Turkey got a date from the EU!

[Dracon II]

That is the problem... there hasn't been a united christendom since the 1500's... and since then Europe has defined itself by many different things, race, politics, economics, civilization etc... nothing really cuts it anymore because European political-economic culture has been essentially assimilated into the world system. And geographically speaking it is difficult too... you would have to draw an arbitary line through Russia (or perhaps the historical limits of Muscovy provide a guideline).
Turkey I guess does have a right.... it's ancient cities were some of the original breeding grounds of Christian thought... and going back further it has been Greek and Roman. In the medieval period it still played a major part in European affairs, albeit as an outsider (though there have been situations where it has worked with European powers, like with France against the Habsburgs or with Germany against the entente cordiale). Perhaps my previous comments were a bit too hasty.

[Dracon II]

Membership has to be geographically, and not culturally determined... otherwise why shouldn't Australia and New Zealand, or even the USA be members? We have far more in common culturally with Europe than Turkey does. But in geographical terms Turkey has a stronger claim (obviously).

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well there is still the fantasy goal of the EU being a superstate (a weak one, at least). In order for anything like that to happen, there should be a contiguous geographic area controled by the supranational body.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Two explanations for France's opposition, one nobler than the other:

1) Turkey's sheer size gives France pause. In the EU, the prosperous countries are big, and the poor countries that have been admitted over teh years (Greece, Ireland, Portugal) are all relatively small. Thus, admitting new countries has always had a whiff of noblesse oblige about it. Turkey, however, is not some piddling little country; its up there with France and Germany in its population, and might just be uppity enough to point that out. I thing teh French find that intimidating and irritating.

2) France, more than any other country in the EU (including the UK), has set itself up as the guardian of "European ideals" -- roughly speaking, Enlightenment democratic thought. That's a good thing; anybody who wants to champion the Enlightenment is tops in my book. And the problem is, Turkey really isn't on board, yet, with the whole Enlightenment thing -- they really don't get democracy, or human rights, or the rule of law. France knows this, and is very rightly suspicious.

Good enough a summary.

If you look at the history of the Turkish republic, the primary idea of its founders was to modernise the country not only economically and also politically and socially too. Modernisation in fact, was seen as a comprehensive social project, ultimately aiming to change the world perspective of the whole society. In so far as Enlightenment can be considered as part of social and political modernisation, Turkey for the past 80 years has been trying to make ideas/ideals of Enlightenment applicable, with ups and downs and varying degrees of success.

From that perspective, membership in the EU is the next and logical step for Turkey, one that has increased the pace of reform and one that would give external support to the idea that values of Enlightenment and modernity are universally applicable.

Hence the vivid support of the army (the praetors of the "ideals of the republic") for EU membership. That's also why there's almost no discussion in Turkey about whether the EU membership is good for Turkish economy, or whether surrendering so much power to Brussels is a good idea.

So why are my guys dancing above. Because I think Turkey would be open to the Enlightenment, if someone would just impose it upon them. The EU will, and Turks will be happier for it.

In short: those who think Turkey will change the EU are likely to be wrong; those who think the EU will change Turkey are likely to be right. Everybody dance!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Turkey

(I'm 1/4th Turkish )

[Ted Striker]

A potpourri of Turkish PWNAGE:


Stand by we are experiencing technical difficulties.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Try again Ted... I get non-pictures.

[Ted Striker]

Damn Tripod!!!!!

I'll come up with a workaround.

I'd like to get a date with:

[Ted Striker]

[Ted Striker]

[Ted Striker]

[Ted Striker]

[Ted Striker]

[Ted Striker]

After presenting the evidence, the only conclusion one could make is that Turkish women PWN.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Good man,

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Dracon II
So Europe doesn't see itself as a geographical area?

The division between Europe and Asia in Eurasia is fairly arbitrary from the geological perspective. Much of Sicily and Malta lie on the African tectonic plate.

Hell, there are bits of the North and South Americas that are part of the European Union now.

Europe the Continent and Europe the Union are quite distinct.

As far as I knew the only part of Turkey in Europe was the peninsula on the west side of istanbul.... but maybe Asia minor counts as Europe now...

