from them we should take advantage of it. i think that they will have about as much chance of forming alliances as we will, and i think that while they will be solid and agressive that they won't be quite as prepared as GS

Roleplay: I think that they will have an easy time forming alliances, and that out of all of the teams we will be able to use honest diplomacy to achieve the results we want. I think that they will have a pity factor if we just launch unprovoked attacks on them that other civs wouldn't have. I also think that they will be agressive, yet unlike other teams diplomatic actions could ward off hostilities.

Vox Controli: I predict they will be one of the most hostile teams in the game, but I dont think that they will be quite as prepared or as polished as GS. I think that if we encounter them and attack them, other civs will stay out of the conflict as long as they don't think the victor will come out with too much power. Once we find them we should take them out if possible.

Lux Invicta: I think they will be polished, and hostile if they either have allies or a clear cut military advantage, but otherwise they will use caution. I'm unsure if they will be able to secure strong alliances or not. I could see them, the roleplay team, and legoland forming a fairly strong triad until the more "dangerous" civs such as ourselves are out of the way.

Legoland : Builders pure and simple. I think this will be the easiest civ to bully, and I hope they are the first civ we encounter. The earlier we meet them the easier it will be to lure them into our sphere of influence. I think that they would find being under our thumb mutually advantageous. They help us research, we help protect them, and we both get powerful in the process. I don't think they would attack unless they were fairly certain they could beat us, so gunboat (or rider) diplomacy should work quite well with them.

what is every one else's take on the other teams?

OttomusCreaser: Do NOT underestimate Roleplay. They put on a good show but have VERY aggressive and strategic members such as Togas and Arnelos. These two gleefully supported warmonger tendancies in the Civ3DG.

Uno: Actually, they both moved more builder after the first offensive (well, Arnelos has always been builder besides the war to spark our golden age)

P32: I'll post later, I'm talking to adaMada - the RP ambassador.

Don: I feel that GS will be a team to be wary of early. They went with a civ that has a cheap quick aggressive early UU and I think they will use it to go after the first civ they encounter, or maybe save their military for us.

I am also concerned with Neu Demogyptia simple because I don't know then at all. They are the big mystery. The Dark horse of the PTW-DG.

With LI "devotion" to "diversity", I feel that we will have a military advantage over them that might keep them at bay.

I have no idea what to make of Vox as its a team that formed from the OT forum. How on-topic can an off-topic team be?

RP should be a team that will be able to be maniptlated through good diplomacy. Their RP style will make them the most fun, but we should take advantage of their "history making". The negitive on them is the old addage of "two heads are better than one". They have the most members and will be less likely to miss something.

Legoland could prove to be the best partner for us. They will need an army, and we will have one for them. Could be very profitable. They might eliminate the need to research things.

In the end, I feel that we should make peace and be honest with the first civ we encounter. First impressions are a big deal. They will tell everybody that the Glory did not outright attack them and that they just wanted a contract of some sorts.

P32: Ok, I just got over talking to adaMada from Roleplay. He seems eager to get our teams cooperating, and I think things are going well between us. It seems he is trying to get his team to trust us more.

Legoland: They might be good to hire us as mercenaries, and use something like one of those 'ensured golden age' contracts. I have made contact with Jack_WWW; they don't have a foreign minister yet.

Vox: hmmmmm. Good question. Led by flash9286 (got that memorized). I have talked to him once or twice, through unofficial channels.

jdd2007: nicely done people.

are there any teams that seem like they might be good as allies in the future? temporarily of course

P32: Legoland may prove to be good allies, as they need protection. Hopefully I can convince the roleplay team to get along well with us; I'm in contact with adaMada, who is championing our cause in their team forum.

Aro: Analyzing the teams by the members, I think that our most tough enemies will be Sir Ralph/NYE and Togas/Arnelos. You can't underestimate a republican mind...
We need to keep an eye on Trip, just in case.
about allies... IMO, no one of them trust us, really...
Maybe legoland.
Ada is great, but I don't trust his team so much... In fact, I think they are the most dangerous. See the list of members of the Roleplay Team!

Real: Vox Controli and Gathering Storm also have decent ancient UU's, We need to keep an eye on them in the early game.

Legoland is very unlikely to win if they keep a builder strategy.

GF:

Originally posted by realpolitic
Vox Controli and Gathering Storm also have decent ancient UU's, We need to keep an eye on them in the early game.

Maybe we can pick a fight between them.

quote:
Originally posted by realpolitic Legoland is very unlikely to win if they keep a builder strategy.

Unless they start on a continent of their own, that would be just TOO perfect for them.

Did GF say this way back in dec of 2002?

GF: If we run into New Demogyptia do we want to wipe'em out? I think we can capture their scouts which would give us some fast moving scout units.

Are there anyother teams we don't want to wipe out immediately?

P32: Maybe legoland? We could make sort of an alliance with them, where they supply tech and we give them more power in foreign affairs.

Wow. How time changes things...

[Donegeal]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

A quote from our turn one thread (its too big to post):

Originally posted by GhengisFarb on Dec 6, 2005
I would put our chances of being able to build the Great Library and the Pyramids at 95%.

I would put our chances of building the Colossus, the Great Library, and the Pyramids at around 50%.

[Jon Miller]

at flash being our leader

he was one of our early members

but I beleive he was restricted shortly

Jon Miller
(founding member of Vox)

[UnOrthOdOx]

Oh, that was well before the game started. Can't remember where I got that from, perhaps he made the thread starting you guys?

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by Donegeal
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

A quote from our turn one thread (its too big to post):

Oh GOD, the source of one of the bigger blunders we made.

Tried for the Pyramids, lost on that, and had a LOOONG, SLOOOW prebuild for leo's. oh, the wasted potential...

Well, it worked out in the end.

[Donegeal]

Started by GF on Dec 12, 2005:

Wipe out Lux Invicta

I don't know where they are but they are holding the game hostage while they conduct a bunch of polls. I think if we run into them we should just level them to the ground. No admittance as vassals they can be the refugee team.

Ok, before I go on, just remember what GF is using as he avatar right now: A GIF of Michael Moore swinging his arms up and down while screaming into a microphone....

Ok... sorry. Had to get that out.

Uno: How long have they actually had the sav? I can't really tell by following that thread...looks more like Trip just being Trip to me (which is reason enough to level them anyway...)

Korn: not that I need a reason to engage in unprovoked aggression, but hey justification is always nice

really if someone doesn't want to be our vassels then the only reason to not declare war with them is to buildup so we can declare war on them

Aro: After all, the main objective of this game IS kick Trip's @$$, right?

Otto: I thought that was the name of this game?

