I think there's an opposite attitude also present; blabling about "mysteries of Russian soul" and naivity when it comes to Moscow's politics
The EU, through the voice of Barroso (the President of the Commission) immediately congratulated Yushchenko, and congratulated a victory for democracy and fair elections. The EU's support for Yushchenko is as blatant as Russia's support for Yanukovych.Originally posted by lord of the mark
Spiff, how have the stances of the US and EU gone beyond whats justified by the OSCE observers, who you say you do trust as individuals?
I don't know if the US is as strongly involved as the EU or Russia in the victory of their candidate, but I would imagine the US is just as worthy of distrust as the other two.
Serb and Vag are at least consistent - they say the OSCE observers are liars. If they OSCE observers are NOT liars, how could the US and EU have taken different stances from what they did?
I know one OSCE observer, and I believe her not to be a liar. The thing is that what ONE observer individually says matters little. The organization as a whole is a different thing as individual observers: it gathers individual testimonies, and then make a "big picture" interpretation that is then the raw material for the media and the policy maker. I believe the OSCE (as an organization) to be pro-Yushchenko, although less markedly than the EU.
I understand you dont like the cold war sounding rhetoric from some of the superficial voices in the West - though I dont think you get that from ANYONE whos delved seriously into the matter.
The pro-Yushchenko propaganda is something I get from listening to the French media and from Euronews. Thanks to you OT people, I got to discover how manipulated and propagandistic my media is (it's excellent to see different perspectives), and I know the fact that propaganda follows the State's stance.
I agree it is true the cold-war talk is exaggerated. This election is not about whether Ukraine will become a vassal of Russia or a vassal of the EU. The new president will merely affect whether Ukraine leans more toward Russia or more toward the West. However, it is clearly a situation where Russian and Western interests collide, and where both sides try to promote their interests by meddling with local politics (meddling with the election). It's a common policy, but such manipulation deserves to be condemned nonetheless.
LOTM, you were rightly prone to condemn Putin heavy support for Yanukovych. Why are you so shy to condemn the West heavy (and obvious) support of Yushchenko?
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
I think there's an opposite attitude also present; blabling about "mysteries of Russian soul" and naivity when it comes to Moscow's politics
"I realise I hold the key to freedom,
I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
Middle East!
YuschenkoOriginally posted by Stefu
Since my thread would inevitably have the best title, it was my solemn duty to start this new one.
(Of course, in reality US of E would be a few provinces bigger, but we haven't got the new map yet so whatevs)
Yuschenko
Yanukovich
Freedom
Russian imperialism
Ted Striker
Yanukovich
Freedom, define this 'Freedom', Freedom to take? freedom to starve? Freedom to pollute? Freedom to be corrupt? If so, both sides support that anyway.
Russian imperialism
US imperialism
ps- Thread should be titled United States in Europe vs Russian Imperialism.
Freedom Doesn't March.
-I.
Ukraine is much more likely to become a de-facto EU dependency than a US one.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
This is partly thanks to you and SerbOriginally posted by The Vagabond
At last, a word of reason from a westerner.I don't think you guys are right on everything, far from it, but you know things that I don't, things that are certainly not broadly known in the West. And it excites my curiosity.
You guys prompted me to think about the Ukrainian situation without the propaganda-induced prejudices. Just like our Americans had me think about plenty of things US without prejudice, just like the Israelis has me think about plenty of things Israel etc.
It doesn't mean that I agree with you on all points (just like I often disagree with the Americans or the Israelis), but you and others have been eye openers.
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Hm, perhaps. Personally I hadn't thought Europe still had it in it. But I suppose there's no reason to believe Europe is incabable of taking the lead in running its very own puppet-projects.Originally posted by Last Conformist
Ukraine is much more likely to become a de-facto EU dependency than a US one.
Freedom Doesn't March.
-I.
Most American and Euros are clearly prejudiced against Russia. But at the same time, they may like us on a personal level, if they get to know us closely.Originally posted by lord of the mark
Most Americans like Russians - even during the cold war, I think most of us liked Russians as people. I dont think the Euros feel worse towards you.
Great. But unfortunately it is the goverment that decides.Plenty of Americans, BTW opposed bringing in the Visograd states to NATO, DESPITE a sense of historic obligation to them.
If your government thought the same...I see no real reason to bring Ukraine into NATO.
