It would be really helpful to get some feedback on which cultures we should represent, since JohnMcd will also model the unit icons based on culture. Any suggestions (see previous post...)
Map Graphics
I'm starting a new thread on map graphics to pick up where we left off last week in the previous (doomed) thread. We'll try to limit the discussion in this thread to the map graphics, and JohnMcd (or whoever adresses the topic first) can start a new one on unit graphics. Safety in diversity, I say! (Not to mention clarity)
[Edit 3/17/01 by Mark]
The previous thread that Paul mentions is the old Graphics Thread that the BB software ate! A backup copy now graces our web site. It has a lot of good ideas on where we should go for both the map and unit graphics in Clash, although nothing final has been decided on most issues. This current thread will make more sense to you if you at least skim the old Graphics Thread first. If you want to talk about unit graphics, this thread is not the right place. You should go to the Unit Graphics thread.
Let's get these vital graphics specifications discussions going again!
[/Edit]
To refresh everyone, here is my intial proposal for the tiles. I took note of Mark's suggestion for alternative road tiles to add some variety to the map. While that means an additional 32 tiles, they should be relatively easy to draw as compared to some of the others:
File Format: TIFF (may want to change this to GIF89A)
Maximum file size:?
Palette: Civilization II palette with modifications (256 colors?)
Isometric (diamond) tiles (width to height ratio of 2:1), 3 preset scales
(drawn at that specific scale) and ability to allow user-defined scaling:
· 120 pixels (width)
· 80 pixels
· 20 pixels
Tiles should be created so that they overlap slightly when drawn from
right to left, top to bottom.
Tiles will also be layered to provide ability to modify terrain with
improvements (roads, cities, fortifications, etc):
· layer 1 = base terrain layer
· layer 2 = rivers
· layer 3 = improvements 1 (ancient/medieval)
· layer 4 = improvements 2 (modern)
· layer 5 = cities
Current plans estimate 154-168 total tiles.
List of Base Tiles (24+), by climate (multiple tile styles indicated in
parentheses, climate indicated in CAPS)
ARCTIC
Glacier
Snowpack
BOREAL
Tundra
Boreal forest
Bog
TEMPERATE
Forest (3)
Plains
Grasslands
Swamp
Desert
TROPICAL(includes sub-tropical/neo-tropical)
Rainforest (3)
Savanna
Swamp
Desert
UNIFORM(doesn't vary much in appearance between climates)
High Mountains
Low Mountains
Hills, green
Hills, arid
Hills, rocky
Ocean
Coastal (4-10)
*Rivers (?)
*Rivers will be displayed over the base layer, as a separate layer
List of Improvements Layers (88)
ANCIENT
Roads, flat (16)
Roads, hills (16)
Roads, mountains (8)
Irrigation (2)
Mines (2)
Terraces (2)
MODERN
Roads, flat (16)
Roads, hills (16)
Roads, mountains (8)
Irrigation (2)
List of Cities Layer (42)
ANCIENT
Cities (3 styles for each culture)
Fortresses (2)
MEDIEVAL
Cities (3 styles for each culture)
Fortresses (2)
MODERN
Cities (3 styles for each culture)
Fortresses (2)
LIST OF CULTURES FOR CITIES
Occidental
Oriental
Middle Eastern
Neo-American
[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 17, 2001).]
It would be really helpful to get some feedback on which cultures we should represent, since JohnMcd will also model the unit icons based on culture. Any suggestions (see previous post...)
Me and rich are discussing the various types of cultures which will affect map graphics for cities and such. Right now we've got about 10-12 for anceint and about 8-10 modern. This needed to be posted here but we've been discuessing mainly because we need to see how cultures will impact the tech tree. Both of us thought that limiting it to 4 like in Civ2 was way too few.
Now on to the details. There should be a deep ocean and reef type areas.
Thanks for the ocean ideas...it would definitely be a nice addition. Would there be another reason for reefs, aside from aesthetics (good to know this since it may affect the map generator model)? I know that people had mentioned subs before, but reef locations are more of a tactical consideration as opposed to a strategic concern (which is our design standard).
We'll need to limit the number of cultures, at least initially, since it dramatically increases the #'s of tiles and icons we'll need to produce. Since they'll be drawn as GIF's and TIF's, we can always leave it open to the player to expand on the "basic" set that we provide in the release version of Clash. We can maybe accomodate 5-6 cultures, but that would be pressing it, given our current staff size in the artist dept (just me and JohnMcD!). If we were to get more artists and have them devote their work soley on additional cultural tiles and icons, we can gladly implement them! I'd personally LOVE to see 12 cultures represented, but I just don't have the time to draw 504 tiles IN ADDITION to the basic terrain tiles(100+).