HE: Someone has to be our first target I guess

P32: Lets wait and see where people are located. We don't want to pick someone to invade now, and later find they are on the exact opposite side of the world.

All this talk about kicking the crap out of a future Firaxian!!! I love it!!!

[Donegeal]

Started on Dec 13, 2005 by GF: First Contact

GF: I think Lux and New Demo have made contact with each other and thats why they are taking so much discussion between their turns.

When we make contact am I supposed to wait for the ambassadors to hash out a deal or what?

EDIT: They have made contact with us:

quote:
From email:

Hello Ghengis...
we soon will send you the save file...

but good news: our scout is shaking hand with your warrior :-)
So we are neighbours... nice to meet you! and of cause we are very interested in a peace agreement!

We also could offer you something to trade... as arabian civ we have pottery and ceremonial what you don' have as it seem... maybe you have an idea for a deal!

i will soon contact our chief diplomat Nagash but maybe we both can make the first step!

good luck and best wishes
Borc

Do we trade Masonry for Ceremonial?

P32: How about we foreign consuls talk to the other teams first about what deals we would make when we come in contact, then the turn we come into contact, we can do a deal right away. Also: what do we want to trade? Our map? Thats pretty much it for now. Later: how about the wheel? Should we trade as much as possible? As FC, I wish to do what the team as a whole wants, and not just what I think appropriate.

But, here's what I reccomend:

Trade everything!! The more we trade, the more we benefit. Also we get a better reputation, which is important for us mercenaries. Yes, trade our map for theirs. I will start talks with my teams today.

GF: Okay, so Masory and Warrior Code for Ceremonial Burial and Pottery?

Give me some feedback I don't want to delay the game all day.

Korn: don't trade anything yet, we need more time to decide on a course of action

GF: If we don't trade anything and they trade for Masonry with Lego next turn we are out in the cold.

Korn: not exactly, we can still demand a tech from them in the coming turns, i don't think we should trade yet till we fully weigh the pro's and con's more, but if you do trade anything, trade masonry since four other teams have it, but do not trade them warrior code! we are the only civ with it, and it would allow them to build archers, which could hamper our invasion

Korn: also i wouldn't be totally adverse to trading them masonry for their world map, but don't trade them our map, in fact you might either want to kill their scout or order them to remove it, and if lego really wants to be our vassels them sending us some tech as soon as we meet them would be a perfect time to prove their loyalty

P32: which techs do we have right now?

GF: First of all I don't see how we can trade maps without Mapmaking.

Currently we have Masonry and Warrior Code.
They have Ceremonial Burial and Pottery.

Korn: GF

i'm sorry for that i'm an idiot

anyways, if you do trade, trade masonry, but don't trade warrior code

P32: can we trade maps without mapmaking? i guess not...

Rookie...

Don: Masonry for Pottery. That is our best choice. Wait on WC untill we can trade it to more then one team. Pottery, on the other hand, is unique to Neu Demogyptia. Try to get that tech so we can trade it to someone else and screw ND!

GF: Pottery doesn't do much for us and Demogyptia has Scouts making it highly unlikely for us to beat them to anyone. Besides they already gave us Ceromonial Burial in advance (since they traded someone else for Masonry).

P32: they gave us ceromonial burial?

GF: Yep. Warms my heart so that I may not want to take them out immediately. Maybe they should be allowed vassal status.

I forgot about this. FYI, this went a LONG way in our relationship with ND...

[Donegeal]

By the way, I am skipping ALOT of thread and only going with ones that pertain to primarily our views of other teams, players and actions.

Oh, and I am doing this because all active posters have voted infavor of opening our forum (plus its ALOT of fun!)

[UnOrthOdOx]

The source of all the GoW Dtrategy jokes:

Started by GF: 3-20-03 thread topic: War Council: Dtrategy and Tactics

GF:

From Vox:

Greetings Ghengis. Trust all is well with you.

I assume this is still a go from your side, as I am now going to share confidential aspects of the Vox plans.

We are very close to d-day. Or more correctly named - I-day. We just played the 875bc turn. We will be set to go on 775bc. In 4 turns. We can delay to 5. We very much want to go sooner than later.

Our intel from various sources tells us that GS does not have a large army, they do not suspect anything (other than us returning to Bob), they may possibly not have a barracks, but they are researching feudalism, and will be finished in 11-13 turns. They are a republic now.

When we say 'go' in 4 turns, that means taking out their northern observer warrior. That will indicate that something is up - we will have declared war - but then we still have 6 turns to get our main force into position to attack the first city. Because of the observer set-up we can not get any closer. We will be inserting a couple units via galley on the east side to take out another GS observer warrior, and then they will be proceeding south via the galley to look for the iron source.

The question here is how big a dent can we make quickly. We are going in force. 14 Immortals and 5 spearmen in the first wave, 3 more Immortals two turns after that, and then 11 in the 6 turns after that. The re-inforcements may actually be larger, as we haven't calculated in the impact of our GA.

So - the question is - when and where should you come in. The ferry idea will still work. If you want to land two horsemen and take out the observer warrior - we can probably cover our tracks by saying it is a retaliation raid by GoW, and they took out the GS warrior so there would be no observers. That is getting a bit fancy - and they may read through it. Besides - they are so dismissive of us that the thought of GoW and NeuD landing will scare them into a bigger reaction than if they thought it was just us.

So we should probably stick to the plan where we take out the warrior. But then you could land horsemen, return to Desolation Point to pick up more, and then sail south when the bulk of their forces are reacting to our Immortal Army. They will not have much idea of its size until it emerges from the mountains next to their first city. That first city is farly close, we think, to their central core of cities, which will be our main target.

Your galleys can then sail down the west coast looking for targets of opportunity, preferably their iron source. The horseman, if any, which landed previously, will follow us down and can counter-attack chariots or bowmen should they appear. Your presence will not be known for awhile, and should add a second element of surprise.

It is four turns of galley moves from Desolation Point to a landing spot on South Estonia. But then only 2 and a bit moves south of there before you cross the 'border'. I trust this helps with your planning. I can provide more details if required.

We are committed to winning this war - and are not pulling any half measures. We will have a constant stream of units being produced from the northern cities. We have workers lined up to build the supply line. We are set to go.

Please let me know of your plans, and how you can see yourself best co-operating with our moves.

We also need to determine if any ruse is really required given how soon we are set to go. But it would still be fun to do some sabre rattling - and we are keeping GS well-informed this time of our plans to re-invade Bob.

To secrecy - and victory!

Your partner in arms .... Beta.

UnO:

Im not very good at Dtrategy myself....

How long before we have that galley, and are the horsemen ready? Plus, do we have their map, sorry, haven't had time to load up the sav for a while...

