Turn 251: 1305AD

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 02:09

Building:

Tempest: UN, 118spt, 6t
WoC: BB, 105spt, 2t
EotS: Bomber, 100spt, 1t
Dissidentville: BB, 68spt, 3t
Hurricane: BB, 68spt, 3t
Tornado: MI, 60spt, 1t
SA: MI, 58spt, 2t
Arashi: MI, 56spt, 1t
Bolderberg: Bomber, 54spt, 1t
Monsoon: Transport, 52spt, 1t
Typhoon: Transport, 50spt, 1t
Blizzard: Artillery, 40spt, 2t
OG: Carrier, 26spt, 5t
Inchoff: DD, 24spt, 5t
WW: Civil Defense, 24spt, 1t

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 02:37

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 03:02

I have all but 3 of our Workers on Lego on CoBW (Tip) 87. We should send RP a message saying they should capture them.

Sending Flight+WM to RP accepted.

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 03:18

Maybe we should think about giving RSE to Vox in exchange for a constant Rubber supply. We get a safer Rubber supply than if we or RP hold it, and Vox gets some more useful territory. Could even tie our Luxuries into the deal so that Vox is less likely to want to break it.

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 03:32

Luxilou is size 5 now, and costs too much (54g) for us to be investigating each turn. ND has said when they will finish up Rocketry anyways, so we don't really need the information. I think we will have just enough gold to finish researching Miniaturization in 6 turns (when ND is schedualed to finish the UN) and still have 500g to pay ND for Rocketry.

I've put 10 MI, 10 Artillery, 10 Tanks, and a Marine in Monsoon. 10 MI in the Hill Fort at Monsoon 1. 10 MI on the Fort inbetween WW and OG. 8 MI in OG and 7 MI in WW. So even if ND were to sail this turn from Luxilou they'd have no shot at landing this turn.

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 03:47

Closed the save and sent to ND.

Aeson · February 8, 2005, 03:59

1305AD GS Battle Report:

4/4 DD attacks Lego 4/4 Sub UZ-1, DD 2/4
4/4 DD attacks Lego 4/4 DD HBS Iason. Defensive bombardment misses. GS 3/5 DD.

DeepO · February 8, 2005, 09:36

Aeson, I don't know if you took this into account, but the Lego fleet could be fortified so it can spot one tile further than expected. All they need to do is wake a inf, and fortify all...

DeepO

DeepO · February 13, 2005, 07:05

Originally posted by Aeson
I have all but 3 of our Workers on Lego on CoBW (Tip) 87. We should send RP a message saying they should capture them.

This still needed to be done... I'm on it.

Have RP landed yet? I thought they were a couple of turns away from landing on Legoland. Without units, it's not so easy to capture workers

DeepO

DeepO · February 13, 2005, 07:26

done

I just remembered they asked for help for palace jumping as well... I'll look into that as well.

Aeson, how much gold do you need from RP over the next few turns in order to get to Mini before ND can build the UN? Their jump can wait, we can not.

BTW, keep in mind that when RP captures those workers and offers peace, we're out of mob. In many cities, this will change the situation greatly. I've asked for a precise eta on this, as there is no way out: for 1 turn at least you're going to miss the bonus in all our cities (unless it coincides with discovery of mini)

This could be a good time to change builds to unis in some cities. Can offshore platforms be build under mob?

DeepO

DeepO · February 13, 2005, 07:29

Originally posted by Aeson
Maybe we should think about giving RSE to Vox in exchange for a constant Rubber supply. We get a safer Rubber supply than if we or RP hold it, and Vox gets some more useful territory. Could even tie our Luxuries into the deal so that Vox is less likely to want to break it.

Interesting idea, but do we trust Vox enough for this? they already got a lot of territory from us. I still don't fully see what we gained from that... I doubt them being grateful to us.

DeepO

DeepO · February 13, 2005, 07:34

One more thing: where does the RP settler in our core go to? I think I saw it mentioned here somewhere, but can't immediately find it anymore.

DeepO

Aeson · February 13, 2005, 15:11

Originally posted by DeepO
Interesting idea, but do we trust Vox enough for this? they already got a lot of territory from us. I still don't fully see what we gained from that... I doubt them being grateful to us.

Well my thinking was that Vox can't backstab us alone. If they ever were to backstab us it would be with GoW or ND, either of which could easily capture our Rubber source from us or RP.

So in any scenario I think it doesn't hurt us to do. If we tie it in to the Luxury trade with Vox it may give them more of a reason not to ally against us.

Aeson · February 13, 2005, 15:17

Originally posted by DeepO
Have RP landed yet? I thought they were a couple of turns away from landing on Legoland. Without units, it's not so easy to capture workers

I think they can land in 4 turns as they have those 2 Transports 9 of Inchoff. If we give them Squall they can land rolling.

For now it would be better if they send those Transports to Lego. The ND threat seems to have waned somewhat.

Aeson · February 13, 2005, 15:20

Originally posted by DeepO
One more thing: where does the RP settler in our core go to? I think I saw it mentioned here somewhere, but can't immediately find it anymore.