Zeus likes threesomes.

How far are you going to go? Russia? Israel? Azerbaijan? What is Europe anyway?

A united Russia will never join the EU, even though most Russian cities are in geographical Europe. They think of themselves as European. Mumble mumble Peter the Great mumble mumble. Mumble mumble balance of power mumble mumble.

Israel is a long-term prospect. They'd need to make a few minimal reforms to join, but without Turkey they don't really fit.

I mean sure... Turkey is in NATO, they play football and they did own a substantial part of Europe for several centuries... but are they really European? What does "European" mean anymore?

Having between 1.9 and 3 arms. No more than five eyes. Flippers or gills, but not both. A hyena in every garage.

Originally posted by Dracon II
That is the problem... there hasn't been a united christendom since the 1500's...

Say what? The Papacy -- even pre-Reformation Papacy -- didn't wield that sort of temporal power, and it never ruled over the extant independent Christian states of Russia and Abyssinia.

[Ancyrean]

Ted Striker

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Turkey

(I'm 1/4th Turkish )

I like turkey sandwhiches. does that count?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
Ted Striker

Can you get me Deniz's number?

[laurentius]

I would vote "No" also. Maybe later when Turkey has dealt with its problems I would vote "Yes"

Its sad that some people who oppose as well as people accusing people that oppose Turkeys membership reason that Turkey is feared because its sheer size and the fact that Turks are muslims. Maybe this is the reason to some right-wing christians, but not everyone thinks so. I certainly dont.

For me the reasons why Turkey should not be for a while are the following:

1) Turkeys military still overlooks its government. Military juntas, even if semi have no future in EU.

2) Turkey has huge human rights issues. The state is officially monocultural despite the fact that millions of Kurds live in the Eastern parts of the country. A whole people are denied from using their language freely and to their cultural self-esteem. There are reports of torture coming up on a regular basis. And forced marriages are still a huge problem.

3) Turkeys freedom of speech is a joke. Non mainstream Turkish media and things considered "harmful" by the military are silenced. Human rights organizations have pictures of activists who have been clubbed to death by the authorities on their walls.

4) The haunting past. Turkey has some nasty skeletons in its closet. The Armenian genocide is still unrecognised. The deal with the Cyprus is still unsettled.

5) Turkey is culturally definately not European and does not (yet) share European values. For example Turkish nations accross the ME have a tendency of worshipping their leaders. In other Turkish states people worship their authoritarian presidents like Turkmenistans "Tukmenbashi". in Turkey people worship General Ataturk. I myself think its just the nature of their culture. How would you like to see the Russians worshipping Stalin or the Spanish Gen. Franco? Perhaps you'd feel good if the Germans would worship Hitler because he "restored the national pride and unity". I think its disgusting, and doesnt belong to the modern EU.

Other issues include forced marriages as mentioned before, womens rights, gay rights, war-resisters rights, minority oppression...
There are tons of issues Turks got to deal with, in my opinion starting negotiations now is just premature.

6) Turkey has terrorism. The lack of democracy and freedom of speech in the form of banning islamic parties is making some people frustrated and radicalised. The results are seen as bombing of both Western and domestic targets. Turkeys membership opens the borders for these radicalised islamists as well as normal people.



These are the main reasons I came up with. Again I have nothing against Turkey as a populous or a muslim state. I would like to see Tunisia, Israel or even Lebanon joining the union if they sort their problems out too. The thing just is that EU has to have some standards. We arent negotiating with Belarussia or Russia either. I guess that makes us anti-orthodox to some people.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by laurentius
1) Turkeys military still overlooks its government. Military juntas, even if semi have no future in EU.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

2) Turkey has huge human rights issues. The state is officially monocultural despite the fact that millions of Kurds live in the Eastern parts of the country. A whole people are denied from using their language freely and to their cultural self-esteem. There are reports of torture coming up on a regular basis. And forced marriages are still a huge problem.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

3) Turkeys freedom of speech is a joke. Non mainstream Turkish media and things considered "harmful" by the military are silenced. Human rights organizations have pictures of activists who have been clubbed to death by the authorities on their walls.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

4) The haunting past. Turkey has some nasty skeletons in its closet. The Armenian genocide is still unrecognised. The deal with the Cyprus is still unsettled.