GF:

I need a @#$% Spellcheck thread.

MZ:

It could've been worse, it could have been STRATEGERY in good Dubya style...

Jesus friggin christ, 28 Immortals?!?!?!?!?!?! If they are speaking the truth then I honestly don't see how GS can withstand an attack of that magnitude. Hell, I'm starting to get scared myself...

I also insist they give us a map, it is impossible to plan this based on oral reports.

Also, I think we should inform them that GS offered to sell Feudalism shortly to ND. Perhaps they will take less time to upgrade than the 11-13 turns Beta believes. If it indeed takes 11 turns then we have a pretty good window of oportunity of around 6-8 turns to kick their butts in which even a warning will do no good to them.

However, if they get Pikes sooner than that then it's going to be rougher, hopefully they may start in 4 turns.

various reactionary posts:
Don:

And now back to our plans for the Vox/GS war:

GS is doing a helluva job talking about their strength. I am almost to the popint that I worry for us if we assist Vox. However, since I am still worried about GS even after think that Vox has 14 Immortals to kick butt with, it makes me tremble at the thought of GS in the Industrial age. We must do something about them now.

Dtrategic question: Why are we floating around two veteran horsemen?
Dtrategic answer: To attack targets of oppertunity.

DQ: Don't you think that GS will cover targets of oppertunity (like horse or Iron) with some type of unit that we will have to attack before we get there (even a worker)?
DA: Yes.

DQ: One turn to land, one turn to attack and one turn to pilliage. Do you think that two horse can last three turns in enemy territory flooded with two move War Chariots?
DA: No.

DQ: Then why do we have units on our galley?
DA: To attack tar.... um... er... I don't know. We shouldn't.

The real DA: Wrong again! We should keep atleast one horse on that galley "just in case" (which is different from ToO). Like an undefended city because of the strength of the Vox assault. Hell, if we think that GS won't leave us any "just in case" things, then we should deploy our units now and just let the galley scout. GS will see it and fear two horsemen are on it (unless they cheat, which if they do, then we would know cause we would see "just in case targets" ((((I AM NOT ACCUSING THEM OF CHEATING, just want to be prepared to... ))))) and will divert forces (maybe large forces) to defend against the coast where we have an empty galley....

Dtrategic conclusion: drop off AT LEAST one of the horse for the ground war... maybe both.

And GoW henceforth went on with Dtrategy.

[Donegeal]

This two pages of posts, but I think its important.

Started on Dec 15, 2005 by P32: RolePlay Deal

P32: Here is what adaMada is proposing:

We have Ceremonial Burial and Alphabet, both of which are rare techs (only two civs start with them). You have Warrior Code -- a valuable and rare tech -- and Masonry, a tech that several groups have.

We'd like to propose the following trade:
GoW: Warrior Code, Masonry, Small amount of Gold
RP: Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial
* If either team meets another group, the above deal is rendered invalid (pending re-ratification), and the other team must be notified.

The small amount of gold would be to cover the difference between Masonry and Alphabet, as Alphabet has a high re-trade value. The point is negotiable, and I'm sure we'll end up repaying you once we hire you anyway . The ending bit is just to ensure that neither team is locked in this contract if they meet someone else; from our teams perspective, if we do meet someone else before we meet you, we'd still like to have a standing deal -- we just may need to adjust the deal if we get Masonry.

Please let me know what your people think, and if the baselines above can serve as a starting point. We are very interested in trading with you, both when we meet and throughout the game.

-- adaMada

Obviously, this deal benifits them; but we do not necessarily want to give away warrior code, since of its importance of a military tech.

We might be able to get away from paying gold if we offer them an 'ensured golden age'. That is, we let their UU kill our warrior whenever they want.

I think that alphabet and ceremonial burial are crucial to have. Ceremonial burial lets us control discontentment, while alphabet is crucial for us to get to literature and the great library.

Anyway, I think (when we get it), the wheel is more crucial than warrior code, especially for our purposes. Therefore I see no problem with trading warrior code. All it really does is alows archer rushes, which will not be so effective in MP.

Feel free to discuss this in the thread. Note this is if RP and us happen to meet next, before we meet someone else.

Korn: the price seems high to me, and Roleplay is much more likely to meet ND before they meet us, but i'd like to hear what others among us think

GF: Straight up trade, and our goodwill. Read my other thread on why I think we should trade Warrior Code.

I say we tell them we contacted Neu Demo in good faith and on the condition they let no one know we told them (this will reinforce our trustibility and hopefully foster the concept that we hold them in higher regard than other civs ) and that Neu Demo has contacted another civ whom we are not sure as of yet. Offer to trade them our starting location on the mini map for their starting location on mini map (mini map doesn't show terrain and resources just where you started in the big picture so we can aim towards one another. The info we provide should be more than enough to cover the stragegic value of alphabet.

We can coordinate moving warriors to meeting somewhere in the middle.

HE: Early tech trades are going to make or break us in this game.
Sure we can build an army and take what we want eventually, but we are a long way off from getting any decent attack force. By then, we may find ourselves so far behind that we will be ineffective.
(Unless we want to build an archer rush now)

Warrior code is the most important tech out there at the moment, as we are the only Civ with it.
Don’t trade until we have contact with a few more Civs.

Halt the game, (everyone else is doing it), and do a bulk trade with all Civs at the same time.

Or even get ND to do it for us. They are expansionist and will meet everyone well before we do.
Offer to gift them warrior code if they can resell it around the world.
We approve each transaction, and they gift the techs back to us.
The benefit to them is that they get free tech from whoring our warrior code.

adaMada is trying to lock in a tech deal that guarantees he gets our tech for a very cheap price.
Remind him that there are 2 civs with his techs...which make them half as valuable as our unique tech.

Warrior code is our biggest bargaining chip...lets not be too hasty in giving it away.

Wait .. Just read GhengisFarb’s post.

He’s right .. A goodie hut will pop it for them….so disregard some of above

I suggest we ask ND to whore it for us …
Do we know if we are even on the same continent as adaMada

Sorry …typing this up at work …

P32: PM about whoring warrior code sent to Borc. Counter-proposal (straight up trade + our goodwill sent to adaMada)

GF: Did you trade mini-maps? This will give us a good idea if we are on the same continent. If we both agree to trade those techs and try to meet in the middle we can trade for tech other than the two we are trading each other until we meet.

Make sure to let them know we have info on other civs to trade them to increase their desire to agree to the trade deal.

Don:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Straight up trade, and our goodwill. Read my other thread on why I think we should trade Warrior Code.