If there ARE any aspiring artists out there, please contact me, so we can work towards this goal BEFORE starting on some tiles, so that we can coordinate and avoid duplication of work. Now hiring
LGJ: Could you please list the 24+ cultures that you are considering? I think that we may be able to combine several of them for display purposes (you could still keep them separate for the tech models, etc). I'm nost assuming that the following example is one of yours - it's just an example to illustrate what I'm talking about: Latin and Germanic would both be combined into Occidental. I realize there are difference between the two, but as you said in the character thread - you could just give them different names
On Coral Reefs
Two points about coral reefs first they could either be used as trade, of fishing, and also don't they help decrease the damage done by storms.
Also Graphicswise couldnt you just implemet it in stages say first just one forest picture etc.
Paul, my friend John Gooch is helping me with the unit icons now, I thought I mailed you about it but I seem not to have during the confusion over the death of a thread
.
On cultures to use, I'd go with European, Oriental, Middle-Eastern/Indian, and after that whatever there is time for... I know it's kind of a cop-out, but covering the world and history at any level of detail is, as Paul said, prohibitive.
Ancient
-------
American Natives
African Natives
Pacific Islanders
Northern European (Vikings, Scandinavians, Germanic Tribes)
Southern European (Greek, Roman, Feudal System)
Arab (Pre-Islamic)
Eurasian Tribes (Mongols, Scythians)
Southeast Asia
India
China/Japan
Medevil (* means graphics can be same as mentioned ancient culture)
--------
* North American Natives (Native Americans)
South American Natives
* African Natives (African Natives)
* Pacific Islanders (Pacific Islanders)
Western Europe
Eastern Europe
Arab (post-Islamic)
* Southeast Asia (Southeast Asia)
India
China/Japan
Modern
------
Central/South Afria
West Europe/US/Canada
Central/Southern Americas
Pacific Islanders
East Europe/Former Soviet Union
Arab/Sahara
Southeast Asia
India
China
Japan
Future ? (These will need to be implimted since some people will like me have far future techs, though not right away).
--------
Arab/Sahara
China/SE Asia
India
Europe/US/Canada
Japan
The last section is based on how i see things developing culturally right now. I doubt, like in the past, there will be an omni-cultural world so there shouldn't be 1 set of graphics for future either.
I have tried to narrow it down somewhat from our inital list, but it can be hard. Also in modern times why some countries like China and Japan are seperated its because of the western influence of US (mainly) and W. Europe (lesser) that causes it to be differnt from China (Communist viewpoint).
LGJ: This is a really good breakdown of the cultures for inclusion in several of the models, and I hope you can actually fit it all in. I would disagree with the "future" cultures, but that's a moot point since noone can predict the future with much certainty
As for the graphics, I'm with Mark on the plan of attack. For starters, we'll have to implement a few all-inclusive cultures (broad groups) for design styles, and add later if time permits.
For the "big picture" overview map in the interface: will this be drawn as tiles? If so (I'm assuming it is...), what size should the tiles be? Should there be any attempt to indicate land type (color coded perhaps), or should it just be land/sea as in civ? If color coded, we could indicate flat vs mountainous, or even get more detailed than that...just depends on what people want.
I'm making some progress on the revamped tiles (some look quite different than the original sample, so it should be interesting to get some feedback on them). I'll try and get another "sample" up over the holidays.
*Bump*
Hey all, I had a look at some of the graphic work done. And decided I should give a helping hand since I go to these forums a lot.
Anyway, TIFF is a photo format, so using it for tiles that have 256 colours is pointless, you may aswell use gifs. But if you are going to use more than 256 colours you should use JPG at it's highest quality.
It's best to keep the file size down to a minimum. TIFF are one of the largest image formats there are. It was created simply to keep all the colour shades at maximum quality. Which is obviously best used for photos. BMP is the same, notice how big those files are??
I highly suggest doing what CtP have done, or ToT, using 16bit colours and JPG's. It's the obvious best way to go.
Right now I am working on a modern city look, so far I like it, and would love to see it in the dark time aswell, which is why I am suggesting that half of the map be night, the other day. All you'd have to do is decrease each images lightness and maybe contrast to the same percentage and it would look dark.
