ah ok good to know, ill be a little more carefull in changing my SE settings, and knowing the -1 Talent, Private/protect suddenly seems less overpowered. gj.
Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.
-Henrik Tikkanen
An otherwise normal SMAniaC game featuring AIs boosted by satellites.
Due to all those satellites the AIs will probably have a larger population than you in the start, but you should be able to get even again after popbooming, making the AI an interesting opponent for longer.
Edit: Oh yeah, the AI Probe is AI Only.
Last edited by Maniac; October 7, 2005 at 20:29.
Nuclear Missiles: AI only or am I allowed to use them too? And why do they come so early in the game?
Basically I just found it kind of silly that humans had apparently 'forgotten' how to produce nuclear weapons, especially considering they have fission reactors.
Note they aren't planet busters. Just conventional missiles with nerve gas. If you want, you can use them too if you're prepared to face the usual commerce sanctions.
Sometimes factions such as the Hive, Pirates, Cult or Spartans really like building nukes and actively use them. Fortunately AAA and flechette defenses are available earlier as well, so if you make the research effort it's definitely possible to defend against them.
I'd appreciate feedback though. This unit I'm kinda unsure of, and of some people find it unbalancing, it's of course best removed.
The high attack value and relatively low cost and the fact it can be used non-X does make it pretty overpowered. Especially with self-destruct. Sven is being a right pest with them, using them non-X. Will be ages before I can defend against them and i can't really just leave my coastal bases undefended.
Oh I love all the randomized faction leader personalities. Brother Lal, true to his character, believes strongly in the virtues of Police State.
The AI probes are cool too. I've resisted the urge to use or reverse engineer them.
The cost is already artificially increased from 3 to 4 min rows. It could of course be further increased.Originally posted by Blake
The high attack value and relatively low cost and the fact it can be used non-X does make it pretty overpowered.
For the record, I think I'll probably increase the cost of a conventional missile to 3 (crawler cost) instead of 2 rows.
What units does Ulrik destroy btw? If it are units that cost as much as or more than the cost of the missile, I agree they are overpowered. If he just destroys some formers or scout patrols, I don't see the problem. Then it works as intended - unless you take precautions the AI can actually do some harm in a war, as opposed to the standard game where losing a single unit in a war is already a rare occasion.
Woops.Oh I love all the randomized faction leader personalities. Brother Lal, true to his character, believes strongly in the virtues of Police StateApparently SMAX still takes its diplomatic text from Script.txt instead of xscript.txt. Download the attached file for the correct Federal Democracy quote! The SMAniaC download in my sig has also been updated.
(Or are you perhaps playing this scenario without the SMAniaC mod? - that would also explain a lot.)
hmmm
Well, some feedback...
Busy playing a game in this mod as the DA's, and I'm glad I've choosen that faction! Personally, I don't see much of a benefit for the AI in his new probes. All a player needs to do is keep a probe in his base, and a hostile one will likely kill itself in an attempt to get at it. Even if it wins, the normal base defender can get it afterwards.
Stepped into the "Talents not visible in SE-screen" trap as well. Too bad it won't show there, really can be a nuisance for the unsuspecting.
The nuclear missiles, overpowered or not, are a nice addition in the early-to-middle game.
I like the tech-tree sofar. It's a bit hard to get used to (easy to feel lost) but it sure gives a multitude of ways of going somewhere. It also gives the AI more of an early advantage of getting a Project.
Some of the re-naming or placing isn't too good, but that's a matter of choice I suppose.
Regarding SE choices, the only really weird combo I could find is running Green and Anthropocentric at the same time. Respecting the ecosphere while simultaneously doing all what is needed to ensure survival?O yes, love the way you forced a player to have disadvantages while popbooming.
The AI Probe was not really meant to make the AI better at offensive probing - that's a goal doomed for failure. I'm just hoping that once in a while when you sent out a probe to an AI faction, you will face an AI probe in their base and will have to return empty-handed or come back with reinforcements.Originally posted by GeoModder
Busy playing a game in this mod as the DA's, and I'm glad I've choosen that faction! Personally, I don't see much of a benefit for the AI in his new probes. All a player needs to do is keep a probe in his base, and a hostile one will likely kill itself in an attempt to get at it. Even if it wins, the normal base defender can get it afterwards.