I say we tell them we contacted Neu Demo in good faith and on the condition they let no one know we told them (this will reinforce our trustibility and hopefully foster the concept that we hold them in higher regard than other civs ) and that Neu Demo has contacted another civ whom we are not sure as of yet. Offer to trade them our starting location on the mini map for their starting location on mini map (mini map doesn't show terrain and resources just where you started in the big picture so we can aim towards one another. The info we provide should be more than enough to cover the stragegic value of alphabet.

We can coordinate moving warriors to meeting somewhere in the middle.

This looks like a very good idea. However, I think they will be very hesitant to agree to a map trade as I feel they will think an Archer Rush would be eminent. We might have to ease their worries about this by making some kind of non-aggression pact for X # of turns (maybe see if we can get something for this from both ND and RP) Hold off on the GA contract. I am sure that they aren't even thinking of a GA yet as it comes with explores much much later in the game (however, with a crappy offensive UU like they have, I am sure they will drool over the possibility)

Speaking of GA contracts, we should let them know that just because we sign a GA contract with them, it does not mean that we will not sign a contract with another civ against them. If Lego contracts us to attack RP, we still attack RP, just promice them that the Warrior unit is theirs to do with as they please. We won't attack them with it and we will move it to where ever they want us to move it. But we would still be contracted to fight. Hey, a GA contract is not a Non-aggression contract. Hmmm... this is going to take some thinking...

CHEESE!!!!! (Move along troll... move along...)

P32: chatting with adaMada now; looks like the straight 2-2 deal (without any gold) will go through. It will be official in about a day or so.

GF: What's up? We need to trade minimaps ASAP so we can send a warrior in their direction.

P32: AARG!! Replys are slow in Foreign Affairs...

See! GS isn't the only one! Hmmm... in hindsight, this was probably a stall...

P32: notes from chat with Admiral PJ (LI)

-They have Iron Working
-They seem to have a use for mercenaries.
-They want trade minimaps and meet by GoW's lands
-They will destroy our troops if we violate their territory.
-They do sound relativly suspicious.
-They think they know that we have traded with ND

I proposed the trade minimaps to them. They will get back to me at 12AM tommorrow night GMT. Terms are that we meet at a place exactly in the middle. They also want to know with whom we have traded; they may tell us with whom they have traded.

I think this is were things started to go sour...

HE: I hope we are on the same continent, because these guys are TOAST !!!

AS ND has warrior code, it has lost its value.
We should just get what we can for it now...plot and kill them later.

Yep.

Don: Go ahead and tell them who we've contacted.

Them tell them all the great trades we got from ND! If they don't believe us, tell them to go ask ND about the trades we made with them.

Aro:

Originally posted by Hot_Enamel
I hope we are on the same continent, because these guys are TOAST !!!

That's the spirit!
Btw, trade the nini-maps with these guys.

P32: Vox Controlli declined minimap trading. Haven't heard anything official from the other teams yet.

Aro: Two options:
1st They fear us (likely )
2nd they are hiding something.

P32: hmmm, it seems Unorthodox told Gathering Storm something I didn't know about trading minimaps :

(from Zeit)

I greet you for your initiative of trade between our two nations.
As you probably realize, this offer must be seriously considered, as it involves very sensitive information exchange. I shall do whatever in my power to make sure the respected members of my team review and discuss this offer.

However, one must ponder, what caused your late change of heart?
I say this because not long ago your consul UnOrthOdOx has informed me that your team has decide to refrain from this sort of trade.

well, I don't know... I didn't think we had any official policy before...

Well, they will consider the deal, and I sent a reply saying I was not aware of this previous statement, and therefore we are not 'changing our minds'.

Aro: Well done. But we have to ask Ghengis about this, I'm curious now...

GF: UnOrthO had received a proposal for a trade of WHOLE maps and territory not mini-maps. The consensus was we didn't want the other teams to see the resources around our capital city.

Don: And this is why we decided to do a mini-map trade. They won't be able to see our resourses.

P32: Just an update: I have gotten a reply from every one of the teams, but few actual descisions. Vox Controlli is a definite no. That is all we know. Others are saying they're just thinking about it and will get back to me as soon as possible. That is all.

Aggie: Under no circumstances should we release our actual map.
Aggie

Aggie!!!!

GF: Agreed, the mini-map trade allows us to get an idea where the other teams are at on the map and send expeditions in that area which is what we are most interested in.

P32: Roleplay deal going through:
-We give WC and Masonry
-They give Ceremonial and Alphabet
-We trade minimaps
-50 Turn nonagression pact (deciding on whether it will be from the time now or the time we meet)

Comment on this NOW!!! The deal will go through VERY SOON!!!

P32: More:
-No trading the maps to 3rd parties


I WILL send the minimap to them in about 3 hours, if nobody complains. If someone does, I will rethink the thing.

Otto: Sounds good to me, I figure we'll be fighting Demogyptians and Luxians before we get around to messing with Roleplay.

HE: Do the deal.

We need a good trading partner.
Even if it means we have to trade through them to the other civs.

Several post about how P32 forgot our password and couldn't get a copy of our mini-map.

P32: Thanks GF; I had gotten it already though.

Mail sent to adaMada containing our minimap; they had better send theirs back or

by the way, I might be absent from tommorrow afternoon for 24 hours or so.

P32: I got the minimaps!! I superimposed them on to each other and we are close to them. They are SE of us. I don't have a way to put the image on the net, so could I send the file to you, GF, and could you post it here?

I can't find the pictures. Sorry...

[UnOrthOdOx]

The GoW Constitution....

Citizens

A. Emperor

1. Plays the game.
2. Must appoint Consuls (described in Article I-B).
   a. Consul of Foreign Affairs. Required.
   b. Consul of War. Required.
   c. Consul of Internal Affairs. Required.
   d. Others as needed.
   e. Orders of all Consuls within the boundaries of their offices must be followed by the Emperor.
3. Appoints Kings and Lords as Governors of cities.
   a. Each Lord who wants a city must be granted one before Kings, who already have a city, are granted another.
   b. Must prioritize the requests of Lords over Kings.
4. Acts as King for all cities not assigned to someone else and the Capitol.
   - Exception in case of Article I-A8.
5. Controls all settlers.
6. Production and Queues Powers.
   a. May override Production and Queues during turnchats (if they ever happen).
   - Must inform populous of what he did and why he did it.
   b. May ask for changes during PBEM style of play.
   - May call for a no-con vote if the King refuses.