The irony is that if it was not for the phantom of NATO looming over the horizon, Russia would not feel the need to interfere so much into Ukrainian affairs.The more you guys go on the way you do about them,however, the more it seems like NOT bringing them into NATO is leaving them out in the cold.
Great. However, I should mention that as soon as the Baltics got into NATO, NATO planes started demonstratively patrolling the Russian border, often violating the Russian airspace, and thus causing quite an irritation in Russia.You will notice that there are not NATO bases in the Baltics. The discussion of NATO bases in eastern europe has focused on small bases, that would be no threat to Russia, or to its sphere of influence.
True. Another thing that can also be self-fulfilling is the villification campaign that is going on in western press and in western politics towards Russia. Only negative, nothing positive. This obviously pushes Russia away from democracy. But, I should mention, Russia and Russian society still somehow resist this enormous destructive pressure.Your paranoia MAY be sufficient to be self-fullfilling, but I doubt it.
True. But we still have the nukes. We are the only country that can destroy America. Are you sure the Americans will rest until this threat is eliminated? I somehow start to doubt this more and more.We have too many interests in common. And, sorry to say this, you arent that threatening to us anymore. We simply dont think about you as much as you do about us.
Freedom is just unawareness of being manipulated.
That's right. Nuke the bastards!
Various bits of the Balkans are already de facto EU protectorates.Originally posted by problem_child
Hm, perhaps. Personally I hadn't thought Europe still had it in it. But I suppose there's no reason to believe Europe is incabable of taking the lead in running its very own puppet-projects.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Actually, that's not true: France can destroy America, so can the UK. China has the ability to build plenty of nuclear weapons (I don't know about their delivery means). So, Russia shares the "honor" of being a nuclear threat with at least three countries, but these countries are extremely unlikely to attack the US.Originally posted by The Vagabond
True. But we still have the nukes. We are the only country that can destroy America. Are you sure the Americans will rest until this threat is eliminated? I somehow start to doubt this more and more.
The US has all interests to follow the same policy in Russia that what has worked with the others: make cooperation something much more interesting than rivalry or war. Although Bush did idiotically in this regard (thanks to his amazing incompetence), Clinton clearly did try to integrate Russia into cooperation with the New World Order.
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
France and UK are not in the list of the countries against whom US ready to use nukes first. On the other hand, Russia is in top five (first or second, after China) of the countries against whom US is ready to use nukes first in accordance with thier new pre-emptive military doctrine.
Yeah, you are absolutely right, LOTM- We aren't 'that threatening to you anymore. You simply dont think about us as much as we do about you'. Your military doctrine clearly demonstrates this.
Originally posted by Spiffor
This is partly thanks to you and Serb
You guys prompted me to think about the Ukrainian situation without the propaganda-induced prejudices. Just like our Americans had me think about plenty of things US without prejudice, just like the Israelis has me think about plenty of things Israel etc.
Of course. But if we sometimes come to an agreement over certain points, that feels great.It doesn't mean that I agree with you on all points (just like I often disagree with the Americans or the Israelis), but you and others have been eye openers.
Freedom is just unawareness of being manipulated.
Vagabond,
about 'defeat', here is the interesting article (sorry, our western friends, it's on monkey language):
http://www.pravaya.ru/govern/123/1732
How do you like this?
You ask me to waste hell knows how many hours to make a research for you? Who will pay for that study?Originally posted by lord of the mark
Source? That implies a GDP per capita of over 4 times as high in eastern Ukraine as in western.
Donetsk region alone is reponsible for 25% of Ukranian GDP. You have to believe me.
I think many Americans and Euros were inclined to give Russia the benefit of the doubt in its political journeys. However, Russia's political proclivities are reinforcing Western prejudices.Most American and Euros are clearly prejudiced against Russia.
Russia's recent political atmosphere feels decidely totalitarian. Under such an atmosphere, the West starts grasping to keep as many countries free as we can and to turn as many countries to freedom while there is still time. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see NATO attempt to extend its hand toward Ukraine in the next couple of years.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
It's also breaking up in two, even after the 175 yearsOriginally posted by Colon
They're saying Belgium is an artificial creation too. For almost 175 years already.
"post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
"I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller :b:
Good luck in your holy quest.Originally posted by DanS
I think many Americans and Euros were inclined to give Russia the benefit of the doubt in its political journeys. However, Russia's political proclivities are reinforcing Western prejudices.