If you feel the need to keep probe defences in your bases, that's already a slight improvement though IMO.
The nuclear missiles, overpowered or not, are a nice addition in the early-to-middle game.Great!
Green and Anthropocentric are both "societies", so they can't be run at the same time. Perhaps you mean an anthropocentric society with as ruling elite empaths? I guess you could explain that as follows: having an empath elite means people with psi abilities have political control over the faction. These empaths don't necessarily use their psi talents though to reach harmony with Planet. In any case, in the new SE system I've more or less tried to keep the variation that existed in the old SE system. Eg there are two SE choices that give positive Planet, and it is possible to choose a SE choice that reduces the impact of the -3 Planet SE choice.Regarding SE choices, the only really weird combo I could find is running Green and Anthropocentric at the same time. Respecting the ecosphere while simultaneously doing all what is needed to ensure survival?
Personally I consider Planned-Plutocrat the most weird combination.Though I guess you could imagine Plutocrat ruling elite stands for Bureaucrat ruling elite under a planned economy.
***
A small update:
- alphax.txt: some weapon and armour costs fixed, and missile cost increased
- helpx.txt: some spelling errors fixed
- pirate.txt: they now want to achieve high EFFIC instead of SUPPORT. As the Pirates like ro run Planned, the -3 efficiency is really killing their energy production. Some limited testing didn't seem to show much difference though in the Pirate SE preference with or without the change.
But I guess every little bit helps...
Full mod download in signature also updated.
Yes, I meant Empath and Anthropocentric.
Personal fulfillment by destroying the ecosphere somewhat...
And hey, the Troika was a fine example of elitarian people running a planned economy.
Just played your mod in SP for a while...
By and large, I'm impressed. A lot of changes look and feel nice, esp. the tech tree. I like also the way you approached SE settings, esp. the choice "either economy or industry". OTOH, I must say I don't quite get the Politics piece of SE. I'm not exactly sure what you had in mind. Why, for example, I can have only -2 or +2 POLICE?
Anyway, these are just first notes. All in all, very good job and it's great we can test it in MP. More feedback later on, as the game develops.
PS, I've noticed that in your mod, MWs and IoDs sometimes do not attack a nearby unit. Likewise, IoDs and Sealurks can appear out of nowhere, even with no fungus around. Strange...
PS II. What about AI Probes? Does it use them?
PS.III I've just recalled - one of the techs allows formers to "construct mine field". What the heck is that?
Thanks for your comments Kirov.
By the Ascetic Guild, factional boni and penalties, brood pits & cybernetic societies it's still possible to have the whole range of the POLICE SE factor.Originally posted by Kirov
OTOH, I must say I don't quite get the Politics piece of SE. I'm not exactly sure what you had in mind. Why, for example, I can have only -2 or +2 POLICE?
But basically I just thought that a Police penalty fitted better with a democracy than with a free market. No nerve stapling, no military running over the streets in a democracy...
There are some nice consequences of this change though as far as I can see. In the standard game the combination PS-FM is not very good. A change from -5 Police to -3 Police is not very significant, especially since there are a couple tricks to circumvent pacifism drones anyway. In SMAniaC the PS-Private economy combo gives +2 Police, so it's more attractive IMO. Increased strategic variety possible in other words.
Re democracies themselves, they have +1 Talent besides -2 Police. So these effects cancel each other until you reach the second bureaucracy limit, and it isn't that much different than in the standard game (except for not having to build garrisons for all your bases).
But why not scrap both +1 Talent & -2 Police if it evens each other out? Besides the minor effect of not being able to nerve staple under a democracy, the +1 Talent can be useful to achieve golden age popbooming. Good for factions such as the Consciousness, Pirates and Morganites who are often screwed if they can't get the Human Genome Project in the standard game. Now they have another way to get that extra talent, which I think strengthens especially the Consciousness and Pirates who are considered weak in the standard game.
Hmmm, I haven't noticed that myself. I'll try to watch out for it.PS, I've noticed that in your mod, MWs and IoDs sometimes do not attack a nearby unit. Likewise, IoDs and Sealurks can appear out of nowhere, even with no fungus around. Strange...
