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Thread: uh....so how do forum games work (or not work)

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    MORON
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    uh....so how do forum games work (or not work)

    I had never played a forum game before and poly is the first forum I've found people play forum games. (and only after years of lurking at OT and such)

    I've thought about forum games though, and I posted this on another forum which sadly was ignored. I'm just wondering if my speculations where anywhere near correct, or am I moronic as usual.

    Motivation: Internet forums being a effective (?) communication and storage medium has spawned people role playing online, however I know of no good game system that exists for the forum environment. I was discouraging to see an Gundam RPG ran with only rules such as "you can not dodge too much or avoid taking effective damage for too long" and leave discretion at the players and requring alot of outside intervension to make the game fair. A resolution system, no matter how flawed, is at least fixable and objective. Disputes would be about the system rather than a billion disputes between players. While I have seen systems that are run on forums, most are either boring or ineffective.

    Strength and Weaknesses: Any gaming system that is to be build up on a forum must acknowledge the strength and weakness of the said medium, which is listed below.
    Weaknesses:
    1. Slow response time, as different time zones and such can result in posts needing something on the order of a day to respond.
    2. Lack of build in random number generator.
    3. No face to face contact might limit some forms of communication.
    4. Lack of build in processing capacity, requiring player calculation.
    5. No way of doing a double blind without outside intervension.
    Strength:
    1. Potential for a large player pool. If properly organized, a forum game can be magnitudes larger than a table top or pen and paper game.
    2. Large data storage capacity, magnitudes more then card games and still larger than board games as text can be easily manipulated to store petty much everything. The limitation lies only the player's attention and processing capacity.
    3. Potentially long times can be devoted to the game, as forum junkies can spend hours a day over years on forums.

    Objectives:
    Create a game system, in the order of importance
    1. Result in interesting game play
    2. Is paced so that each command is long, but the number of commands require to resolve a event is low
    3. Allows mutiple people to participate in a event effectively
    4. PC to PC interactions should require low/no third party intervention
    5. The game must be fair and not allow cheating
    6. The system must be simple to learn

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now the problem is two fold, one is the lack of random number generation and the second lies in difficulty in creating a turn system that can allow some kind of reasonable pace.

    With random number generation, if a suitable pseudo-random seed number can be found on the basic forum software than a third party application (on websites) can be used to generate the random numbers. Even if such a system is potentially cheatable by hacking the third party algorithm, it would be too difficult for casual gamers. The problem is that there is no suitable seed number, as the traditional seed number, time, is only accurate up to the minute for forums, where the player can certainly cheat by timing it with the clock and entering the potential times ahead.

    Now of course it is possible to make a game without probability and still be interesting, however they require someway of building up complexity so that the optimal solution is not obvious, and that is difficult in a rpg setting where player only play one or two pieces.

    The second problem lies in the turn structure and how games tend to grow far too long for something to happen. For example if we look at the traditional turn structure.
    Player 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-......etc
    Now this structure is reasonablely fair if the first turn is not overtly powerful. However this system is also slow, since everyone have to wait for the next person to post.

    Ideally, a turn structure that is as restrictive should be faster, for example
    4 players in any order - resolution - 4 player in any order - resolution -....etc
    However the player that orders later than other players have a advantage in this case.
    Alternatively, the turn structure can be made into this:
    1 player that hadn't moved - resolution - 1 player that hadn't moved- resolution -player - resolution - player -resolution - next turn
    However there are potentials for expliotation here, for example countious attack from the end of one turn to the start of the next, and deny the opposition time to respond.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So anyone have any good ideas? I'm sure my lack of experience with pen and paper system probably have limited my imagination on what can be done.

    *waits for the new round for nuclear war FG in the mean time*

    (damn it I have being a newbie.....)

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    Jamski
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    Heh, as the self-appointed Forum Game "Grandpa" I suppose I have something to say on the subject

    The basic thing is:
    • The rules have to be simple enough that everyone can understand them, and complicated enough that there is some tactical depth to the play. I think Nuclear War is very close to this ideal, with Gladiator slightly to the simpler side, and Galactic Overlord slightly to the complex side.
    • You have to try to get into a cycle to keep the game moving. Experimentation has show that a strict 24 hour limit per turn seems to work, with extensions at weekends. Any longer, and some players lose interest.
    • There must be an absolute minimum of randomness in the game. We can't roll any dice or check percentages on forums. We need systems where "if X then Y"


    All the forum games that have managed to establish themselves as reccuring favorites have adhered to these basic concepts.