Wouldn't you love to see your city shining it's lights in the dark too? I'll create one and show it, see what you think.
I know this is getting a bit much, but I think I am up to it, a few had suggested in Civ3 suggestions, that you should be able to build a city next to one of your current cities and they would both merge together. Thus making it harder to take, which is more realistic I think.
It's also a great sense of power. You could have the largest city on the planet, and it will show!
By the way, the aura? around the units is ugly! I hope that isn't being used.
I've done one modern city now. Excuse the houses at the front edges, I hate them! I don't know whether to fix them or remove them, or put something else there, any suggestions? http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~knowles/DayTime.jpg
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~knowles/NightTime.jpg
And here's the night time one, be quiet, the people are sleeping, shhhh..
Hey here's something cool, use one browser window, open one of the images, then load the other image, then use your back and forward buttons to flip through em'! looks cool hey!!
That does look pretty cool....and best of all it's original! If it's not a processor hog, O Coding Gods, I vote we go with it!
I just had another quick flip with the two, and realized it would get quite annoying having them flip each turn, so if its possible, it would be better if the darkness crept around slowly each turn.
For example, if there were 100 tiles in the X direction, and the darkness moved over 10 tiles each turn for 10 turns, it would do one whole rotation. This way it won't be so annoying. Also, you could change the attack and defence for the night time areas. Maybe, I don't know, its really up to how much the programmers can handle.
I do think it would be a *really* cool look, but the problem is that each Clash turn represents 1 to 5 years. So a "day/night" look wouldn't make a lot of sense. Still, if it wasn't too difficult to implement it would make be a great option for the scenario builders. A "Change of Seasons" option shares the same pluses & minuses, but would also be very useful for scenario creators.
Something similar could be used to change the very nature of the tiles. You could have a "global warming option", an "elliptical orbit" option, and even a "precession" option. The effects would depend upon the option selected, but could include flooding low lying areas, changing some grassland to desert, the ebb and flow of glaciers, etc.
Loki:
Great looking set of icons! Like you said, the houses in the front aren't great, but the rest looks good. As Kull says, I'm not sure what we would actually use the night one for. The big disadvantage of the night view is what it does to the rest of the terrain, which IMO is unacceptable. I thought we might be able to use the lights on, even with the normal map tiles, to signal electrification of cities. I think tie-ins between the graphics and game play like this are important. However, if they were at the cost of having to do a whole other set of city icons, I'm not sure would be worth it. If we end up not having to use an alpha channel for anything else for cities, and I would be easily accomplished with an alpha mask.
Looking forward to seeing more!
My god... I really don't understand what "Alpha Channels" are. So many people explain it to me, but I can't understand it. It's the only thing I don't know about graphics!!!!!!!!!!! And it really annoys me!
Please tell me! Step by step perhaps??
I'm going to fix up the cities now. Also I don't think it will be hard to create a whole other set of cities for the night time. It would be about 3 hours work I think.
Changing that city image to night time was a mere 10 minutes worth.
I see what you mean about the rest of the terrain not merging well with the night time terrain.
How about we have 4 sections. Day Time, Evening, Night time and Morning. This way we can get some real nice looking images in the game. Ever seen a morning sunrise on a mountain? awesome stuff.. Unfortunetly we'd have to create 4 different times for each terrain. That would be a lot of work. I guess it really depends on when you want or when you think this game will be finished.
If the work was up to me, I could pretty much guarentee about 4-5 months to do the entire lot. However if I worked my arse off I could get it done in a month.
If you think this is all too much for the programmers to handle or if this probably isn't a good idea, then thats cool. I can understand that easily.
I would really like to know how you propose to connect each tile within the game.
I downloaded V4, and when I clicked on each tile, it would come to the top layer, covering some of the tiles above it.
I don't think this layer over layer is going to work. First, you'd have to remove all those grey areas, otherwise you're gonna get all those lines between each tile, 2nd, if I click on a grassland, and there is a hill below that tile, the tip of the hill will go underneath the clicked grassland tile. Same goes for anything else that goes above the tile diamond.
How are you going to work this thru?
Loki:
Well, I encouraged you to go ahead and questioned things, so this is what I deserve...
What is in demo for it is a Simple, Kludgy version of what we're going to do. The tile updates only use a single tile. The next version will use a Real update method, and tiles designed with that update method in mind. I'll describe it to you simply, since I don't have much time right now.
