Reply With QuoteOriginally posted by Berzerker
Kid knows better than me if I'm being exploited.
Read the dictionary.Originally posted by Last Conformist
Defining exploitation with reference with reference to the labour theory of value is "hardly just Marxian"?I challenge you to find one non-Marxist who would agree with it.
(People being idiots, you'll probably find one if you look a bit, but the challenge sounds good.)
Again, the idea of value is not just Marxian. Everyone else seems to agree with me about what value is. My argument is about what creates it. So do you have an argument about what creates value?Anyway, the point isn't about exploitation, but about the utility of the concept of "value" in the Marxist sense. Saying that the Marxist definition of exploitation rests on it won't cut it unless you can give some independent motivation for that.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Originally posted by Berzerker
Kid knows better than me if I'm being exploited.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Originally posted by Kidicious
Since that's not a real situation I don't see how it matters really if we disagree. In the real world the worker gets paid the same whether he has the tractor or not.
kid since when do you care about how things actually work in the real world ?
Isn't what I said completely in agreement with previous discussions where you stated
1. It does not matter if a worker makes more money, it can still be exploitation
2. The true value which a worker is entitled to might not be possible for the capitalist to accurately ascertain
Then you turn around and say that everyone should get a "fair wage" which seems to divorce a worker from the value of their own labor.
The AHD gives no less than ten nominal definitions of "value":Originally posted by Kidicious
Read the dictionary.
1. An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return. 2. Monetary or material worth: the fluctuating value of gold and silver. 3. Worth in usefulness or importance to the possessor; utility or merit: the value of an education. 4. A principle, standard, or quality considered worthwhile or desirable: “The speech was a summons back to the patrician values of restraint and responsibility” (Jonathan Alter). 5. Precise meaning or import, as of a word. 6. Mathematics An assigned or calculated numerical quantity. 7. Music The relative duration of a tone or rest. 8. The relative darkness or lightness of a color. See table at color. 9. Linguistics The sound quality of a letter or diphthong. 10. One of a series of specified values: issued a stamp of new value.
Nothing about labour here that I can see ...
Really?Again, the idea of value is not just Marxian. Everyone else seems to agree with me about what value is.
I'm not seeing any reason to think that the Marxist and capitalist concepts of value refer to the same thing, nor any reason to care about either.My argument is about what creates it. So do you have an argument about what creates value?
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
That's nothing short of insane. You're saying that society derives the exact same value from everything that takes X man hours to produce, regardless of what it is, assuming they all require the same level of education to produce. You're also necessarily implying that if we find a more efficient way of producing something, then society automatically values it less.Originally posted by Kidicious
I'm saying that the value that it gets from goods and services produced with a high school diploma is the same. If if doesn't get as much value from one good as the other even though they took the same amount of labor then it is allocating labor inefficiently.
"The French caused the war [Persian Gulf war, 1991]" - Ned
"you people who bash Bush have no appreciation for one of the great presidents in our history." - Ned
"I wish I had gay sex in the boy scouts" - Dissident
I think I've hurt Kid's feelings
Copycat threads
"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
It seems he's trying to defribulate the thread with lemons
"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
it tells what they think at the item is worth to them. that is what value is. If an individual can not make a decision about value, then neither can a society, which is just a collection of said individuals.Originally posted by Kidicious
But what people pay for an item doesn't determine it's value either. The price is just a mechanism to atract or detract supplies. If there is a shortage the price will be higher, but no value was created. There is only a situation were buyers will bid up the price.
I have to spend my time more wisely.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
I'd appear to be forced to conclude that Kid can't or won't answer my question coherently.
Any capitalist who'd like to try for their side?
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
I'd just end up repeating myself from the other thread.
"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
That's why we've got copy'n'paste.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Most of the anti-capitalist commies love to do drive by threads like this using outragous claims. Once educated people disect their claims and start to prove them false they run for the hills and you don't see them talk about it for a few weeks.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
You're implying I'm a commie?
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
No, I'm implying most threads such as this are created by commies who can't back up their economic claims.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
I back up my claims plenty. Most of them are common sense. What I'm done with is arguing with unreasonable people.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
To me, value = Labor + Education
Nothing to see here, move along: http://selzlab.blogspot.com
The attempt to produce Heaven on Earth often produces Hell. -Karl Popper
Odin
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
It seems to me that most of economics is mostly pro-capitalist assumptions + mathematicsOriginally posted by Oerdin
No, I'm implying most threads such as this are created by commies who can't back up their economic claims.