B. Consuls

1. Either a King or a Lord.
   - A person can hold only one position of Consul at a time, unless there is not enough active people to fill all Consul positions.
   - The Emperor cannot hold a Consul position.
2. Appointment to any position of Consul must be approved by the Senate.
3. Orders of all Consuls within the boundaries of their office must be followed by the Emperor.
4. If the people do not agree with a Consul's decisions, a no-con vote may be called
5. Consul of Foreign Affairs.
   a. May propose trade deals with foreign Human Civs.
   - Has the last word on whether a deal is decided on or not.
6. Consul of War.
   a. Has control of all units besides settlers and workers.
   b. May request governors to change/add military builds.
7. Consul of Internal Affairs.
   a. Controls all workers and slaves.
   b. Has power over the slider
   c. Controls the Treasury
8. Other Consuls may be appointed as the Emperor needs them.
9. No Consul may order the Emperor to go to war.
10. Any additional Consul appointed by an Emperor is removed from the position and not replaced when the appointing Emperor is removed from power.

C. Kings

1. Lords who have been given a city/cities.
   - All Subsequent cities given to a King must have a common border.
2. Names their city (and geographical areas in city radius) with 50% approval from the Senate.
3. Controls workforce of their city.
4. Controls build and queue of their city, with input from Consuls.
5. Vote in the House of Lords.
6. It is the King's responsibility to name the units their city produces.

D. Lords

1. Members of our team.
2. Vote in the House of Lords.

Government

A. House of Lords

1. Composed of all Kings and Lords.
2. One vote for each member.
3. Vote on important issues and no-confidence votes.

B. Vote of No-Confidence

1. A vote of no-confidence can be called against the Emperor or a Consul
2. The Vote of No-confidence must be a poll with the first post saying and only saying "I propose a vote of no confidence on _ to be replaced with _.
3. In the case of more than one proposed replacement, the end of the sentence will be "... no confidence on _ to be replaced with _ or _".
4. The Senate votes in a no-con vote.
5. A no-con vote poll must be open for at least 48 hours.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
The source of all the GoW Dtrategy jokes:

Started by GF: 3-20-03 thread topic: War Council: Dtrategy and Tactics

GF:

UnO:
GF:
MZ:
various reactionary posts:
Don:

And GoW henceforth went on with Dtrategy. [/QUOTE]

hey, Uno... check your source. MZ didn't join till after the Bobian War...

[UnOrthOdOx]

I did check, that was him. :shrug:

[DeepO]

Is this the analysis you guys based everything on? 28 immortals, over 11 turns? In 11 turns Vox was nearly gone, and we built something like 50 units or so. And it wasn't even hard to do. If they would have had 28 immortals right next to Grog, they would have had a big chance, but this is not the way you fight wars in MP... you have to stack, prepare everything beforehand, and time it so one big wave hits an opponent. If you start by dividing your forces, they will never have a chance of striking decisively.

If I find the time, I'll check for some of our threads. We figured Vox had 20 immortals ready right then, possibly even 25. Ourselves, we had 10 warriors or so, and one veteran spear. 4 turns later, our army had more than doubled, all vet units. It wasn't hard to win against immortals, it was hard to lose.

BTW, Vox had one very good decision in this war: they built warriors on Estonia, upgrading them in D-ville (the road between the iron source and their other cities was cut). An excellent tactic to keep producing both warriors and immortals. Only, if your advisary spots this, you're supposed to protect your weak supply lines which they failed to do... half of the setup was perfect, the other a huge mistake. But no need to bring that up again, they paid enough for that flaw.

Actually, come to think about it, Civ really is a game where a small mistake in a wrong situation can be fatal. And as you can't prevent those mistakes from being made, the whole game centers around avoiding those situations the best you can. Dividing defenders along your weak spots, taking certain losses when you otherwise have a chance of losing all, things like that.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, and we perhaps talked about our strength, but I think you had too much Beta propaganda there. Our force was well below theirs, but well above yours atm... and because we switched everything to military production (and had the most cities by far), we caught up very soon.

I distinctly remember a chat with Lego at the time, when we were talking about a tech deal in the first turn after the invasion, and I was like "ohw, Vox has invaded but no biggy. We'll lose a bit of units, we'll maybe lose 3 cities (the worst case scenario we drew), but after that we're ready to deal with you again." They were totally surprised why we weren't begging for more gold to help, I was totally surprised we were seen as the underdog given the situation and our units.

DeepO

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by DeepO
I was totally surprised we were seen as the underdog given the situation and our units.

Overestimation of the power of Immortals perhaps. Great on offense, but on defense they die just as easily as a sword or spear.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yes, you schooled allot of us on home defense in that little invasion.



You have my gratitude in showing us how it's done.

[Donegeal]

Started on Jan 4, 2003 by HE: Spies

HE: Just a quick post ....

I was lurking in the chat room..(I had the GOW sig on me)..and snapped this message from Togas to Trip.

I think it should of been a private one.

I have no idea what deal he was talking about...

Oops .. no attachments allowed right !!

I will email it ...

Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal

GF: I just got a nasty email from Togas:

What the hell?! Don't you guys have any patience?
You'd rather make a deal with ND than with us?

We just wasted 5+ turns of TWO of our scouts to try to urgently contact you guys, and we told Lux that we had aquired Warrior Code from you, so we didn't need it from them. Hell, we TURNED DOWN other nations to trade with you guys only to discover that your people don't have the same respect for agreements with us as you just got Bronze working and are now trying to tell adaMada that the deal has to be changed!

And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on", leading us on, so all the while we held to the deal and didn't buy either tech from anyone else because we agreed we would buy it from you.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

--Togas

I have no idea what he is talking about as we all knew the Alphabet deal was horrible from ND considering we were getting it for free in 1 turn from RP. We ahven't traded anything with ND so he's apparently spreading lies.

HE: Or he has been lied to by some other team.

Perhaps ND or Lux have told them something ?

I think it best to try and figure out exactly what the problem is.
This could still work to our advantage...
1. Find out what the hell he is talking about
2. Clarify to him our position
3. Find out who is spreading lies

This will allow Togas to direct his displeasure at the right team.

I am not too sure it is Togas spreading lies, but rather he has been lied to (or incorectly assumed something). Find out who ...then kill them.

P32: great...

I was the one who sent adaMada a PM saying the trade deal would have to be renegotiated since it was out of date, but I'm not sure about the other stuff, like "And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on"," - It was in the original agreement that if we met or traded with another team before we met roleplay, the deal would be renegotiated. Also, we can still give them warrior code... I don't see what the big problem is.

Nevertheless, I will make an official reply and send it to Togas and adaMada, and probably post it here.

GF: Latest on the Roleplay situation:

Ghengis,

You need to talk to your people to see what they're telling us before
you go off
the handle. I wrote you after Panzer sent a message to adaMada stating
that you
just received one of the techs we were going to trade you, Bronze
Working, and
that the deal would have to be redone.