If the AI faction strategy is set to build lots of probes (which I did in all my test games - hopefully Darsnan has done it too), it definitely does!PS II. What about AI Probes? Does it use them?
Oh just bunkers in the water. I just thought "Why not?" and made them possible to build. I guess they could be useful on archipelago maps with lots of small canals etc.PS.III I've just recalled - one of the techs allows formers to "construct mine field". What the heck is that?
It's still not quite the same. And there is still not a big difference between unitarian and federal versions of demo and PS.Originally posted by Maniac
By the Ascetic Guild, factional boni and penalties, brood pits & cybernetic societies it's still possible to have the whole range of the POLICE SE factor.
My advice - use 'realism' very carefully. I've seen several designers who wanted to create 'realistic' games and they all failed due to it. Hey, infantry units traverse several hundreds kilometres in one year, while cars are only twice as fast. Is is realistic? No. Does it hurt you? No. Remember, playability is far more important than realism.But basically I just thought that a Police penalty fitted better with a democracy than with a free market. No nerve stapling, no military running over the streets in a democracy...
The same as for politics - IMO your private economies are too similar to each other, narrowing the range of choices. And both of them look much more juicy than traditional FM, at least at the first glance. In our CO2 PBEM I've already beelined to Industrial Base to get Protectionism. I'm not saying that's bad, for now I'm just noting down the differences. But Planned really doesn't look convincing at all right now.There are some nice consequences of this change though as far as I can see. In the standard game the combination PS-FM is not very good. A change from -5 Police to -3 Police is not very significant, especially since there are a couple tricks to circumvent pacifism drones anyway. In SMAniaC the PS-Private economy combo gives +2 Police, so it's more attractive IMO. Increased strategic variety possible in other words.
Good point, I really like the fact you included the Talent factor in your SE. All in all, you SE look balanced and allowing nice combos. I have a slight impression that warmongers are in a bit worse situation than in vanilla SMAX, but it is yet to be confirmed. What I mean is right now is much easier to get +2 ECON, while good military choices (both PS) cover serious research hit. Likewise, you overlooked to improve the worst choice in ol' SMAX - Power, ie. Junta. I think that is very important, as many people agree Power is underpowered.Re democracies themselves, they have +1 Talent besides -2 Police. So these effects cancel each other until you reach the second bureaucracy limit, and it isn't that much different than in the standard game (except for not having to build garrisons for all your bases).
But why not scrap both +1 Talent & -2 Police if it evens each other out? Besides the minor effect of not being able to nerve staple under a democracy, the +1 Talent can be useful to achieve golden age popbooming. Good for factions such as the Consciousness, Pirates and Morganites who are often screwed if they can't get the Human Genome Project in the standard game. Now they have another way to get that extra talent, which I think strengthens especially the Consciousness and Pirates who are considered weak in the standard game.
Now I see. I was surprised because after researching this tech nothing changed in terraform options. Of course those were land formers. I think that regardless of bunkers' usefulness, it's good you included them. Never too many options, I say.Oh just bunkers in the water. I just thought "Why not?" and made them possible to build. I guess they could be useful on archipelago maps with lots of small canals etc.
One more thing I've noticed. In SManiac, Spartan Police bonus really does make the difference. In our CO2 I benefit from +1 Talent while still can pacify the next drone. If it was standard I 'd consider even ICSing. This change is also good, as Spartans are a bit worse than other factions.
Yes, but if a game can be made more realistic while that doesn't make playability suffer, why not do so? In fact if used wisely, realism will make the game more immersive, fun and thus more playable. Realism and playability don't have to be opposites. To give an example, in my opinion in Europa Universalis II you can feel like a Portuguese explorer scouting the coasts of Africa, or in Victoria like a Russian general invading British India much better than you could in similar civ scenarios. One of the main reasons IMO is that the time engine and unit movement in the Paradox games makes much more sense than those silly one square a year unit movement in civ games that you just quoted. Likewise in the standard game -5 Police for free market really does bother me and makes the game less fun for me, as there are plenty of police states and authoritarian regimes in the real world that have what SMAC would call a 'free market'. Since I'm a political scientist I guess this kind of stuff bothers me more than the average person. But fact is at least I personally want my games to feel realistic as much as reasonably possible. Eg even I could I doubt I would like playing an unmodded Civ4 a lot because it all feels like a bunch of unrealistic crap. It just doesn't draw me in.My advice - use 'realism' very carefully. I've seen several designers who wanted to create 'realistic' games and they all failed due to it. Hey, infantry units traverse several hundreds kilometres in one year, while cars are only twice as fast. Is is realistic? No. Does it hurt you? No. Remember, playability is far more important than realism.
