ATTN Crustacian, Wezil, Berzerker, Finbar, Deity, Markus

[Curumbor Elendil]

This is re the "New Millennium Diplomacy Game" discussed via ICQ. Here are some of my ideas on settings...

1) Play on a Europe map. Most diplomacy games have been on the world map, a couple recent ones have used Europe, and it looks like fun. We can even use the civilizations from the real Diplomacy board game: Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Austria, Russia, & Turkey.

2) Use traditional diplomacy rules: declare war a turn before attacking (maybe make an exception for non-bribing espionage); spies & diplomats more expensive (I think also adding a rule of only 1 city bribe per turn might be good); no expiry of Oracle; expiry of Pyramids at Refrigeration; new Trade Vessel unit with no attack capability to eliminate unhappiness factor in Dem & Rep; reduce cost of caravans slightly; eliminate nukes.

3) Add enhancements for gameplay, some suggested by Markus recently in this forum: add alpine capability to catapults, cannons, and artillery (which are otherwise nearly useless till railroad); no goody huts; map revealed from start; each civ with two start cities fairly placed; reduce dramatically costs of nearly useless wonders like Lighthouse and Magellan (nearly useless only on the Europe map, that is!), reduce somewhat costs of much less useful wonders like UN, eliminate altogether totally useless wonders like Eiffel.

4) Add enhancements for historical realism: increase turns/tech rate (14/10 factor has turned out to be most realistic in my testing); triple or quadruple movement rates for ships & air units (it's absurd to think that a battleship takes 2 years to go from Norway to Britain, or a stealth bomber can't fly from France to Yugoslavia in a year); giving caravans & freight alpine ability (I think this is plausible only if we're using a "micro" map like Europe); cosmetic changes to wonders, civilization names, etc. to match the map we're playing on.

I've tried these settings on the Europe map (I can post the rules.txt for those who are interested). In eight games with the AIs only, half on King level, half on Emperor, Russia and Italy each won twice; France, Turkey, Germany, and Austria each won once; and Britain never won and was usually near last place. However, I played two games with myself as the British, on Emperor and Deity level, and not only won, but utterly destroyed the AIs. Apparently the AI, when given Britain, is very stupid about using ships to settle overseas (Norway, northern Europe, Spain). It really appears that the civilizations would be equally matched when played by humans.

I can also post images of the starting positions and so on, but first I wanted to see your suggestions about these settings on a conceptual level.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

Note: it wasn't actually "europe.mp" that I tested these things on, but a variation of "realeurope.mp," which takes into account the curvature of the earth (uses a different projection) and cuts out most of the Middle East. Unfortunately, the original realeurope (which is also being used in another diplo game, I believe) has hundreds of lakes scattered about, apparently for irrigation purposes. They're ugly, & I replaced them with river squares. I also altered other terrain slightly to calibrate starting positions.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Crustacian]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>&lt;font size=1&gt;Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 11-29-2000 01:39 PM&lt;/font&gt;
3) Add enhancements for gameplay, some suggested by Markus recently in this forum: add alpine capability to catapults, cannons, and artillery (which are otherwise nearly useless till railroad); no goody huts; map revealed from start; each civ with two start cities fairly placed; reduce dramatically costs of nearly useless wonders like Lighthouse and Magellan (nearly useless only on the Europe map, that is!), reduce somewhat costs of much less useful wonders like UN, eliminate altogether totally useless wonders like Eiffel.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Crusty: With alpine capability these units would have a similar benifit as if they moved on a road. So without it, they would not be useless until RR with the use of a road. These units need to have other supporting units to make them usefull too. Why not leave them as is and build roads/forts, and send defensive units in ahead. Nothing like a good seige!