Nothing in Turkey's past is even remotely as horiffic as the atrocities of Belgian Congo, and Brussels is frickin' EU headquarters! And the French weren't exactly hosting a series of picnics in West Africa. A "haunted past" is the legacy of any nation that's played a role on the world stage. Draw whatever conclusions you like about Finland.

5) Turkey is culturally definately not European and does not (yet) share European values. For example Turkish nations accross the ME have a tendency of worshipping their leaders. In other Turkish states people worship their authoritarian presidents like Turkmenistans "Tukmenbashi". in Turkey people worship General Ataturk. I myself think its just the nature of their culture. How would you like to see the Russians worshipping Stalin or the Spanish Gen. Franco? Perhaps you'd feel good if the Germans would worship Hitler because he "restored the national pride and unity". I think its disgusting, and doesnt belong to the modern EU.

Ataturk is not teh equivalent of Hitler or Stalin. If anything, he's teh equivalent of George Washington or Simon Bolivar. That no EU nation has produced such a figure in modern history says more about Europe than it does about Turkey.

Other issues include forced marriages as mentioned before, womens rights, gay rights, war-resisters rights, minority oppression...
There are tons of issues Turks got to deal with, in my opinion starting negotiations now is just premature.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

6) Turkey has terrorism. The lack of democracy and freedom of speech in the form of banning islamic parties is making some people frustrated and radicalised. The results are seen as bombing of both Western and domestic targets. Turkeys membership opens the borders for these radicalised islamists as well as normal people.

Spain suffers more greatly from terrorism than does Turkey. The same could be said, until very recently, about Great Britain and Ireland. Would you throw them out?

[Dracon II]

Spain suffers more greatly from terrorism than does Turkey. The same could be said, until very recently, about Great Britain and Ireland. Would you throw them out?

Yes Rufus, but they're our terrorists. He was talking about Middle eastern terrorists.

[Gangerolf]

So what's going to happen now? 15 years of negotiations and then 20-odd referendums? I reckon most of them would produce a "no" vote.

Why should Turkey be let in? What's in it for me

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
In short: those who think Turkey will change the EU are likely to be wrong; those who think the EU will change Turkey are likely to be right. Everybody dance!

Well said. In this case

Seriously, I'm a bit disappointed that many Euros only see the risks (which are without doubt existent, but there are also risks if Turkey does not become a member) but not the chances that come with Turkey in the EU. I think most of the problems that cause concerns in Europe today can be solved. Some of them are also interconnected - eg. when Turkey advances in human rights issues, and when its economy developes in the coming years, a large wave of Turkish immigrants into "older" EU states becomes less likely.

Overall I'm mildly optimistic. I don't think there should be an automatism pro Turkey, but they should have a fair chance when they meet the standards.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

I disagree. Turkey has to modernize before it should be admitted to the EU.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

I disagree. Turkey has to modernize before it should be admitted to the EU.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

I disagree. Turkey has to modernize before it should be admitted to the EU.

Nothing in Turkey's past is even remotely as horiffic as the atrocities of Belgian Congo, and Brussels is frickin' EU headquarters! And the French weren't exactly hosting a series of picnics in West Africa. A "haunted past" is the legacy of any nation that's played a role on the world stage. Draw whatever conclusions you like about Finland.

This is not about Belgium or France its about you.

Those nations have proved themselves you havent. Most "western" or "modern" or "developed" nation have dealt with their past. There are no conclusion to be drawn about Finland. We have dealt with our civil war past.

Ataturk is not teh equivalent of Hitler or Stalin. If anything, he's teh equivalent of George Washington or Simon Bolivar. That no EU nation has produced such a figure in modern history says more about Europe than it does about Turkey.

I didnt know George Washington was a military dictator. You say EU nations havent producer military dictators? Sure they have, remember Mussolini, Franco, Hitler...? Or nation builders? Oh we've got plenty. Great Generals perhaps? Germans had about dozen greater in WW2. That is if you mean those by your "such figure". But if you mean people who are openly being worshipped even after their death, the answer is no.