I don't really understand what's your critique. Is it the lack of a 0 Police SE choice, the lack of a -5 Police option, or something else?It's still not quite the same. [re POLICE]
Currently it'sAnd there is still not a big difference between unitarian and federal versions of demo and PS.
(quoted from modSE.txt in the documentation folder of SMAniaC)2) STATE STRUCTURE
Unitary: +2 PROBE, +1 SUPPORT
<->
Federal: +2 EFFIC
What would you add or change?
Yup I agree. What would you add or change here? Personally I can't really find something good.The same as for politics - IMO your private economies are too similar to each other, narrowing the range of choices.
(If only Civ4 would work on my laptop - I have already plenty of ideas how SMAniaC could be improved with the extra moddability.)
Currently Private/Protectionist economies give:And both of them look much more juicy than traditional FM, at least at the first glance. In our CO2 PBEM I've already beelined to Industrial Base to get Protectionism. I'm not saying that's bad, for now I'm just noting down the differences. But Planned really doesn't look convincing at all right now.
Private / Protectionist: +2 ECONOMY, -1 TALENT, -1 INDUSTRY, -1 SUPPORT
In the standard game:
+2 ECONOMY, -5 POLICE, -3 PLANET
The -5 Police is more or less replaced by the -1 Talent. The difference is that now you can explore out of your own borders without pacifism drones, but that's done intentionally so that the AI doesn't ruin itself by running Private-owned economies.
-3 Planet has been removed as well. There's the realism reason
It was my intention to make it easier for early warmongering! (But harder once air power arrives on the scene.) So I hope your impression turns out wrong.Good point, I really like the fact you included the Talent factor in your SE. All in all, you SE look balanced and allowing nice combos. I have a slight impression that warmongers are in a bit worse situation than in vanilla SMAX, but it is yet to be confirmed.Go kick some but with those Spartans!
Re the SE choices:
But because there's no more -5 Police, warmongers can get +2 ECON as easily as builders!What I mean is right now is much easier to get +2 ECON,
Personally I'm actually worried Police State is way too powerful compared to Democracy. So I'm glad someone disagrees with me.while good military choices (both PS) cover serious research hit.
The Industry penalty has been halved from -2 to -1. And it's available earlier in the game, at level 4 weapons, so warmongers can have a decent army early in the game I hope.Likewise, you overlooked to improve the worst choice in ol' SMAX - Power, ie. Junta. I think that is very important, as many people agree Power is underpowered.
Yup the Spartans are my favourite faction. I have to admit with every change I made the question "How does this affect the Spartans?" was in my mind.One more thing I've noticed. In SManiac, Spartan Police bonus really does make the difference. In our CO2 I benefit from +1 Talent while still can pacify the next drone. If it was standard I 'd consider even ICSing. This change is also good, as Spartans are a bit worse than other factions.I hope they can in multiplayer compete on equal footing now with the usual suspects such as Uni, PK, Morgan, Drones... In any case, the AI plays the Spartans really well now.
'slight' improvementThe AI Probe was not really meant to make the AI better at offensive probing - that's a goal doomed for failure. I'm just hoping that once in a while when you sent out a probe to an AI faction, you will face an AI probe in their base and will have to return empty-handed or come back with reinforcements.