Otherwise wait til a more decisive weapon can be invented.
Or if you still need to make an adaption here, consider reducing the effectivness of pikemen instead.
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4) Add enhancements for historical realism: increase turns/tech rate (14/10 factor has turned out to be most realistic in my testing); triple or quadruple movement rates for ships & air units (it's absurd to think that a battleship takes 2 years to go from Norway to Britain, or a stealth bomber can't fly from France to Yugoslavia in a year); giving caravans & freight alpine ability (I think this is plausible only if we're using a "micro" map like Europe); cosmetic changes to wonders, civilization names, etc. to match the map we're playing on.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Crusty: This as well as the other things mentioned seem like good ideas for a game like this.
One other idea would be to use "no tech on city capture" option.
Can someone program it into the game to wipe trade routes with a civ that you go to war with?

The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited November 29, 2000).]</font>

[Curumbor Elendil]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Crustacian on 11-29-2000 03:43 PM</font>
Crusty: With alpine capability these units would have a similar benifit as if they moved on a road. So without it, they would not be useless until RR with the use of a road. These units need to have other supporting units to make them usefull too. Why not leave them as is and build roads/forts, and send defensive units in ahead. Nothing like a good seige!
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

You have a good point. I guess the alpine ability would help these units mostly: 1) early in the game (before roads are universal); 2) for exploring, rather than attacking, purposes. If the general consensus is that this is at best an irrelevant change, then we should just ditch it.

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Crusty: This as well as the other things mentioned seem like good ideas for a game like this.
One other idea would be to use "no tech on city capture" option.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

What's your reasoning? I've always thought that that option allows people to catch up who are otherwise way behind (by taking a military route).

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
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Can someone program it into the game to wipe trade routes with a civ that you go to war with?

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Ah man, that would be great! I doubt it's possible, though.


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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Crustacian]

It is true that gaining a tech upon capturing a city helps make up for science lost due to mounting a war.

But it also can go a bit too far along the line of excessive tech trading by being a "you capture it/I'll capture it tech swap fest.

It also allows the victor to CHOOSE which tech he wants and could even choose a means of building armored units before even having the understanding to drill for oil let alone refine it into fuel and so on. True we are all used to this feature of the game and some might miss it.

The no tech on city capture option will IMHO:

1)encourage each civ to not neglect their science. And if finding themselves behind, have to REALLY work cleverly to catch up by negotiations and growth and trade routes.

2)To not gain techs far superior to their "realistic" ability to utilize as described above.

3)prevent a city trading fest...maybe not even a concern depending on who you are playing with.

But all would need to be in agreement that the other benifits from capturing a city would be enough without the use of this feature.

Also if another early unit needs to be available with alpine movement besides the explorer unit, maybe it could be something other than catapult/artillary?

**How about making the explorer more costly to build and with an attack factor? Having a zero attack helps most in democracy which is later anyway

[Curumbor Elendil]

Hm, those are good points, but I haven't seen the city-swapping phenomenon you describe happen frequently in diplomacy-type games, usually because either: 1) players don't take a city unless they really think they can keep it (this is certainly my philosophy), or 2) players don't usually declare war in diplomacy games until they have such an overwhelming advantage that they're able to take several cities and effectively emasculate the opposition.

I think we should vote on this one, though; the others may agree with your proposal & I'm willing to follow the majority!

Re giving the explorer an attack rating... I'm not sure I'd want to do that as I'm not sure what attack role an explorer might play. The game already gives us basically a full range of military units. If there's a noticeably deficient area (like the Trade Vessel) I'd be open to filling it.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Crustacian]

Well after we have chewed over all suggestions for awhile, a vote will establish how it will be.
But a recount may be necissary!
All your other ideas seem fine to me

[Wezil]

Interesting ideas CE. Still looking for the perfect game?

Couple points:

1) You want to increase the building cost of dips and reduce their capabilities (but not remove their most absurd trait - the city bribe) yet remove nukes altogether?

2) Catapults and other 'seige' equip should not have their movement affected. These units aren't intended as 'explorers' and I'm not sure someone wants to see herd of catties bearing down on them.


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"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!