Russia's recent political atmosphere feels decidely totalitarian. Under such an atmosphere, the West starts grasping to keep as many countries free as we can and to turn as many countries to freedom while there is still time.
Just a couple of pictures regarding Ukraine (the source of both figures is Statistic Commitee of Ukraine).
This is the structure of Ukranian import in 2003:
From top to bottom:Kazakhstan, China, USA, France, UK, Italy, Poland, Turkmenistan, Germany and Russia:
Last edited by Serb; December 27, 2004 at 18:22.
And this is the structure of Ukranian export in 2003:
From top to bottom: Swiss, Romania, USA, Hungary, Turkey, Poland, China, Germany, Italy and Russia:
Any questions?
Freeedom, my ass.
I've seen several Russian women whom I'd like to get to know on a very personal level.Originally posted by The Vagabond
Most American and Euros are clearly prejudiced against Russia. But at the same time, they may like us on a personal level, if they get to know us closely.
Unfortunately, I'm far away from them.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Russi is the most important trading partner of Ukraine.
And what?
"I realise I hold the key to freedom,
I cannot let my life be ruled by threads" The Web Frogs
Middle East!
France, UK and China can cause a significant damage to US, but not wipe it out completely. But Russia can. For example China has only about 20 nukes (or even less) that can reach only the western coast of the US. Russia has thousands (2000 at least).Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, that's not true: France can destroy America, so can the UK. China has the ability to build plenty of nuclear weapons (I don't know about their delivery means).
So, as you see, Russia possesses quite a huge share of this "honor".So, Russia shares the "honor" of being a nuclear threat with at least three countries, but these countries are extremely unlikely to attack the US.
It would be great if it worked. But that it worked with others does not guarantee that it will work with Russia. And the plausible reason is not just the inherent evil of the US or Russia, but rather the objective (i.e. existing beyond our will) laws of how the world functions.The US has all interests to follow the same policy in Russia that what has worked with the others: make cooperation something much more interesting than rivalry or war.
The fact is that thus far the US has been able to establish such kind of relations only with lesser powers. Can it do so with equal powers (and in terms of nukes and certain strategic issues, Russia is an equal power). For instance, can it do so with China when it grows into a superpower, or a confrontation is genuinely inevitable? This remains an open question.
I wouldn't say that Bush did here any worse than Clinton. On the contrary, two key events that turned around (drastically changed) Russia's perception of what was going on in the world happened under Clinton. These events are obviously the NATO expansion and the agression against Yugoslavia.Although Bush did idiotically in this regard (thanks to his amazing incompetence), Clinton clearly did try to integrate Russia into cooperation with the New World Order.
Freedom is just unawareness of being manipulated.
IIRC, the US is our biggest single trading partner. I guess we're an American dependency ...
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
We don't need tanks to bury the Ukraine. We can do it anytime via economy.Originally posted by Heresson
Russi is the most important trading partner of Ukraine.
And what?
Not least because the American response would destroy the attacker. Even a sneak attack would not get the nuclear ballistic submarines which are always rotated out at sea and which always had the ability to nuke both the USSR and China at the same time even if all of the nukes in the US itself were knocked out.Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, that's not true: France can destroy America, so can the UK. China has the ability to build plenty of nuclear weapons (I don't know about their delivery means). So, Russia shares the "honor" of being a nuclear threat with at least three countries, but these countries are extremely unlikely to attack the US.
This little problem weight heavily on the minds of Soviet military planners.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Hey man, this is DanS "The I-Cannot-Stand-European-Gloominess Uberuppermost Sunny Optimist" you're talking to. Especially regarding Russia. If he talks negatively about your state of affairs, you screwed up real badly.Originally posted by Serb
Good luck in your holy quest.
DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.
Not without heavily damaging your own economy in the process.Originally posted by Serb
We don't need tanks to bury the Ukraine. We can do it anytime via economy.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Just out of curiosity, how much of the Russian Federation's import/export is from/to Ukraine?Originally posted by Serb
We don't need tanks to bury the Ukraine. We can do it anytime via economy.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Couldn't resist.Originally posted by Colon
Hey man, this is DanS "The I-Cannot-Stand-European-Gloominess Uberuppermost Sunni Optimist" you're talking to.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
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