If you feel the need to keep probe defences in your bases, that's already a slight improvement though IMO.
unfortunatly smac cant capture the scope of things,that as time passes a FM will allow business leaders to make descisions that impact-pollution for instance and unstoped devolopment. on that note,a FM should have +growth also, although the complexity id like to see isnt there to support it.that I don't really see why free market economies would per definition be worse for the environment than planned economies
actually havnt played for a few weeks(smaniac),ill have to fire it up when i have a spare minute.there are some really strong SE iirc that i mostly used.ill dl the latest update today againPersonally I'm actually worried Police State is way too powerful compared to Democracy. So I'm glad someone disagrees with me. In any case, I'm curious what SE choices everyone is going to make.
if you want to stop terrorism; stop participating in it
''Oh,Commissar,if we could put the potatoes in one pile,they would reach the foot of God''.But,replied the commissar,''This is the Soviet Union.There is no God''.''Thats all right'' said the worker,''There are no potatoes''
this is common in normal smax too. basicly no unit next to it=no attack.supposedly they head for nearest base,but my experiance 59\50 they just leave periodHmmm, I haven't noticed that myself. I'll try to watch out for it.
if you want to stop terrorism; stop participating in it
''Oh,Commissar,if we could put the potatoes in one pile,they would reach the foot of God''.But,replied the commissar,''This is the Soviet Union.There is no God''.''Thats all right'' said the worker,''There are no potatoes''
Is there a list of all the changes this mode makes to the Game? I've downloaded and looked for a text file with this info but I didn't see one. I've read through this tread and its difficult to tell what all modifications have been made to the base game structure.
Is this something you've been keeping track of Maniac?
He sure keeps track of this thread. You'll have a response quickly enough.
Can something be done to make Fundamentalism more balanced, without overpowering it? One of the things that attracts me to this game is the thought of what my bases look like, what my units fight like, etc. Frankly, I get bored running a Democracy, because they're no fun. There's something to be said for having an army of Fundie Spartans, single-minded in their efforts to obliderate their opponents.
EDIT: To clarify, I'd like to see Fundamentalism as being used for something other then warmongering. Both Police State and Democracy have their advantages to Builders, but Fundamentalism seems only useful when fighting. I'd love to see it adjusted to be a viable and useful builder/hybrid SE choice, without replacing Democracy. I've never like the idea of swapping government types in and out during gameplay. Sure, it's an aspect of the game, but are such sweeping, rapid, constant changes really all that realistic?
Last edited by Harpalus; December 31, 2005 at 14:49.
(Such as Germany going Imperialism >>> Democracy >>> Dictatorship >>> Democracy all in the space of "40 turns"?)Originally posted by Harpalus
..............................but are such sweeping, rapid, constant changes really all that realistic?
(A good example, but consider that the "ruling class" changed each time, and those changes, for the most part, occured as a result of losing a war. [Directly or indirectly] In SMAC, however, almost everybody changes governments often, with the faction leader remaining each time.)
The fossile fuels thing... It gives you missile launchers, since you can't have a weapon that propels itself using fission/fusion reactions, can you? It'd be way too expensive to launch reactor core-loaded rockets to destroy things.
Also gives you fungicide tanks. Maybe the best way to kill fungus is use some form of hydrocarbon.?
I'm afraid not.Originally posted by ERKUTHER
Is there a list of all the changes this mode makes to the Game? I've downloaded and looked for a text file with this info but I didn't see one. I've read through this tread and its difficult to tell what all modifications have been made to the base game structure.
Is this something you've been keeping track of Maniac?
Well to be honest, when I started on SMAniaC, I indeed intended to keep a list of the changes, but as said it would be much to record every little change especially with the entire tech tree shited around, so I didn't continue it. For the record, here's the little I wrote, but I doubt it's of much use. Who knows if one day I know nothing to do, I might continue on it.
It's been simply removed from SMAniaC's SE system.Originally posted by Harpalus
Can something be done to make Fundamentalism more balanced, without overpowering it?
I don't doubt the use of fossil fuels. I'm wondering though if it would be useful to recreate synthetic organic fossil fuels.Originally posted by The_Reckoning
The fossile fuels thing... It gives you missile launchers, since you can't have a weapon that propels itself using fission/fusion reactions, can you? It'd be way too expensive to launch reactor core-loaded rockets to destroy things.