[Curumbor Elendil]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Wezil on 11-30-2000 10:34 AM</font>
Interesting ideas CE. Still looking for the perfect game?

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Of course! Aren't we all?

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1) You want to increase the building cost of dips and reduce their capabilities (but not remove their most absurd trait - the city bribe) yet remove nukes altogether?

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Removing nukes altogether is essential, as the original diplo players discovered. If you're not going to win anyway, and you have the nuclear capability, there's no reason not to use it. That's a problem with Civ's realism, since it's a zero-sum game, whereas reality is not (if you kill more of the enemy than the enemy kills of you, it can still be a tragedy in real life, whereas that's a "victory" in Civ).

I'm open to eliminating city bribe, but IMO with a one-city-per-turn rule or something of that nature it shouldn't be too much of a problem. The only problems I've had with it in the past is with people taking advantage of anarchy to bribe a bunch of cities in those few turns while anarchy persists.

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2) Catapults and other 'seige' equip should not have their movement affected. These units aren't intended as 'explorers' and I'm not sure someone wants to see herd of catties bearing down on them.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

OK. I think I see a consensus emerging here, though Markus may side with my original proposal.

So does this mean you're interested in playing Weez? You didn't respond to my ICQ message.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Wezil]

My schedule is rather uncertain these days. It would be best if I not commit to a regular diplogame until that is settled.

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"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!

[Jedi518]

Im really interested in thesse type of games, any chance i can get in with you guys?

[deity]

As discussed with Elendil, I am in this game.
Still thinking about the settings though.
May THE DEITIANS have their dark blue colour Otherwise light blue!

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[deity]

Well, that'll teach me to post before reading the thread!
I hates Europe map! Rather play on Middle Earth
Oh well....

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[Curumbor Elendil]

You hate the European map? How can anyone hate Europe? Have you seen "realeurope"? It's very nice. And the placement of the civs makes for a balanced game.

Weez - we're starting the game in January, so hopefully you'll know your schedule by then?

Jedi - Sure...Actually, we've been looking for another player since Finbar will be out of the country. I asked Moker but got no response; I was also thinking of asking you. So since you volunteered, welcome aboard!

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[finbar]

I'll be back around January 7th.

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Founder, ACS Pedantry Institute
Founder, ACS Gourmet Recipe Exchange
Troll & Hydey Wrangler
Mono Rules!
#33984591

[Moker Guy]

it would be fun to play with the players metioned on a gigaworld, im in a eurodip right now and it is good but the flat map is kinda boring.

Moker

[Curumbor Elendil]

Fin - I didn't realize you'd be back so soon. Well, now Markus is the only one I haven't heard from, so maybe we can tentatively say the roster is: me, Crustacian, Wezil, Berzerker, Finbar, Deity, Jediscum, pending what Wezil discovers about his schedule.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

My damned memory is going out again... I actually *did* hear from Markus via ICQ...so we currently have 8 potential players. We'll see how this sorts out in January. If necessary we'll stay with the original 7...

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[deity]

Need a markus in this group
Too many nice ones here!
Cept for the organiser of course! HA HA!!!
lol

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[Curumbor Elendil]

Yeah, between Markus and myself we'll have a lot of intrigue...or plain old frontal assaults.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

Last night, Jediscum, Berzerker, and I tested out the game under the original settings described above. We got to about 600 BC. We discovered several things.

First, you are right, Crustacian. Having catapults running amok is not a good thing. I went ahead and changed this.

Second, all three of us were _very_ close together at the end, so I think that speaks well of the placement of the civilizations and general fairness of the map (assuming we're all equally talented! ).

Third, there was a negotiations bug, which I fixed.

Fourth, revealing the map may not be a good idea. It allows you to see the positions of all other civilizations' cities. I wish it were possible to have just the terrain revealed. I will play with this.

