Civ2's source code petition

[N35t0r]

cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

[Cyrion]

As promised (), I posted on the french Civ III yesterday, and we already got the first signature!

And we need to add civfr.com to the list of forum/sites!

civfr.com

[Broken_Erika]

post it it in the Submissions for Sleague thread

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Broken_Erika
post it it in the Submissions for Sleague thread

Well, I guess you should re-read this thread, Erika, I'm nearly certain my post belongs here...

[Broken_Erika]

oops
i just saw the links in Submissions for Sleague thread
i thought the Submissions for Sleague thread was being used for links to other civ2 sites
we need a section with links to all the civ2 editing sites that we can find as well as other useful links
am i on the petition list, i posted my email adress earlier and asked to be added

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Cyrion
As promised (), I posted on the french Civ III yesterday, and we already got the first signature!

And we need to add civfr.com to the list of forum/sites!

civfr.com

Cool! Thank you very much. Yaro, SeZon, and I have exchanged lists and we are in the process of contacting various gaming sites as I speak.

Erika you are on the list, don't worry

[Harry Tuttle]

The Letter: Version 4

Dear Infogrames,

This petition seeks to gain permission from you, the Civilization II/Sid Meier's Civilizaton II holders, for the release of the Civilization II source code. We present this petition to you in all good faith, as Civilization II fans, as loyal Civilization game franchise followers, and ultimately Civilization game purchasers.

For the past 9 years the computer game Civilization II has been on the market throughout the world. Also, derivatives of the original game, Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition and Civilization II: Test of Time, have been on the market for over 6 years.

During this time Civilization II has enthralled millions with its addicting game play, its ease of use, and ultimately its adaptability to modifications. Since its release it has gained a following like no other game ever released. Even today, many years past the release of Civilization, there are 7 websites around the world devoted to the game and its predecessors. No one can deny Civilization 2 is a game that will forever be revered as a classic.

As with any game that has brought so much pleasure to its fans we, the members of Apolyton.net, Civfanatics.com, The Creative Design Group Civ 2 Forums, Civ.Org.pl, Civilization Center, the Civilization Webring Forum, and Civfr.com seek to learn more about the game which has enthralled us for nearly a decades worth of time. We, in full knowledge and consent, ask you to release the source code of Civilization II to us, the public, for use in modification for non-financial means. We only seek to better and modify the game that has been enjoyed for so long so that we can continue enjoying it, and all the Civilization genre games, including the upcoming the fourth so named Civilization game.

Again, we do not seek to gain financially from the aims set forth in this petition. We are committed to making the source code open to all, at no cost, so that others can continue to enjoy a game that has opened the world of gaming to so many.

As Civilization fans we realize that the source code to Civilization II may still be viewed as commercially viable to any such producer and distributor of the game. To those that seek to gain from the further commercial release of Civilization II we present the following arguments. Please realize that these arguments are presented in good faith, as we do not wish to prod anyone to give up the source code against their will or the will of the ultimate decision makers in the process. We only seek to present an argument and, hopefully, receive a viable argument as to the opposite of our goal.

The arguments for the release of the Civilization II source code:

1) Due to the recent release of Windows XP and the Operating System's penchant for not working well with old games, Civilization II has been increasingly troublesome to play. Major modifications to the root directory are required to run the game, causing problems for any Civ2/Windows XP user. As is evident, Windows XP has become the dominant Operating System for all new computers. Thus, Civilization II has become an obsolete game.

2) In a market dominated by 3 dimensional polygon games, graphic heavy "shooters", and game console like games, the idea of playing a game like Civilization II has been lost to many consumers. Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1997. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers.

3) With the release of Civilization 3, Civilization 3 "add-ons", and the future release of Civilization 4, Civilization II has been passed by as the leading game in the genre of strategy/empire building. Only a few adamant players across the world have chosen to play Civilization II, not enough to be any sort of viable consumer base.