Each tile update will be performed in a nine tile pattern. Using all the tiles that are adjacent to the tile we really want to update, and of course the tile itself. In an image buffer, I will assemble each z-level of all nine tiles. First the terrain itself will go down (z = 0) the nine tiles will be painted the same way that they would go up on the full screen image, that is right-to-left starting at the top. So the first thing that goes down is the tile above the tile that needs updating. Then the tile to the upper right of the one were interested in, followed by the tile to the upper left, etc. when the nine tile pattern is complete, we go up to the next z level. The crucial final step is to mask out the precise diamond shape of the bottom three tiles, and anything below. These three tiles are the one to the lower left of our tile, the lower right, and directly below it. The reason for this is that we require the overhang of trees and mountains and units from the lower tiles onto the tile we are interested in, but we can't change those three lower tiles themselves, because other things may overlap on to them. Say all we have is tiles and units. So I put the units on the tiles in the same order. Then finally of course I splat the buffer onto the screen. Following this procedure will result in a Perfect update. The reason I haven't done it yet is that I haven't taken the time to learn how to mask out things in java yet. It involves understanding color models, and I didn't want to delay things to learn how to do that.
Oh, on the alpha channel thing, it just means a partly transparent bit. That's all! So if you want to draw a unit with a colored shield, but the color varies from civ to civ, you use a simple transparent shield with a colored block behind it. If you want to have shading that goes across the shield, you can do this with an alpha channel. So the blue, or whatever color, will shine completely through those places with an alpha value of completely transparent, but only show partly through on the shaded part, which will have a different alpha value. So if black is the "shading" color, and the alpha value is such that half the background will show through, and half will be the black, you'll get a blue-black on that part of the shield.
[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited December 28, 1999).]
I see.
And I just insert another layer, and reduce its opacity to 50% and draw on that. Same thing right?
If I understand what you're saying, yep they're the same thing. BTW, I'm just picking up all this stuff as I go along, so don't rely on me for grafix info too much!
Mark: The most important reason that Civ2 is still alive (other than profit-milking by Microprose)
Kull:
Yeah, I know what you mean. And you're right. But for the forseeable future IMO we need to stay focused on the basics, and just put "hooks" in to handle all the neat things we want to do eventually.
I'm back everyone
First, I'd like to welcome Loki to the team. From what I've read and seen, you can certainly bring some good ideas to the project. Now for my comments...
I agree that TIFF's are a real pain in the *ss, and that's why I've abandoned them for the terrain tiles. We're only using a 256 color palette and no alpha on the map tiles, so GIF's/JPEG's would work fine. I'd still like to investigate how to use an alpha with a GIF/JPEG (not possible as far as I can tell, since they're not multilayered) before totally abandoning TIFF's. We really need to put our heads together before getting to worked up and start cranking out highly detailed tiles (a big reason why my preliminary tiles were fairly shoddy at times - they were simply first drafts). We need to come up with an efficient way of displaying player ownership (colored shields, flags, etc). I personally don't care if it means using an alpha channel or an "ownership" layer on top of the units and cities. I just think it would be VERY inefficient (and downright cludgy) to make a tile for each player color.
As far as the map tiles go, there are still a few problems with them, but I'm on top of that. The gray outline that everyone is *****ing about is now a thing of the past, as I've already solved it - it's just not in the demo 4 graphics set.
Mark's solution to the overlap problem seems workable - we'll just have to wait for demo 5 to see if it really works well (I have faith in you, Mark!) I REALLY think that using an overlap will produce a higher quality map than in Civ. After all, we're not after a clone here. We want something better - which is why we want to get the creative juices flowing. I like the day/night idea, but think it's not the best thing for this project for the same reasons that Kull and Mark listed. I had already been thinking of something like that for seasonal changes, however, for scenarios - but as Mark said, we need to start basic, and build it up from there. It's the same reason that I don't want to attempt 20 different city styles from the get-go (we can add on later).
We can certainly use some talented artists, Loki, and if you're up to the job, I can put you to work on city tiles. We just need to work out some standards before you get too far, so that your beautiful work isn't made obsolete by some detail that comes up in the future. Kind of a pain, but it needs to be done...Here are the main points we need to consider:
1. Graphics file format (sizes and colors) - this has already been decided for the map tiles, so we can probably extend it to the city tiles as well
2. Method for displaying owership. We need to coordinate with JohnMcD and his buddy John, since the method that we choose for unit icons should be the same for the city tiles.