Nothing to see here, move along: http://selzlab.blogspot.com
The attempt to produce Heaven on Earth often produces Hell. -Karl Popper
You do, however, seem to have serious problems with answering simple questions.Originally posted by Kidicious
I back up my claims plenty. Most of them are common sense. What I'm done with is arguing with unreasonable people.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
No one has to answer questions that lead them nowhere. Two reasonable people should be able to agree what value is within a given context. It doesn't matter what their ideology is. If they're reasonable there shouldn't be a problem.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Substitute "competative" for "free" and you have far more of a point. And surely in a competativbe market, price is equal to the value the marginal consumer has for that good. Since raising or lowering price changes who buys or does not buy, clearly value is a relative thing, and everyone does not have the same value for an item.Originally posted by Kidicious
So according to capitalists value is equal to price in a free market. So then if the cost of something goes up, and the price goes up then value has been created? Just the opposite is true. Value is created by decreasing costs.
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
Not quite. Economics can be done from any set of assumptions, and many people practice economics from far more socialist assumptions. The economics is the the application of those assumptions and that mathematical method or model to data to produce predictions. Most economists justify their assumptions using data from the real world, which I personally don't consider pro-capitalist or pro-communist? If in forensic policing it was found that 99% of criminals were white, in a multi-racial area, and thus used that as an assumption, were they supporting either side in a racism debate? No, they were just taking a statistic and using it as an assumption. Thus if an economist finds that 99% of the time, a fall in tax causes a boom in consumer spending, then they will use that assumption as part of their model. It's not supporting the pro-capitalist position, or any other, it's just taking a fact and using it without thinking of political considerations. The results of that model are then used to advise governments on policy.Originally posted by Odin
It seems to me that most of economics is mostly pro-capitalist assumptions + mathematics
With the absense of tests that have only one variable, as is possibly in much natural science, economics has to rely on reams of data and statistics to build plausible assumptions. Those assumptions are not pro-capitalist, pro-socialist or anything else, they're just whatever the bulk of the data seems to support. As Popper said when talking about science, the process of science is to take a theory, test it until it is proven false, and then come up with a new theory that fits all the data. This is the exact process economic assumptions are adapted, with the exception that because of it being a human science, and people being as unpredictable and complicated as they are, you can't isolate a variable, and thus you get some anomolous results. Thus the model that fits *the most* data is used.
Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - Kuciwalker
I'm perfectly willing, for the sake of the discussion, accept your definition of "value". What I'm asking is, what use is this concept of "value"?Originally posted by Kidicious
No one has to answer questions that lead them nowhere. Two reasonable people should be able to agree what value is within a given context. It doesn't matter what their ideology is. If they're reasonable there shouldn't be a problem.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
To get more of it. Value is good. I believe I said that, and then you started telling me that you don't accept my idea of value. It's not my idea. Give the credit to Adam Smith maybe, or probably someone who came before him. There is only one 'value' that is appropriate to the context of our discussion.Originally posted by Last Conformist
I'm perfectly willing, for the sake of the discussion, accept your definition of "value". What I'm asking is, what use is this concept of "value"?
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
You have a degree in econ, right? So you know what consumer surplus is, right? So tell us, what does a consumer get a surplus of?Originally posted by Drogue
Substitute "competative" for "free" and you have far more of a point. And surely in a competativbe market, price is equal to the value the marginal consumer has for that good. Since raising or lowering price changes who buys or does not buy, clearly value is a relative thing, and everyone does not have the same value for an item.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Data that they pick and choose.Originally posted by Drogue
Most economists justify their assumptions using data from the real world
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Originally posted by Kidicious
Data that they pick and choose.
Yes since in the realm of economics there is simply too much "data" out there to assess ALL of it at the same time. But I'm sure you wanted the choosing of data sets to analyze to seem much more sinister.
Some economists have hard wired agenda's, whether they be capitalist, communist or something else. But I'm betting that most economists are merely trying to understand better the data they see and any bias is unintentional.
Originally posted by Kidicious
To get more of it. Value is good.
Then join us on the capitalist side. Capitalism creates more value, more often than any other system.
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