    -Jam
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    Check out the ALL NEW Galactic Overlord Website for v2.0 and the Napoleonic Overlord Website or even the Galactic Captians Website Thanks Geocities!
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    rah
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    And I reserve the right to review each game and decide if it's appropriate. I haven't tossed many games.
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    Jamski
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    RAH! We were worried you'd fallen down a hole!

    -Jam
    1) The crappy metaspam is an affront to the true manner of the artform. - Dauphin
    That's like trying to overninja a ninja when you aren't a mammal. CAN'T BE DONE. - Kassi on doublecrossing Ljube-ljcvetko
    Check out the ALL NEW Galactic Overlord Website for v2.0 and the Napoleonic Overlord Website or even the Galactic Captians Website Thanks Geocities!
    Taht 'ventisular link be woo to clyck.

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    Skanky Burns
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    Hoooray, for our God has returned to us!

    Forum games also need to either have a short, repetitive cycle or some mechanism whereby players can join or leave at anytime. The former is by far the easier option and is seen in all the forum games we run.
    I'm building a wagon! On some other part of the internets, obviously (but not that other site).

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    joncha
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    Hmm... an open, ongoing forum game sounds intriguing.

    I'm not sure the theme, but it could run on a point system, with rounds updated every 24 hours and players free to come and go each round (kind of like hangman).

    Any ideas on what kind of game would work well as a MMFG?
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    Kuciwalker
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    Originally posted by Jamski
    Heh, as the self-appointed Forum Game "Grandpa" I suppose I have something to say on the subject

    The basic thing is:
    • The rules have to be simple enough that everyone can understand them, and complicated enough that there is some tactical depth to the play. I think Nuclear War is very close to this ideal, with Gladiator slightly to the simpler side, and Galactic Overlord slightly to the complex side.
    • You have to try to get into a cycle to keep the game moving. Experimentation has show that a strict 24 hour limit per turn seems to work, with extensions at weekends. Any longer, and some players lose interest.
    • There must be an absolute minimum of randomness in the game. We can't roll any dice or check percentages on forums. We need systems where "if X then Y"


    All the forum games that have managed to establish themselves as reccuring favorites have adhered to these basic concepts.

    -Jam
    I think the mafia doesn't quite stick to these - or rather, they're not the reason for its success. It's a very social game.

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    General Ludd
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    Mafia usually isn't very social. It's mostly just docpiling and strategic voting.


    It'd be ten times more fun if everyone roleplayed.
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    Yeah, I haven't seen ANYTHING but random docpiling in my game

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    Tuberski
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    Originally posted by Kuciwalker
    Yeah, I haven't seen ANYTHING but random docpiling in my game
    Random?????

    I was very specific with the reason for the first 2 docpiles.

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    Kuciwalker
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    Yes, but no one really seems to be looking for the clues.

    In fact, no one seems to be talking about my big clues.

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    Theben
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    People who look for clues get targeted by the mafia, since dead people tend to lose interest in the game. And docpiling allows other people to live longer, while they figure out clues for themselves. It's like offering a sacrifice.
    But the back and forth banter makes it a social game.
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    Theben
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    Originally posted by Jamski
    You have to try to get into a cycle to keep the game moving. Experimentation has show that a strict 24 hour limit per turn seems to work, with extensions at weekends. Any longer, and some players lose interest.
    Hmmm, better crack down in Gladiator then.
    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
    I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

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    Gladiator is way too slow as it is for my taste, yes. What can possibly make its orders more difficult to come up with than those of Galactic Overlord?

    Originally posted by Theben
    People who look for clues get targeted by the mafia, since dead people tend to lose interest in the game.
    Not if they've been killed by the Mafia. Fear, for I shall have my revenge!
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    Ben Kenobi
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    Yeah, I haven't seen ANYTHING but random docpiling in my game
    Random dogpiling?

    Perhaps there is a pattern you cannot see.