He informed us that "It seems like our warriors are very close together
now, but
our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new
meeting
deal together with you."

adaMada posted his message to my forum and asked me what we should do
now.

As you should know, we had planned to give your team Alphabet AND
Bronze Working
for Wheel and Warrior Code. However, since your team aquired Bronze
working, the
deal would, in his words, have to be redone.

We turned down a deal with Lux for the same techs we had agreed to
trade to you.
We have a contact with them and could have made such a deal at any time
this
week, but chose not to. You can understand why this would upset me.
You can
understand why I immediately wrote to you.

I recontacted Lux this evening to see if they would reconsider their
offer to us.
Trip informed me that they will. However, I made it perfectly clear
to him that
I would only take their offer IF things could not be worked out with
your team.

Therefore, you have a decision to make. Make ammends for this mistake
... I'm
sure it wasn't intentional. I'm sure it's one of those situations
where one hand
isn't watching the other. Get us back to the bargaining table and make
a promise
that your team can keep. Or, tell us to f*ck off and we'll go trade
Warrior Code
and Wheel for Alphabet to Lux Invicta.

Either way we get the techs we need. However, only you or Lux gets
Alphabet from
us. I don't care either way, but I made a deal with your team and when
I make a
promise I keep it. YOUR team has priority here and I had ordered that
we trade
with your people first and formost, but I will change those plans if
your team
would rather take a more opportunistic approach to trade deals.

Lastly, explain to me how your team operates. Who's in charge and how
are these
decisions made? If you make a deal with me, how do I know that your
team will
follow through with it? If Panzer makes a deal, how do we know that
it's
official or not? In the future, how will we know who speaks for your
team and
who's word we can rely on if a simple incident like this can occur?

Post this message to your people so they can fully understand my
position.

--Togas

My Response:

Off the handle? If you had stated that Panzer32 had made that comment and asked why it had been altered I would have looked into it and corrected the situation.

Instead your team immediately begins denouning us in the chat room and forums as liars and backstabbers doing irrepairable harm to our postion in the game.

That is completely unacceptable. I had been pushing to give your team "favored status" and encouraging my team that Roleplay was a strong ally candidate whom we should forge strong trade and tech deals with. In less than 24 hours you and your team have undermined all of that work and undermined my credibility within my own team. I have no idea if I can convince my team to ebrace that attitude again.

We had never decided to renogiate any deal and we got Bronzeworking from Lux for FREE as part of a friendship offer to encourage us to be more supportive of their postion and not ND's. We were to consider it as a bonus and were still going to trade you both techs in our agreement for Alphabet to honor our deal.

I would far prefer that questions about "backstabbings" be brought to my attention before being publicly thrown around as propaganda.

All I know is 24 hours ago we were in a strong tech postion and had lined up a tech share agreements with Roleplay and Lux to generate 3 techs for every 1 we researched and now we are almost back to square one and on the verge of being at the receiving end of a tech embargo.

P32: I am sending a PM also, there GF... I am mostly done writing it when I saw yours.

P32: Here is my reply:

___________

Greeting Togas, ruler of the Roleplay team. What I have to reply to is this email you sent to Ghengis Farb. I am sending this to adaMada as well.

What the hell?! Don't you guys have any patience?
You'd rather make a deal with ND than with us?

We just wasted 5+ turns of TWO of our scouts to try to urgently contact you guys, and we told Lux that we had aquired Warrior Code from you, so we didn't need it from them. Hell, we TURNED DOWN other nations to trade with you guys only to discover that your people don't have the same respect for agreements with us as you just got Bronze working and are now trying to tell adaMada that the deal has to be changed!

And all this time you've been sending us emails confirming that the "deal was still on", leading us on, so all the while we held to the deal and didn't buy either tech from anyone else because we agreed we would buy it from you.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

This is a very dishonorable way for a team to act, especially when you expect us to trust that you'll stick to your agrements. In the future, we will think twice before relying on the frail promises of your wishy-washy team.

--Togas

Well, for one, you seem determined that we cheated you by trading Lux Invicta. We traded The Wheel and Warrior Code for Bronzeworking and Pottery. Now, our team can still give you the Wheel and Warrior code, and you can still give us alphabet. Therefore, I propose we do exactly the same trade that we had agreed upon earlier - You give us Alphabet, we give you the Wheel and Warrior Code, and we have a 50 turn nonagression pact. Think of this advantageous deal as compensation for not trading with other teams while coming to meet us. I believe our warriors are extremely close to meeting, so we will hopefully have this cleared up very soon.

This brings up another point: In the original agreement, there was a 'clause' stating that we would renegotiate the deal if we met and/or traded with another team. I fail to see which part of this the Glory of War actually broke. Do not mistake the above deal I am giving you as an apology from the Glory of War team, it is simply a sort of compensation for misunderstanding our contract.

I also understand that you said in the public chat room: "Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal" What did you say this for? Are you trying to spread lies about us? The Glory of War has done every deal with Lux Invicta it said it would do, the aforementioned tech trade is a public example. Please research your facts before you spread rumours about others.

Are you also afraid we have traded 'behind your backs' with New Demogyptica? The only time we have done this was a while back, before the latest tech trade was agreed upon.

Thank you; I hope that we can clear up some of the misunderstanding between our two teams

Panzer32, Foreign Consul for the Glory of War.

GF: Panzer32, could you post the email you sent to adaMada where Togas and Roleplay "claim" you broke our trade deal.

I would like to look at the exact wording to see how they came to their conclusions.

P32: Here is the one (I think):

____________
Sent 3rd January 2003 03:14 pm EST

It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore

The GoW has these techs:
-masonry
-Pottery
-wheel
-warrior code
-bronze working
-ceremonial burial

what does roleplay have?

P32: I sent an apology for this PM stating:
_____________

I looked over the situation, and think I understand some of what the problem is. Yesterday, I sent this PM to you:

It seems like our warriors are very close together now, but our previous tech deal is obselete; therefore I would like to get a new meeting deal together with you. It might be good to tell each other what we have, so we can see what can be traded - therefore... and so on

Now I can understand your point of view and thus your reaction to this PM. I realise now that obselete was a strong word, and should not have used it, since the deal was not really obselete. The Glory of War only obtained one technology that was included in the deal. It sounded like we were cancelling the whole deal, including the nonagression deal. I was simply saying that we needed to adjust the deal again so it fit into both of our team's situations. Therefore I apologise for the severe wording of that PM.

