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  • The federal government was set up to be a federation of sovereigns, I agree with PLATO there... but you know what? It stopped being that in 1865, and by now the intent of the framers of the constitution is so alien to our current system as to be unthinkable.

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    • There are a few ammendments you need to repeal before going after something so trivial as this.
      I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
      For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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      • Originally posted by Kuciwalker
        The federal government was set up to be a federation of sovereigns, I agree with PLATO there... but you know what? It stopped being that in 1865, and by now the intent of the framers of the constitution is so alien to our current system as to be unthinkable.
        While the Civil war did radically degrade the power of the States, I believe that it is important that it not be degraded further. I continually argue for a strict constructionsist point of view for the Constitution, but I fear that argument falls on deaf ears. The responses that I continually get are "uh...the court helld this here and the court held this there" as counters to my arguments. People simply don't realize that thes holdings are usually judicial legislation that enhances the federal governments power at the expense of the States. IMO, this was not the original intent of the founders, nor is it what's in the best interest of the Union.
        "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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        • Originally posted by PLATO


          While the Civil war did radically degrade the power of the States, I believe that it is important that it not be degraded further. I continually argue for a strict constructionsist point of view for the Constitution, but I fear that argument falls on deaf ears. The responses that I continually get are "uh...the court helld this here and the court held this there" as counters to my arguments. People simply don't realize that thes holdings are usually judicial legislation that enhances the federal governments power at the expense of the States. IMO, this was not the original intent of the founders, nor is it what's in the best interest of the Union.
          Plato, the major problem with States Rights is that it is closely associated with segregation. It is now being used to deny "gays" whatever rights a particular state might give them. The one thing Sharpton said during the election that I agreed with is that this gay-rights issue is not a matter that SHOULD be decided by states. In this, he broke sharply with Kerry and Edwards, and Sharpton was right and Kerry and Edwards were wrong.
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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          • Originally posted by Ned


            Plato, the major problem with States Rights is that it is closely associated with segregation. It is now being used to deny "gays" whatever rights a particular state might give them. The one thing Sharpton said during the election that I agreed with is that this gay-rights issue is not a matter that SHOULD be decided by states. In this, he broke sharply with Kerry and Edwards, and Sharpton was right and Kerry and Edwards were wrong.
            The Federal government has the ability to trump any State's attempt at segregation if they wanted to. State's rights is NOT about segregation. It is about giving equal protection for regional issues to the States. For example, The Colorado river could be totally dominated by the large population of southern California and the people of Colorado and Arizona left out in the cold if it wasn't for their respective State governments standing up for their rights.
            "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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            • Originally posted by PLATO
              You keep forgetting the soveriegn nature of the States.
              Guess what? Don't give a ****. The people should be sovreign, not the artificial entities we call states. Without us the states do not exist. I am not a Floridian. I am not an Illinoisian. I am an American. I am an American whether I live in Florida, Illinois, or Wyoming. Why, in the 21st Century, should I be penalized for not living in a small state because over two hundred years ago they needed to compromise to create the country? The country is created. The people who lived two hundred years ago are dead. And it is unAmerican that a Wyoman has more say in chosing the President than I do simply because no one wants to live there.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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              • States rights are antidemocratic. No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens, only to screw them.
                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                  States rights are antidemocratic. No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens, only to screw them.
                  As the example I pointed out above so clearly disproves. Land use and water rights are two very important ways that States protect their citizens rights.
                  "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                  • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                    States rights are antidemocratic. No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens, only to screw them.
                    I think Wraith just gave a good example of where States stood up for the rights of their citizens.

                    However, on the whole, States Rights has been used to deny people equal protection.
                    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                    • In waht ways does states rights protect land use? Water rights could just as easily be solved at a Federal level, where regional powers like California can't dominate their smaller neighbors.

                      Anyway, why should Colorado or Arizona have more right to the water? One out of every ten Americans lives in California. It would be better used there than watering lawns in the freakin' desert.
                      Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                      • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                        I am not a Floridian. I am not an Illinoisian. I am an American.
                        che's quote from another thread:

                        It's in the 60s here and I have all my windows wide open. Of course, as a Floridian, I'm also wearing a parka . . .
                        So which is it Mr. Kerry?
                        "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                        • Originally posted by chegitz guevara
                          In waht ways does states rights protect land use? Water rights could just as easily be solved at a Federal level, where regional powers like California can't dominate their smaller neighbors.

                          Anyway, why should Colorado or Arizona have more right to the water? One out of every ten Americans lives in California. It would be better used there than watering lawns in the freakin' desert.
                          They have a right to the water because it should run by their front door.

                          In your post you inherently recognize the differences between California, Colorado, and Arizona.
                          "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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                          • I'm a Floridian in that I live in Florida. I do not consider my self identity to be a Floridian in the way I consider myself to be an American. It used to be people were Virginians before they were Americans. States are where we live, not who were are.
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                            • --"I think Wraith just gave a good example of where States stood up for the rights of their citizens."

                              Have I even posted in this thread before now? ^_^

                              Wraith
                              "What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter."
                              -- Mr. von Lipwig ("Going Postal")

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                              • Originally posted by PLATO
                                They have a right to the water because it should run by their front door.
                                I said more right to it. They should have an equal right to it. That water would be more use to all of us irrigating California's crops, though I'd rather see it flowing into the Sea of Cortez so the environment there doesn't get screwed up (the Colorado doesn't reach the sea anymore).
                                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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