I've changed my mind since then anyways. Sandstorm 1 is the best tile for them to keep the Settler on as it can't be hit with pollution, under no scenario would need to have it's improvement changed (FP), and isn't coastal.

Aeson · February 13, 2005, 15:26

Originally posted by DeepO
Aeson, how much gold do you need from RP over the next few turns in order to get to Mini before ND can build the UN? Their jump can wait, we can not.

Depends on whether or not ND is going to delay due to the mobilization bug. At the current tech rate (6 turns) we have very close to what we need including the 500g to ND for Rocketry. We might be able to squeeze by with the slider reduction the 5th turn, but I don't think so. So we'd need at least one more turn of 100g.

If we can back off to 7 turns then I think we have enough gold.

BTW, keep in mind that when RP captures those workers and offers peace, we're out of mob. In many cities, this will change the situation greatly. I've asked for a precise eta on this, as there is no way out: for 1 turn at least you're going to miss the bonus in all our cities (unless it coincides with discovery of mini)

I thought that you could choose to leave Mobilization once peace is made, staying in it indefinitely otherwise. Something to check into. If we can stay in Mobilization for at least a few turns to build Jet Fighters once we get Rocketry it would be a good idea.

This could be a good time to change builds to unis in some cities. Can offshore platforms be build under mob?

No idea. Something else to check into.

Aeson · February 13, 2005, 16:14

Originally posted by DeepO
Did you find someone to assist you in the palace jump? If not, I'll see if I can give you a plan. Prime consideration for the moment is that you have to get your capital down in size quickly. Build only settlers and workers (settlers if they can be built in 1 or 2 turns, otherwise workers. At least one settler to re-establish the city).

We can capture their capitol to jump the Palace, which will save some non-cultural improvements and the pop for us to give back to them.

It could help to keep your other cities on Estonia at size 11 or lower, but normally it doesn't matter: you will have to rush a aquaduct in your new capital, and poprush it to size 12 anyway. With the new workers you are given, this should not be too much of a problem.

The formula can be found here: (I think it's not complete, at least for C3C military units and/or Workers/Settlers in cities end up counting as well... so tell them to have all the units they can in the city to jump to just in case, and as little as possible in other cities.)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=80341

They are going to be adding foreign Workers to the city to jump to. They count 1/3 as much as native citizens, and any tie will go to the Stormia cities.

We can get around this by having RP gift us back the target city and we add the Workers, then gift it back to RP. Giving away a city changes the nationality of the citizens.

As for the target city, it should be Ft Spinebreaker IMO. I set this city up with a ring of cities at distance 4/4.5 thinking towards this, 4 already built, and another site available at Ft Spinebreaker 889 (claims Uranium) at that distance.

So have RP gift us back Ft Spinebreaker after they can build an Aquaduct there, and not capture the Workers yet.

RP should probably give us all the Stormia cities. Don't bother building the FP up there as they can get more use out of it on Lego (combined with the use we'd get out of N Stormia, especially if defense concerns are taken into account) I think.

We need to have Santa Barbara repositioned in any case. It's too much of a target/threat between us and GoW. I would also move San Antonio 89, El Paso 99, and Monterey 8. San Deigo is ok as no rolling invasion could reach it. RP's FP may be more useful over on Lego up by Deluge (probably repositioned 4 onto the coast). If they build the FP up there with a 3 distance ring they should have almost no corruption on Lego.

We could then just start feeding Workers from our 2 pumps and all the cities being repositioned to RP to help them build up their Lego populations ASAP.

Aeson · February 13, 2005, 16:19

I just checked in C3C and mobilization ends when you make peace. Anyone have any late game PtW saves laying around to check with?

notyoueither · February 14, 2005, 02:59

I was sure that coming out was a choice. I can't check though. My hard drive with Civ3 wiped out and all old saves are gone.

notyoueither · February 14, 2005, 03:02

Simple to test though.

Create a Modern Start scenario with 3 players. Play all as PBEM. DW, mobilize, make peace and see. I'd do it now, but I forgot to bring that computer home after working on it at the shop.

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 06:38

I've got some saves left, however these are only SP, not PBEM. I don't know the difference...

I don't really have time right now to test either, I'm sorry.

Further: I've read your comments Aeson. I'll answer in detail later. If RP would completely relocate, we are not going to gain a lot from their territory... but perhaps it's best if they're out of our way. Let me think on this a bit longer before commenting.

At any rate, it would be best if they build CH, and possibly a PS in those cities we intend to keep before relocating...

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 07:04

message sent

I'll try to find some time this evening to really look into the situation. I do think that if BF or someone else doesn't show up to help, it would be best if we give them a fully detailed plan, including future city positions...

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 13:05

Originally posted by Aeson

Well my thinking was that Vox can't backstab us alone. If they ever were to backstab us it would be with GoW or ND, either of which could easily capture our Rubber source from us or RP.

That's not so certain. Vox is one of the best defended countries, even if they only have 15 infs. If they sign a MPP with either GoW or ND, we can't attack them, and they are free to cross us.