Fifth, quadrupling ship movement rate, while more realistic, is a bit too much for the gameplay. It definitely removes any disadvantages the British suffer from starting on an island, but it may in fact advantage them too much. I still think ship movement should be at least doubled, and I doubt there's much disagreement on that.

Finally, the cosmetic changes I've made seem to be appreciated: changing Pyramids to Viaduct, Hanging Gardens to Stonehenge, Fundamentalism to Fascism, Fanatics to Stormtroopers, Sun Tzu's War Academy to Holy Crusades, King Richard's Crusade to King's Blacksmithy, etc., etc.

If anyone would like to playtest this some more, especially once I fix the map, that would be great.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[kent-jo]

I would like to play, if you want me in this game..

What days are you guys thinking to play this game?
Saturdays and EARLY sundays works fine with me..

I'm currently in a EuroDiplo with Moker Guy..

[Curumbor Elendil]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by kent-jo on 12-04-2000 02:44 PM</font>
I would like to play, if you want me in this game..

What days are you guys thinking to play this game?
Saturdays and EARLY sundays works fine with me..

I'm currently in a EuroDiplo with Moker Guy..
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well, we already have enough players for the game, and we aren't starting until after January 7. However, if you want to play with me on the map in advance as part of my testing, that of course would be fine.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Jedi518]

yea the idea with the catapults movment rate being changed, really screwed me up...the ai went straight for math and took out 2 cities out of nowhere with the cats, lets stick to the defaults for this one

[Wezil]

I suspected indy catties could be troublesome.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Finally, the cosmetic changes I've made seem to be appreciated: changing Pyramids to Viaduct, Hanging Gardens to Stonehenge, Fundamentalism to Fascism, Fanatics to Stormtroopers, Sun Tzu's War Academy to Holy Crusades, King Richard's Crusade to King's Blacksmithy, etc., etc.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Nice touch.




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"These were giants [The ‘Hellfire’ Club]. They had standards - not like these whimpering mashers who keep fouling our headlines today."

Free the D**d Threads!!

[Crustacian]

Playtesting was a great idea!
However I am not at all against catapults running amuk...with a one movement factor that is

[Hydey]

I offer my services to help with playtesting, if timezones allow. Then I can post an independent review of how the map plays.

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I'm Australia's nuclear cop
I am the real Troll
A.H. is a nice guy

[Curumbor Elendil]

Berzerker and I played again on the revised scenario, with a covered map and ship movements reduce to double their normal rate. Berz was the Turks, I was the French. (Also, Clay Pigeon, Bobbuttons, and Empress played, as the English, Russians, and Germans, respectively.) We got to 600 BC again. I didn't notice any problems with the French civ.

However, we did decide to make two alterations. I had barbarians on restless: that was a problem because they hit people unevenly, and because they caused Berz to lose connection (his computer can never handle barbs for some reason). So I'm taking them off. Also, I'm placing the Turks' two start cities closer together. I originally had them at Ankara and Jerusalem. The corruption caused some problems early on (though the Turks ended up doing very well).

The only other issue that came up is that the Germans (after Empress had left) killed the Austrians off, again. The two civilizations start very close, so when they're AI, they tend to go after each other early on. The human players will have to agree right at the start to expand in opposite directions.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

Crusty and I played a little today, after I made the aforementioned revisions plus another one to help with German-Austrian issue: I deleted the 2nd German city (Leipzig) and placed it farther to the north (Pommerania - or the province now known as Mecklenburg-Verpommern).

I played the Turks, and things went fine. Crusty played the Germans and was in a very close 2nd. The Austrians were a very close 3rd. So I think that settles the question of whether the Germans and Austrians would inevitably destroy each other.

It would still be nice to play at least one round in which we had 7 human players, to see if it went evenly. Also, some of you folks (Wezil, Deity, Markus, Finbar) haven't even seen the map yet.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

I found another potentially disastrous bug: I forgot to make an events.txt forbidding schisms! I've done that now. The new files can be downloaded at:
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/EUROPE.zip

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989