My favourite class of the year.

[Agathon]

Well it happened today, and as usual, I take a perverse pleasure in seeing people's reactions.

We've been reading Plato's Republic and the topic of Greek homosexuality came up, as it inevitably does.

Some confused looks in the class.

So I said, "for anyone that hasn't noticed, all the characters are gay. Yes, gay. Quite gay. In fact very gay."

It wasn't so bad this time, but there were a few shocked looks as it dawned on a few people. How they'd missed the bit where the characters start talking about the cutest sort of boys is beyond me. It amazes me that anyone could read Plato without realizing.

One day I hope no-one will bat an eyelid. Maybe it's the term philopaides that puts them off.

At least it's better than back home, where once some farmer's kid erupted with "are you saying they're all ******s!?!"

That was a truly cringeworthy moment.

[laurentius]

How olds are you teaching?


Western society is so pervert these days

I guess it would be usefull to tell them that male-male or even men-teenage boy relationships were considered valuable and educational experience, in case you want to build up your image as the dirty old man you could wink at some of the handsome boys in the class

[Apocalypse]

They are bisexual, not gay. Damn you're a bad philosophy teacher.

[Asher]

They were irrelevant, not gay or bi.

[Agathon]

They are bisexual, not gay. Damn you're a bad philosophy teacher.

Don't be picky.

I have a hard enough time trying to explain it, since they would be regarded as paedophiles in today's society.

[laurentius]

Who were irrelevant?

People have such an obsession with their sexuality these days. I mean who cares?

[Dracon II]

Isn't it true that gay/straight is a fairly modern typology? I don't think the ancient Greeks saw sexuality as constituting an 'identity', so much as a set of practices...
So yes, from our perspective, they were gay... but for them they were men (or citizens or Greeks or philosophers or whatever), who had sex with boys.

The symposium is another interesting text re: discussing homosexual acts.

[Agathon]

Isn't it true that gay/straight is a fairly modern typology?

It was somewhat controversial in Athens. Plato has an ambivalent attitude towards it.

The man/boy love thing is the most disturbing part of it, but then again Greek women were married off at the same age, so I suppose they were at least consistent.

I'm not surprised that Greek men turned to other men. Most Greek women would have been pretty boring after being cooped up inside all the time.

[Fake Boris]

Do you mean to make your course more appealing, or you really think that discussing the dialogue's homosexual caracteristics is of philosophical interest?

[Agathon]

Do you mean to make your course more appealing, or you really think that discussing the dialogue's homosexual caracteristics is of philosophical interest?

No. I usually don't introduce it, unless there is some reason to (cultural diversity). But what usually happens is that some student asks about it, and I have to explain (to the horror of some of the more conservative students).

[Wycoff]

Originally posted by Dracon II
Isn't it true that gay/straight is a fairly modern typology? I don't think the ancient Greeks saw sexuality as constituting an 'identity', so much as a set of practices...
So yes, from our perspective, they were gay... but for them they were men (or citizens or Greeks or philosophers or whatever), who had sex with boys.

Yeah, plus the ancient Greeks hated women and thought they were almost worthless, IIRC.

[Asher]

Wise men.

[Agathon]

Yeah, plus the ancient Greeks hated women and thought they were almost worthless, IIRC.

Except the hetaeras.

[Dracon II]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Do you mean to make your course more appealing, or you really think that discussing the dialogue's homosexual caracteristics is of philosophical interest?

Could be interesting as part of a discussion on the historical relativity of cultural mores. Not sure if that would be a philosophical or anthropological. Seems to manifest itself in the hollywood version of Troy, in which Patroclus is Achilles' nephew (or cousin?), rather than his lover. Although in Alexander, there seems to be (albeit not explicit) extremely obvious themes of homosexual love.

Interesting in Greece was the relationship between homosexuality and the military... like that unit of Theban hoplites which consisted entirely of lovers willing to die for each other. Perhaps it went hand in hand with the Greek cult of the male body, where there was a certain fusion of strength and beauty. Might be a recurring meme, given that gymnasiums nowadays are a favoured haunt for many gay men.

[Asher]

I gym 4 times a week, baby!