P32: Response from adaMada (from my long PM up there a bit)

_________________

RE: Can we clear this up?
Dear Panzer,
I'm sorry to say that I can't reply to this now, as I've got to go out, but considering the sensativity of this topic, I wanted to let you know that I will reply once I get back, and that I'm not ignoring you . I should be back in a few hours, and will have a reply for you and your team then.

-- adaMada

Thread too big. Continued in next post.

[Donegeal]

P32: More stuff

PM from Togas replying to big PM (same as adaMada)
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Re: Lets get this thing cleared up
Panzer,

I think this matter can be put to rest. If your team will trade us Warrior Code and Wheel for Alphabet, then we have no problems at all. I regret that there has been such confusion over this issue.

I got enraged when my ambassador posted to our forum that you aquired Bronze Working from another source and said that the deal would have to be renegotiated, which meant that the deal was basically off. The reason I was angry about this is because I had taken active measures to send people to meet your team ASAP, foregoing their original scouting mission to travel directly to you. I had also had many exchanges with Ghengis Farb where he asked me on several occasions if the deal was on, and even sent us a .jpg showing where your warrior was so that we could both meet.

I was only angry because we had done so much thus far to make this deal and it didn't seem to me that it was as important to you guys as it was to us

Furthermore, Trip had offered us Wheel & Warrior Code in conjunction with several other trades, but we turned him down on Wednesday saying we already had a deal with you guys. Then I had to go back to Trip on Friday, after receiving your PM, to see if he would reoffer the deal to us.

I also understand that you said in the public chat room: "Togas to Trip -> We may have a better deal for you - GOW is trying to change their deal" What did you say this for? Are you trying to spread lies about us? The Glory of War has done every deal with Lux Invicta it said it would do, the aforementioned tech trade is a public example. Please research your facts before you spread rumours about others.

I said this, as this is what was communicated to me by your PM. You told adaMada that our previous deal was obsolite and that you'd like to make a new deal. Did you not say this?

Regardless, I understand that if you received Bronze Working as a gift, you could not refuse it. If I had been made aware of that situation earlier, I would not have been so frustrated by this turn of events. Furthermore, if I had been made aware by your first PM that you were willing to offer Wheel and Warrior Code for Alphabet, I certainly would not have protested. Such a deal is acceptable to me and my people.

I apologize that this misunderstanding inflamed both your people and mine, and I hope that in the future we can keep each other more informed so that misunderstandings like these will not happen again.

--Togas
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And My reply to this:
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RE: Re: Lets get this thing cleared up

I thank you for your reply, and am glad that this could be cleared up quickly. I'm sorry my wording was sort of off in my PM: "You told adaMada that our previous deal was obsolite and that you'd like to make a new deal. Did you not say this?" Yes I did say this, and I realise that obselete was sort of the wrong word. I was thinking that either most of the deal could be left intact, and you give us something other than bronze working, or we could go ahead and do the deal as we had originally planned, only without you giving us Bronze working. It now appears that this is what we will settle on. Also, I now understand why you said what you said to Trip in the chat room (BTW - you might want to be more careful about using the public chat room to communicate: one of the GoW members was there).

So there you go then; let us continue to be friends and it will go well with us in the future.

BTW: let both of our teams record the date we meet, so we can calculate which 50 turns the nonagression pact will last, so that we know which turn to start renegotiations.


Thank You;

Panzer32, Foreign Consul for the Glory of War PTW democracy game team.

GF: quote:

Originally posted by Panzer32
BTW: let both of our teams record the date we meet, so we can calculate which 50 turns the nonagression pact will last, so that we know which turn to start renegotiations.

2850 BC

HE: Phew....Glad this was sorted out

I say at a minimum, do the deal with them.
Our 2 techs for their 1 tech.

P32: Yes, please do the tech deal GF.

now for calculating 50 turns from 2850BC...

Real: Who's being treacherous?
GF seems to think its Roleplay - Barring any further info you can ignore the rest of this post.


Someone is lying -

According to Trip, ND breaks agreements.
ND did not attack us.
Eigther ND or Trip is dishonest. Maybe later we trade Trip Territory(ie honest) Maps to find out.

Togas says we've been dishonest - is he trying to bully us into making a better agreement or is someone else lying about us?

Anybody know enough about these jokers to know who's full of it?

GF: Roleplay is definitely trying to manipulate us. But I do think they will make a good partner as long as we realize they are competition and not a full ally.

Lux Invicta is trying to manipulate everyone, especially Roleplay.

ND is somewhat of an enigma, not really getting involved with anyone but definitely trying to cozy up to Roleplay.

Don: So, is our trade back on? Did we get Alphabet from RP?

P32: when we meet we will

HE:

Roleplay is definitely trying to manipulate us. But I do think they will make a good partner as long as we realize they are competition and not a full ally.

Lux Invicta is trying to manipulate everyone, especially Roleplay.

ND is somewhat of an enigma, not really getting involved with anyone but definitely trying to cozy up to Roleplay.

We should definitely feed Roleplays ego.

Tell them we have the feeling that they are becoming the dominent civ on the continent, and that we want to align ourselves with them.
Was it not Togas who said that he felt there will be an early war soon in one of his posts ?
Tell him we agree and would like to have an alliance with them against one of the others.
Word it so that we don’t seem the aggressor, but simply want to follow them into battle.
This way, if word is leaked out, or we get some bad rolls and our offensive is destroyed, …we can say it was all Roleplays idea…lets kill them

We can suggest it to be ND, because they sit between us….but let them choose.
Let them bring Lux to the party.

GF:

Originally posted by donegeal
So, is our trade back on? Did we get Alphabet from RP?

They gave us Alphabet and 5 gold.

It appears that Roleplay and Lux are signing an alliance and mutual defense agreement of sorts.

HE: So we need to decide.

Option 1
Align with ND
2 vs 2
With a war timetable using knights (Riders & Ansars)
I like this idea, but can we trust ND...What if RP offers them an aliance and we end up being attacked by all three ?

Option 2
Align with Roleplay & Lux
3 vs 1
But if Lux & RP are in bed together already, they may then turn on us in a 2 vs 1


BTW, Lux needs to be taken out before they get Sipahi.
But that is way in the future...

GF: My devious plot is to align with Lux and Roleplay to utilize the tech leveraging to rapidly get us to Chivalry (this tech alliance makes the Great Library useless, we will get techs and surpass Education long before we would have built the Great Library). We then use our Riders to take out ND because we will have advanced faster and thus they never survive to see theirs.

By then we will hopefully have cultivated distrust between Roleplay and Lux and take out Lux before they get their UU.

Roleplay's UU is the Conquistidor and not as life threatening as the other two.

Really, the key Wonder is pretty much the Pyramids in the Ancient Age.

HE: Agreed

Good to know that we have a plan....A devious plan is even better.