I know this is a bit simplistic, but it seems to me that we've got a good chance that instead of them growing closer to us, we are creating more incentives for ND/GoW to try to alienate us from GoW.

So in any scenario I think it doesn't hurt us to do. If we tie it in to the Luxury trade with Vox it may give them more of a reason not to ally against us.

Tieing it into the lux deal is for certain if we go that way.

We would be giving Vox even more territory, though. Maybe we can somehow negotiate them giving some territory back to RP in return?

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 13:07

BTW, another message received and answered from Togas. They are having objections to the loss of all their cities, and on the disbanding of Monterrey in particular. I tried to refute their comments, but I'm sure this is not the last communication we had on the matter. Which is good... it is not our role to simply tell them what to do.

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 13:10

Originally posted by Aeson
For now it would be better if they send those Transports to Lego. The ND threat seems to have waned somewhat.

Yeah... but the problem is that if they are on Legoland, they will need at least as long to return to ND from the other side.

This turn it doesn't matter, right? the final decision only needs to be made next turn. Maybe we then have a better idea on ND.

I can see that they don't like to get moved around. This is the 3rd target those conqs are receiving, and so far all their moves only netted them one sunken transport. I would resent it if my 'commander' orders me that.

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 13:15

Originally posted by Aeson
Depends on whether or not ND is going to delay due to the mobilization bug.

Okay, I'm sending a PM to Trip over this, we need a decision. If ND is allowed to continue, we should continue in Tempest as well. However we still need a formal decision if we are going to try for the UN or Internet, as the Internet should give us one more turn (that can be built under mob, right?)

At the current tech rate (6 turns) we have very close to what we need including the 500g to ND for Rocketry. We might be able to squeeze by with the slider reduction the 5th turn, but I don't think so. So we'd need at least one more turn of 100g.

I asked for that 100g.

I thought that you could choose to leave Mobilization once peace is made, staying in it indefinitely otherwise. Something to check into. If we can stay in Mobilization for at least a few turns to build Jet Fighters once we get Rocketry it would be a good idea.

alternatively, we enter mob again right after we declare peace, but use the 1-turn difference to set up unis in those cities that need it most.

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 13:19

Originally posted by Aeson
We need to have Santa Barbara repositioned in any case. It's too much of a target/threat between us and GoW. I would also move San Antonio 89, El Paso 99, and Monterey 8. San Deigo is ok as no rolling invasion could reach it.

I've got to acknowledge Togas' comments here: in moving those cities, we are going to lose all present buildings. While most of these cities are going to be corrupt anyway, this comes at a big cost... is there any way we can keep one more city intact?

I'm more and more convinced we need to take a hold of those cities, even if economically we might be best off if RP builds a FP. But even in our hands, those buildings could gain us something.

DeepO

DeepO · February 14, 2005, 13:33

PM to Trip:

Trip,

we've got a question. It has been on our forum for a while, but as you haven't commented I guess you didn't see it. Well... we're asking you now officially.

ND is building the UN in Borcem. By analyzing the sabotage cost, we have spotted that they are unlawfully gaining the mobilization bonus for this building, and have done so for a couple of turns already. They might not be aware of this, so we are not accusing them of cheating or something like this. However, we need a decision to either stop them from abusing a clear bug, or the approval from you to abuse the same bug in order to outbuild them in Tempest (which currently also receive the mob bonus unlawfully)

We can give you all necessary info, including a workaround to prevent the bug from occuring. You understand that if we let this slip, and with full knowledge of the bug, we are able to abuse the game (just as ND is, of course), and build whatever we want as if we would be in eternal GA.

Very importantly: you are welcome to discuss this with us (the current turn thread would be a good place), but you cannot tell ND we know what they are doing. It would expose our ability to count the shields in their build queue, and whether they know of this possibility or not does not matter, they can not be told we know how it works.

Also, GoW is being the main disadvantaged party here: they are not in mob, and hence are not receiving any bonus. Without the bonus, they would be first in building the UN, not ND, nor us. Now, they are going to lose by 1 turn. Whether they know this, and are using it or not does not matter, the thing is that it changes the way this game is supposed to be played.

We'd like to have a ruling on this soon, but please, be discrete.

DeepO

Aeson · February 14, 2005, 14:08

We could keep the RP cities as they are other than Santa Barbara.

The main reason to move Monterrey is so that it can expand it's borders before we get rid of Santa Barbara so that GoW can't culturally claim any tiles on Stormia. Without that we can't get rid of Santa Barbara because if GoW has culturally claimed tiles on Stormia it could be difficult to deal with diplomatically.

Aeson · February 14, 2005, 14:11

Another message to send would be to notify GoW of the position of Lego's S fleet. GoW sunk a Lego ship close enough to reach the pole fast enough to help if Lego flees due E or W.

Lego S Fleet spotted at Typhoon 2(12)3 (ie. 2222222222223)
Lego S Fleet consists of 1/5 DD, 1/3 DD, 3 4/4 Transports, 4/4 IR.