Also gives you fungicide tanks. Maybe the best way to kill fungus is use some form of hydrocarbon.?
a file compare program could easily find the changes. i used one in debuging a CMN issue. on the other hand, it takes a little effort stillWell to be honest, when I started on SMAniaC, I indeed intended to keep a list of the changes, but as said it would be much to record every little change especially with the entire tech tree shited around, so I didn't continue it. For the record, here's the little I wrote, but I doubt it's of much use. Who knows if one day I know nothing to do, I might continue on it.
if you want to stop terrorism; stop participating in it
''Oh,Commissar,if we could put the potatoes in one pile,they would reach the foot of God''.But,replied the commissar,''This is the Soviet Union.There is no God''.''Thats all right'' said the worker,''There are no potatoes''
Thanks for the info Maniac, as soon as I wipe out those pesky proginators and can secure my diplomatic victory I'll start a new game with the mod and give it a whirl. Everyone seems to be enjoying it and I like what I see for modifications detailed in the thread.
* A typo in helpx.txt has been corrected.
* Information in modSE.txt and modtech.doc updated or expanded.
* The Free Drone research penalty has been increased to -3 RESEARCH.
* Changes to the Cult of Planet:
- Their fungal nutrient bonus has been removed. Instead they now get +1 fungal mineral and energy, to differentiate the faction from the Bree.
- Their Industry penalty has been scrapped.
* A custom faction, the Bree, has been added. Look for it in the ‘custom factions’ folder. You’ll also find there the alphax.txt you need to use to include this faction in the game. The faction graphics and concept are from The Network Node (www.networknode.org)
* Datalink info concerning research point accumulation in Conclave and Drone faction files corrected. The Conclave can research from the beginning. The Drones have to wait five years.
* Mineral restrictions are now lifted with researching Industrial Base instead of Industrial Automation. This was done so that the Cult doesn't have to research all the way to Industrial Automation before being able to profit fully from their fungal mineral bonus which they now have.
* Mining platforms now again produce one instead of two minerals in the beginning.
* The tech which gives a +1 mineral bonus has been moved forward from Bionanomachinery (a level 7 tech) to Industrial Automation.
I'll try to remember to update the whole download in my sig this weekend. Comments and critique on the new Cult and Bree are welcome. Overpowered? Underpowered?
This isnt forgetten, but ive put off trying it out as im quite busy.
if you want to stop terrorism; stop participating in it
''Oh,Commissar,if we could put the potatoes in one pile,they would reach the foot of God''.But,replied the commissar,''This is the Soviet Union.There is no God''.''Thats all right'' said the worker,''There are no potatoes''
No prob - I won't be pissed off at you if you don't play SMAniaC.Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
This isnt forgetten, but ive put off trying it out as im quite busy.
Regarding the update, I already changed a few things about bree.txt... So consider the update posted two days ago a 'beta'.
First off thanks and congratz on making such a nice mod. I really like alot of what you have done with techs and units. I have played a bit of SP with it the last couple of days and there are a few factions, atleast in SP, that seem to be having trouble competing with the other AI. Again this is AI controlled in SP, so they are prolly managable by a good player, but AI hasn't had much success in my few games.
Morgan: that -2 support has him not doing much at all in games
so far. In fact in current game he's trying to run uni police to compensate with not much success.
Drones: that -3 research and no research for first 5 yrs is a crippler. A nice challenge for a human player maybe, but in both games I have played they where eradicated early. Might just be bad luck with a hostile neighbor in each game(Hive and Spartans).
Conclave: Not sure what is happening here. In my latest game they have 6 techs after 125 yrs of play. I think they are running junta and\or uni police so they have great support, but a bunch of crap units and very slow research.
I realize these observations are with limited testing and many of the original game factions had balance problems. Morgan and Drones might be better off with -1 supp and -2 research respectively in AI control. Not sure what to make Conclave a better faction for the overall game.
The -1 planet for the Cyborg is a good penalty for them, although seems to be missing from info in selection screen of the game.
Resources in fungus make Cult and Bree formidable as AI, and I like what you have done to make the Spartans perform better.
I haven't noticed any problems with native life forms not attacking like another player above, they seem to be attacking units and bases as normal.
I'm not sure what you did with the world builder, but in my games so far the continents seem to be connected which is nice since AI has probs with sea invasion.
Again, thanks for all your efforts on your mod, I have been having alot of fun with it.
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