Paying for SPs @ 2 credits per mineral!

[Ned]

I have been rush-building SPs for some time by overpaying for an ordinary improvement and then switching to an SP. This allows one to build an SP in one turn for approximately the same cost as you would have to pay if you were above the 10% limit where mineral costs are reduced by half. The formula is (SP cost - 10 - base production - remaining minerals after switch) times 4.

Today, I built an SP for effectively two minerals each using this technique:

The base was building the SP and had 14 minerals accumulated. I switched to building an Aquafarm. I lost two mineral so I had 12 left. I then overpayed for the Xeno Dome by using the formula 300-12-9 (9 was the number the base produced) times 4, then swithced back to the Xeno Dome by double-clicking it in the build options list. The production switched back, and my minerals were "restored." This left me with approx. 576 minerals where I needed only 300.

Well, that means I overpayed. But the technique does indicate that the formula is only "times two" if one originally starts with the SP!

[Senethro]

Ewww, thats horrible, if I've understood whats happening correctly.

Is this a new thing? I've not heard of it before.

[Lazerus]

doesn't a base lose half switching from facility to SP? which in effect would mean you'd have to buy twice as many minerals at 2ec each and thus the project basically costs the same ?
been too long since i played, cant remember much ...

[Chaos Theory]

I have noticed that if you switch production, taking a penalty, and then switch back, you are refunded the penalty. I never used this feature except when about to pop a pod. Then, I can set the nearest base to produce something expensive, hope for a rush-buy pod, and if I don't get that, switch back for no overall penalty. It does make sense that the game would undo the penalty by multiplying your accumulated minerals, though.

[Maniac]

Neat discovery! Though doesn't upgrading crawlers allow you to get SPs for less than two credits per mineral?

[Chaos Theory]

Depending on your industry rating, you can't do much better than 2 EC/mineral by upgrading crawlers until fusion power.

[Blake]

Theres a fair few exploits along these lines.

I know exactly how to buy SP's, in one turn, starting with 0 stored minerals, at exactly 2 credits per mineral + 30 credits. But i'm not sure I should say how, because I suspect it could be exploited in multiplayer...

[Chaos Theory]

If you're suggesting what I think, it's just a composition of two other exploits, one sometimes allowed, and the one in this thread, which should never be allowed.

There are more serious exploits which are fairly difficult to detect. It's easy enough to cheat we have to trust our opponents.

[Blake]

Well for getting from 0 to 10 minerals just involves getting your industry to 0, then rushbuying a scout patrol to completion. (rush to completion doesn't set the "This base has already rushbuyed" flag). The other exploit is just a way to change production from anything to anything without losing minerals. I'm sure some other people know it.

[Ned]

Ugh! I reloaded the game just before the SP build and retried the trick. No matter what I did, I could not repeat it. Each time the game correctly said that if I switched back to the SP I would lose minerals.

If this was a transient bug, it was interesting.

[Blake]

Off the top of my head it should work in the following instances:
Easiest 2 difficulty levels.
Modified Scenario Options.
Modified alphax.txt
Scenario Editor Active.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Blake
Off the top of my head it should work in the following instances:
Easiest 2 difficulty levels.
Modified Scenario Options.
Modified alphax.txt
Scenario Editor Active.

Blake, what if one has a Skunkworks? IIRC, the switch to an SP still invokes the minerals message.

[Chaos Theory]

With the default alpha.txt or alphax.txt, Skunkworks has the undocumented effect of allowing switches from facility to facility or unit to unit without losing minerals. This should not affect the SP build exploit described here.

[Commy]

Isn't everything undocumented in SMAC. The question is, did the creators just FORGET to document it, or is it just an unnoticed mistake...

[Ned]

Commy, well the most important feature of Alpha Centauri is undocumented: clean minerals. I, Blake and one other worked hard on figuring out how to affect clean minerals. We wrote a piece on it that is published here on Apolyton.

Back to the topic, well it happened one more time for me, but only once. The effect seems sporatic, but that may be an illusion. Most of the time, the game does require you to lose minerals when switching to the SP. But not always.

Regardless, this clearly would be a cheat if we could figure out how to build SP's in one turn with a cost of two ec's.

[Googlie]

It doesn't work if the alpha(x).txt is set to (instead of its default 2:

25, ; Combat % -> Defend in range of friendly Sensor
10, ; Combat % -> Psi attack bonus/penalty per +PLANET
50, ; Retool percent penalty for production change
3, ; Retool strictness (0 = Always Free, 1 = Free in Category, 2 = Free if Project, 3 = Never Free)
10, ; Retool exemption (first X minerals not affected by penalty)
20, ; Minimum # of turns between councils

[Chaos Theory]

I've heard that a value of 3 there acts the same as a value of 2, but never tested it.

[Commy]

Yo, Chaos Theory, what is the blue 'supporter' thingy for?

[Chaos Theory]

http://apolyton.net/members/

[Blake]

Ah what the hell. I'll describe the generic method of switching production without losing minerals and with disregard to prerequisites - orbitals without aerospace, tachyon defense without perimeter, ships in landlocked bases, north without south.... erm, not the last one.

This example will involve building an aquafarm in a landlocked base.