So long as we dont end up being on the worse end of a 3 vs 1 aliance, then it sounds like you have things in order.

Priority has to be getting onto the RP/Lux bandwagon.

Then we need to break their alliance and go after Lux.
Even with weak Conquistidors and Lux not having their UU....it will be tough to take both of them on at the same time.
Perhaps some help from the other continent ?
This is way in the future though...
It is impossible to plan that far ahead.

My only suggestion...feed their ego.

Aro: Yep, but do it carefully. They have some smart guys there...

HE: Agreed.

I have complete faith in GhengisFarbs ability to grovel at the feet of Togas in the appropriate way.

Several posts about GF kissing Togas's feet (or the like... )

Aggie: I have an idea. We let their "alliance come to completion and then right as they are about to attack us lets get one to betray the other. For example we convinve ND to betray roleplay. Right as the roleplay army is on our borders ready for war we get nd to launch a sneak attack on them since their army is far away and unable to defend their homeland. We are forewarned so can destro there force near us. Lets face it, somebody is most vulnerable when they have just spent all their energy making an army and have moved it. The question is "how do we get one of the "evil three" to betray the others. Never again would those three trust the others.
Aggie

HE: This will require ND to break an agreement.
I feel not many teams will be willing to do this.

Unless we also get down and dirty.

Tell them we have proof that Lux and RP are intending to take them out immediately after dealing with us.

We could always fabricate some electronic proof.
We log onto a chat session with their member names and cook up some nasty backstabbing evil.
Take a snap shot of the chat and give it to ND.
Tell them we have a spy in one of their teams.

Ooooh ...I feel distgusting even thinking about it....
Is this even allowed within the agreed Demo rules ?

Oh well ... alls fair in love and war, and we may be talking about our very survival. RL govts do it all the time.

GF:

Originally posted by Aggie
I have an idea. We let their "alliance come to completion and then right as they are about to attack us lets get one to betray the other. For example we convinve ND to betray roleplay. Right as the roleplay army is on our borders ready for war we get nd to launch a sneak attack on them since their army is far away and unable to defend their homeland. We are forewarned so can destro there force near us. Lets face it, somebody is most vulnerable when they have just spent all their energy making an army and have moved it. The question is "how do we get one of the "evil three" to betray the others. Never again would those three trust the others.
Aggie

I like, especially possible considering my info tends to come from members of their teams that do not like them going in this direction at all.

I doubt we could get enough support to destroy the civs, but they might give us enough info to dishearten the warmongers amongst their ranks...

Wow... things got interesting VERY quickly...

[Donegeal]

Started by GF on Dec 17, 2002: Number One Threat: Neu Demogyptia.

GF: They had already discovered The Wheel before us and are between us and Roleplay. They have already contacted a fourth civ and are in the postion of trading techs between us and the other two civs which only have contact with Neu Demo.

I think we should build the first camp and then the second camp should be the one south of Imperial City.

Imperial City should start on the Pyramids as soon as the settler is finished.

We could cut the forest with the game and mine it giving us a 3/1/2 tile to allow one of the camps faster growth for workers and settlers. With the Pyramids and those 3 city sites on hills with rivers those cities should grow to size 12 fairly quickly, once size 7 they have free walls with the city defensive bonus on top of the hill terrain bonus.

I think we could use a Worker to build a colony on the the Horse to the west of Imperial City.

Any suggestions/comments.

Don: So we have a new question. Do we still build a fort first (work/settler factory) or do we settle our second castle?

Two things come to mind about this. One: that source of Gems. Get that and we would start with two Lux in our borders to start. Boom. Happy people for quite some time. Two: Move toward ND. But I think going for the city site down by the spices is a little too aggressive. My vote would be for the middle site then for the Gem site. Go for the middle site and plant Basher in the middle of the coast and the cultural border of the city. If we see ND (or anyone for that matter) we tell them that that land is claimed by us and to attempt to settle there would constutue a declaration of war. It ours. Tell them so.

P32: Your strategy sounds like a good one.

I have suggested a tech trade of Masonry for Ceremonial between our two teams, but I have not yet recieved a response.

Otto: I've gotten word that Roleplay has contacted the Demogypticans. Apparently they just had a big chat to discuss trades ectera. My friend told me they ran into a ND scout but wouldn't tell me what kind of trade they agreed/didn't agree to.

They did trade minimaps and he said that Lux was visible to the east of the Demogypticans on the Demo minimap.

He also said there is some discussion in their forum about a potential tech embargo against the Demogypticans.

GF: Perhaps our warior on the Demogyptian border needs to go East then south.

Real: I think any early wonders are a waste of time. There are 6 other civs that might get it, and even if we did, it costs as much as 7 granaries. In that time we could have settled all over, or built 20 archers or 13 swordsmen or horsemen, and even if we do get it we'll have nothing to show for it until it's completely built, be more vunlerable for a while because of spending those shields, and the others will be aware of our temporary vulnerabilty/future threat and choose to attack us then.


We need to get at least one ally for a future war, attack while they're building wonders or soon after. What good is it to get The Pyramids just to lose half your cities?

The Wonders present us & our ally a golden opportunity to attack.

GF: I'm seriously considering having Imperial City build a second settler and with the first one from Camp Cod quckly founding the remaining two camps.

If the three civs do ally against us, this will give us enormous unit production power and a highly defensible core with them all being on hills.

Any city site stolen by Lux or New Demo can be taken and razed by our Horsemen.

I see sprinkling in a few Workers into the build queus and perhaps planting a colony on the Horse resource.

P32: Yes, I would say another Imperial City settler would be beneficial.

HE: Wow.. was thinking the same thing on the way to work this morning.

We need to prepare for this war, and perhaps even strike out early if it looks like their pact has been locked in.
Perhaps a 2 horseman sortie for each civ to raze undefended cities, kill workers, and pillage.

More cities and more units are required.

See? We weren't particularly friendly with ND to start.

[Master Zen]

you know, for the record, I wouldn't mind opening our private forum at this very instant... we did vote in favor of such a thing.

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Master Zen
you know, for the record, I wouldn't mind opening our private forum at this very instant... we did vote in favor of such a thing.

Not quite yet ... game is still on

Even though I was the lone voice to vote not to open our forum, anyone who wants a peek, can just apply for membership. I cant remeber who approves ?

[Master Zen]

Sadly, it is not me, it is Panzer. I think DanQ got the whole power transfer wrong since I do have mod powers inside the forum, just that I can't authorize anyone.

And btw, I joined before the Voxian war, not after the Bobian war

(I was the friggin CoFA during the whole Bob prelude, hence the reason I was and still am #1 on RP's most-despised list)