Instead of having all those lessons about the life of your Father Ataturk, perhaps you should have some real history lessons instead.

This is true. But the best way to change it is to admit Turkey to the EU.

I disagree. Turkey has to modernize before it should be admitted to the EU.

Spain suffers more greatly from terrorism than does Turkey. The same could be said, until very recently, about Great Britain and Ireland. Would you throw them out?

No, because they dont force their muslims to go radical.

[Drogue]

I'm undecided. Admitting poorer countries means the net outflow of money from richer nations to the EU becomes larger, as poorer countries get more. Moreover, being a poorer country, they have lower wages and prices and thus produce goods cheaper, further harming our balance of payments deficit. Thus, for a richer country, on economic reasons, this isn't a good thing. However, from an overall perspective, free trade areas being enlarged means the country admitted can grow quicker and have access to more markets. It brings more competition and over the long term, equality through competition (equality between countries). Adding Turkey would help them greatly, but would have an adverse affect on the UK, France and Germany, economically. So I'm in two minds. If I was to decide if Britain votes for them to join, I'd vote no. It's clearly against Britain's interests. If I was to vote on whether it's theoretically a good idea, I'd vote yes, as it's clearly in the world's interest.

That's presuming their attitude towards the Kurds improves, the military loses political power and they begin to accept EU ideas of democracy and the rule of law.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by laurentius
I would vote "No" also. Maybe later when Turkey has dealt with its problems I would vote "Yes"

Um, isn't it obvious that Turkey will only become a member when they actually meet the requirements?

Even if the entire EU would vote 100% for Turkey's entrance, they would only be allowed in when their human rights record is cleared, when they recognize Cyprus, when the influence of the military is dealt with, when the economy is up to par etc. Just like with any other aspiring member.

Why is it that everyone is so vehemently against Turkey when the other countries trying to enter also do not yet meet all requirements? Why the hell do we even have those damn referenda? I just don't see it.

So of course, they aren't ready for entry now. But I would expect that even if all the negotiations would go flawlessly, Turkey wouldn't enter until 2015 at the very earliest.

I thought those referenda were about whether we should allow Turkey in ever, not whether to let them in right now. Saying "no" to that would be a big mistake.

So, a resounding "yes" for the Turkish entry here.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
Actually, that's a source of great puzzlement in Turkey, people are asking "what the hell's wrong with them??" and even the francophile Turks have been having a hard time in coming up with an explanation.

Heck, I have a hard time coming to an explanation myself.

First, there are the people who simply dislike Muslims. When the far-right amounts to 20% here, this is not an insignificant minority. Besides, the adhesion of Turkey would mean many immigrants indeed, and thus many people who are not necessarily racists fear it, cause it threatens their job. The same people are against the last wave of enlargement, which is blamed for the departure of many factories.

Second, there are people who don't consider Turkey to be in Europe, geographically speaking. It may sound absurd, but all French people were taught since school how Europe looks like. And on the map, Asia pretty clearly begins at Istanbul. This geographic consideration also implies the "where will Europe stop?" question. Dracon in his first post has expressed the point clearly enough.

Then, there are the people who think the EU needs a common culture, which obviously stems from Christianty One could think this opinion is probably held not as strongly in France than in other EU countries (because we have an extreme relationship toward separation of Church and State), but the French public opinion is also one of the most enthusiastic for the creation of a EU "bloc", which would require a common culture

There are other factors which may weight, like the fear of Turkey's size, the fear that Turkey changes the EU, the opinion that Turkey cannot be ready before an extremely long time etc. But I think these factors don't affect the mass of people much.

Now, keep in mind this can be entirely false. As I said, I have trouble understanding the refusal of Turkey myself. But from the little I gathered, I think those are the main reasons. In France as in other countries.

[axi]

It seems that the only ones who will benefit from EU entry will be, as it happened with all previous entries, the European and Turkish capitalists.

[Arrian]

Turkey got a date from the EU!

"Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul..."