Select any old base which has 0-10 stored minerals, and can build what you want to switch to. (ie a sea/coastal base for aquafarm)
Set the current built to aquafarm.
Set the first item in the queue to anything - it doesn't matter. This is just a voodoo ritual so the queue can be saved (empty queues can not be saved).
Save the queue (right click on the queue, choose "Save current list into template")

Go to the landlocked base.
Load the saved queue
Close the base screen then open it again. (Another voodoo ritual to make it update the current build as well as the queue)
The Aquafarm will now be the current build. Optionally delete the queued build(s).

So really, the trick is simply that when you save and load queues, the current build also goes with the queue. Then there are the two rituals to make it work properly, and the bug whereby you don't lose production when you should.

I do tend to use this to get sea-builds in landlocked bases, and tachyon before perimeter (making tachyon the first build at new base)... but I don't exploit it for free production changes. Of course it is a cheat, but it can also be used as a kind of loophole to achieve things that can be done in other, legal, ways. Like you can get ships in a landlocked base through solar shade or raise terrain or that teleporter thing, you can have tachyon without perimeter by selling the perimeter.
In some cases it doesn't seem to go against the spirit of the rules - building ships and naval yards in a landlocked base is prohibited because it's pointless or silly, rather than exploitive, but you might legitimately want naval yards in your landlocked bases because of predicted sea level rises. In other cases it obviously is breaking the rules, like launching orbitals without aerospace and free production changes.
Another “pointless” use is saving an early SP to a queue, the SP then gets completed but you can still load that queue any time you want to stockpile production for a future SP… obviously only useful in quite specific cases, but I’ve used it at least once, probably as Hive on some double blind research settings. One example would be saving production for the VW, the ME is the only un-built SP, but you don’t want to “accidentally” complete it – ideally you want to have enough production stockpiled to complete the VW the turn you get plan.nets but this would involve completing the ME. Luckily you previously saved another SP (say HGP) to a queue and that has been built already, so you load the HGP queue into the SP base, and can safely stockpile.
Bugged Queues… fun things to play with.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Blake
Ah what the hell. I'll describe the generic method of switching production without losing minerals and with disregard to prerequisites - orbitals without aerospace, tachyon defense without perimeter, ships in landlocked bases, north without south.... erm, not the last one.

This example will involve building an aquafarm in a landlocked base.

Select any old base which has 0-10 stored minerals, and can build what you want to switch to. (ie a sea/coastal base for aquafarm)
Set the current built to aquafarm.
Set the first item in the queue to anything - it doesn't matter. This is just a voodoo ritual so the queue can be saved (empty queues can not be saved).
Save the queue (right click on the queue, choose "Save current list into template")

Go to the landlocked base.
Load the saved queue
Close the base screen then open it again. (Another voodoo ritual to make it update the current build as well as the queue)
The Aquafarm will now be the current build. Optionally delete the queued build(s).

So really, the trick is simply that when you save and load queues, the current build also goes with the queue. Then there are the two rituals to make it work properly, and the bug whereby you don't lose production when you should.

I do tend to use this to get sea-builds in landlocked bases, and tachyon before perimeter (making tachyon the first build at new base)... but I don't exploit it for free production changes. Of course it is a cheat, but it can also be used as a kind of loophole to achieve things that can be done in other, legal, ways. Like you can get ships in a landlocked base through solar shade or raise terrain or that teleporter thing, you can have tachyon without perimeter by selling the perimeter.
In some cases it doesn't seem to go against the spirit of the rules - building ships and naval yards in a landlocked base is prohibited because it's pointless or silly, rather than exploitive, but you might legitimately want naval yards in your landlocked bases because of predicted sea level rises. In other cases it obviously is breaking the rules, like launching orbitals without aerospace and free production changes.
Another “pointless” use is saving an early SP to a queue, the SP then gets completed but you can still load that queue any time you want to stockpile production for a future SP… obviously only useful in quite specific cases, but I’ve used it at least once, probably as Hive on some double blind research settings. One example would be saving production for the VW, the ME is the only un-built SP, but you don’t want to “accidentally” complete it – ideally you want to have enough production stockpiled to complete the VW the turn you get plan.nets but this would involve completing the ME. Luckily you previously saved another SP (say HGP) to a queue and that has been built already, so you load the HGP queue into the SP base, and can safely stockpile.
Bugged Queues… fun things to play with.

Blake, you are a wonder. Really.

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Blake
.....tachyon defense without perimeter.....

Why would you want to build a tachyon before a perimeter defense?

[Chaos Theory]

Tachyon fields defend against land, sea, and air all at once. Perimeter defenses only work against land.

[livid imp]

That would be a good reason. So is it completely pointless to put a PD on a sea base?

[Maniac]

Certainly not! Perimeter defences defend against amphibious attacks.

[Ned]

Blake, I tried it out and it works like a charm. Switching production using your method of loading a queue, closing, and then reopening causes no loss of minerals. While one can use this to rush-build SPs at 2 ec's per mineral, I assume one could also rush-build units and prototypes just as well.

Just in case no one else has noticed, switching production from the F4 screen by turning on the governor also results in no loss of minerals. I also think this happens when a governor is managing a base in general, as a I have noticed more than 10 minerals left when a governor completes an improvement and there were more than 10 extra minerals.

[Commy]

And then there's the old scenario editor...

Man, if you could just somehow get rid of the flag that says you cheated...