    If you want roleplaying, give people roles other than 'Park guide' and eliminate the generics. It's hard to roleplay without a role.
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    General Ludd
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    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

    If you want roleplaying, give people roles other than 'Park guide' and eliminate the generics. It's hard to roleplay without a role.
    Even in the D&D themed game where people could make their character to some extent, there was next to no roleplaying. Perhaps even less than some games, actually.
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    DrSpike
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    Originally posted by Jamski
    The rules have to be simple enough that everyone can understand them, and complicated enough that there is some tactical depth to the play. I think Nuclear War is very close to this ideal, with Gladiator slightly to the simpler side, and Galactic Overlord slightly to the complex side.
    But gladiator requires more skill than NW, and is arguably more complex also. The results are also not as dependent on the whims of others. It's the best game IMO.

    The only problem is what we are seeing now - two players holding up the game and we can't really just move on like with NW.

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    Ben Kenobi
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    Even in the D&D themed game where people could make their character to some extent, there was next to no roleplaying. Perhaps even less than some games, actually.
    It's easier to roleplay a role given to you than it is to come up with your own.

    Suppose we had a DS9-themed Mafia, there are plenty of options to role play, because the roles are already there.
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  19. #19
    General Ludd
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    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


    It's easier to roleplay a role given to you than it is to come up with your own.

    No it isn't.


    but in the D&D themed one, people chose their race adn class, and their character was made by the GM.
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  20. #20
    Ben Kenobi
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    Sure it is.

    Supposing my example from a DS9 themed Mafia, I had Quark.

    Then I know how I'm already expected to act.

    Or with the Simpsons mafia, where everyone had a character, and an avatar to match the character.
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  21. #21
    DarkCloud
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    Yes, but no one really seems to be looking for the clues.

    In fact, no one seems to be talking about my big clues.
    Skywalker- well, I was until the village killed me.
    apparently searching for clues and roleplaying is 'suspicious'
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    Forum game rules need an out for contestants that disappear.
    We're sorry, the voices in my head are not available at this time. Please try back again soon.

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    DarkCloud
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    any suggestions for that?

    Nuclear War seems to be the best at that- destroying cities for inactivity- but it's been plagued by absentee GM's ... not absentee players
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    maybe we could have a clause in assassins/mafia that missing a round of voting= autodeath?

    and in society maybe a non-update in 24 hours could equal losing your turn?
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  25. #25
    General Ludd
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    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
    Sure it is.

    Supposing my example from a DS9 themed Mafia, I had Quark.

    Then I know how I'm already expected to act.

    You would know how you're suppose to act if you made the character yourself, too, only you wouldn't risk geting stuck with a character type that you can't roleplay.
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  26. #26
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    Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy
    Forum game rules need an out for contestants that disappear.
    Well most games you can just move on if it's not the GM that's awol. That doesn't apply to gladiators though.

  27. #27
    Theben
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    Originally posted by DarkCloud
    maybe we could have a clause in assassins/mafia that missing a round of voting= autodeath?
    A bit much, IMO. Perhaps a better solution would be to auto-add 1 vote to an absentee voters total against him, either one-time or cumulative.

    And I'll enforce the time limit wrt Gladiators, although I don't like it. It's already suffering from lack of players and picking moves for them could discourage their continued participation.

    I suppose if others want to bow out we could see if someone wants to take their place, at current standings.
    I'm consitently stupid- Japher
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  28. #28
    Ben Kenobi
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    Skywalker- well, I was until the village killed me.
    apparently searching for clues and roleplaying is 'suspicious'
    Umm, that didn't get you tossed.

    Accusing Rah of being the Mafia did, and wishing for more votes.
    Scouse Git (2) LaFayette Adam Smith and Solomwi you will be missed
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  29. #29
    DarkCloud
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    It had been 2 days and only 2 people had voted, I think I was right to be annoyed.

    People keep playing the 'under the radar' strat in mafia too much- it's sickening- I like the idea of accuring votes against themselves if they do that.

    I think Theben's suggestion should be implemented.
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  30. #30
    duke o' york
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    Mafia is fine - it's a time-honoured format, and a lot of fun to play.

    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
    Random dogpiling?


    N00b!

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