3. Palette considerations. This also requires coordination with the unit icon folks since we want to make sure that the units contrast sufficiently with any underlying tiles (terrain and city).
4. City styles - this may or may not be consistent with the unit icons. However we choose, our standard here should be flexible to incorporate future changes and additions.
5. The actual sizes used for rural vs urban and ancient vs modern cities, and apply this standard to all city tiles (ie for all cultures) to avoid confusing the players.
The main thing is to coordinate everything before doing too much artwork, or else we'll run the risk of throwing things out later as we discover problems. That's the best way to do things IMO
"I REALLY think that using an overlap will produce a higher quality map than in Civ"
Basicaly your saying that you don't want visable tiles, you want true looking land, like Age of kings for example, the land merges into the desert like it's supposed to. Am I right?
Ok
Number 1, I understand, please let me know what sizes and color to use. (I highly reccommend making the cities stand out from both terrain and units).
2. This is a problem I thought will come up. The graphic style needs to be similar, otherwise it will look very messy. So.... I don't know how you plan on doing this.
3. yep.
4. Just let me know, and I'll draw it. Just think of me as a slave or something
5. To avoid confusing the players.. I don't quite understand this, but ok. I do think that modern cities should be very large.
This is how I would do it:
Ancient - small to industrial - medium large to modern - very large.
This way we can actualy get the feeling that we do have a lot of people growing.
And lastly, I understand that, and all I really need is for you to tell me what you want me to do and how you want it and when you want it, and I'll do it.
Here's my ICQ everyone: 55459557
Loki: Thanks for the quick response. It's my understanding that JohnMcd (the unit icon guru) is gone until 1/6. I'd like to hold off on making any final decisions on this discussion until his return, but I think that we are already nailing down some specifics here. To answer your posting:
1. I'll email you the tile sizes. For now, let's start with the biggest (120x70), as Mark described in his email. If you are still unclear as to the overlap (top ten rows of the tile), let me know and I'll try to be more specific. If you look at a terrain tile in photoshop, it should be pretty apparent.
2. I'm leaning to using a separate layer/graphic to indicate player ownership. This has 3 benefits: First (and best reason), it eliminates the need for the TIFF format. Second, we would only need to create one city tile for all of the players, rather than one for each color, and finally, it would be the best method to allow for people to customize them later.
Any thoughts/comments on this? We would simply display a flag, shield, whatever over the city and unit icons. Of course, I'd like to here JohnMcd's and John Gooch's take on this as well (as well as anyone else out there that may have some insight on this)
4. Start off with any culture that you feel comfortable with. The Romans/classic style might be a good choice since that's where players start off in the demos.
5. I thought that having standard city sizes would be most intuitive to the player. FE NOT having a small African village be equivalent to a mid-sized Meso-American town. In other words, if population = 10,000 people, then the city icons should be the same size across cultures for that city size. This may need some more discussion. Mark hit on a great idea that includes some smaller cities in modern times, rather than all large metropolises (sp?) in modern times as in civ. This would help convey different population densities across the map. Question is how to denote smaller rural areas on the map (use your creative genious on this)
I see no problem in starting on some sample tiles to these specs - we can crank out lots of final tiles once we bang out the answers to all of these questions (especially #2) and get some feedback from the rest of the forum after unveiling some more sample tiles. I can't wait to see them!
I think we should consider creating actual flags for each civilization. This way we can see how big we need the flag to be in order for the flag to correctly present it's correct country.
For example, I once created an Indian flag and it wouldn't fit in properly. So it was hard to tell what flag it was from. If it was slightly bigger, then it wouldn't be a problem. Do you think we could make the flag animate? A little wave in it. Just a small gif animation wouldn't be too hard I don't think.
I'm just giving these ideas now just in case we need to know before-hand so we know what we're trying to aim for. Otherwise we may have to start the process all over again in that area. But I don't know for sure.
I understand about the city sizes, all sounds accurate to me. About the small sized modern cities, that to me sounds a lot like suburbs on the out-skirts of the main city, and thats why I suggest the city being able to expand over the tiles. In this case, once the population reaches a certain size, the computer will randomly pick a suitable area (grassland, plain, hills) and plop down a small village area. And that too will also grow into a larger one. This to me sounds like a great idea and a realistic one.
I'll wait for you to you send me the tiles, and I'll start on a roman/greek style city. I have some good ideas I want to use for them.
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