4) An avenue sometimes overlooked is the ability for "gamers" to improve a game. Many people talk about what they want in a game like Civilization II but few actually bother to bring their thoughts to fruition. With the release of the source code the small Civilization II gaming community could improve upon the game, outlining what they, the hardcore gamers, want in a strategy/empire building game. Needless to say, this opens up an opportunity for any future producers of games in the strategy/empire building genre to learn what gamers really want. The signers of this petition are the types of gamers that know what they want and tend to set a precedent for other like-minded gamers. Through the exploration of the internal workings of the Civilization II source code future designers can discover what exactly consumers desire from their strategy/empire building game. The opportunity for designers to learn, improve, and ultimately produce a better selling game is now.

5) Goodwill is an important part of retaining customers. In any industry it is important to reinforce the idea that producers want to satisfy their customers. Any business owner knows that a happy customer is a return customer and that a happy customer will spread the word of a well-meaning company. We, the signers of this petition, believe that releasing the source code to Civilization II is the perfect opportunity to build brand loyalty among Civilization fans. A great many game consumers like the idea that a game producer is out to not only create and sell a game, but to also entertain and satisfy their customers. Remember, a happy customer, is a return customer.

6) Building a following among fans creates an aura of infallibility. Fans of any game will ultimately be apt to continue purchasing any following games in a series. The "group think" among fans of any product, is that any future releases can only improve. With the release of the Civilization II source code many fans will view with affection later releases of the series, facilitating higher sales for the future game. Marketing does not only entail reinforcing the image of the latest game, but reinforcing the image of the entire series. The release of the source code will ignite a new interest in strategy/empire building games, creating a clamor for games of the same ilk.

Our Aim:

We seek a source code released under a public license. We do not seek to make public any graphics or video from Civ2. All we hope to receive is the source code so as to modify the main Civ2 executable, thereby allowing us, the modifiers and fans of Civ2, to compile the program, and to create a better, more bug free, game.

With the release of the code we also ask to have any designer comments included so we can understand why certain game mechanics work as they do.

Various signers of the petition have come up with possible licenses under which the code might be released. Two such possibilities are:

GNU General Public License (GPL): http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

Creative Commons Public License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/.../2.0/legalcode

These licenses are examples. As stated before, we are fans, not practitioners of copyright law. We understand the legal implications of what we are asking but are not interested in minute legal details. We only wish to work with the source code for our own enjoyment.

As can be reasoned, releasing the source code to any game requires full transparency as to the aims of the party wishing for the code to be released. We assure you, as loyal Civ2 fans, that we are sincere in our plea and do not wish to gain financially from the release of the code. The only gain we hope to make is in the fulfillment of making a great game even better.

Please take this letter with the names and email addresses of the petition signers to heart. We, the fans of Civ2 await your reply.


Letter ends here, open to additions


************

Here's the latest version of the petition letter I just whipped up.

Changes:

- Updated the time since the various Civ 2 games were released to reflect the new year. I didn't try to nail down a specific date, just the general length of time in years.

- Changed some wording and grammar.

- Eliminated the conflicting "for non-financial means" and "release under GPL" language in the first part of the letter to reflect the licensing and distribution guidelines of the GPL.

Additions:

- Added and edited the "Aims" portion of the letter, giving us and the source code owners flexibility in how the code is released according to the official wording of the letter.

- Added civfr.com to the sites that have members signing the petition and updated the count of sites.

[Harry Tuttle]

Cyrion, do you think that you could post the updated letter on civfr.com?

[Harry Tuttle]

...and I meant to ask Yaro - Is there a difference between the Civilization Center and the Civilization Gaming Network? Are these two different sites? If so, I will update the letter.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Cyrion, do you think that you could post the updated letter on civfr.com?

I think I could...

And I'll mail you the email and names of the 2 french petitioners (hopefully there'll be more by then )

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Is there a difference between the Civilization Center and the Civilization Gaming Network? Are these two different sites? If so, I will update the letter.

Well, CGN is here: http://www.civgaming.net, it's where my site is hosted. I've never heard of the Civilization Center before.

Oh and, I would suggest you change the "there are 7 websites" part. There are many more civ2 sites, I've got 10 in my bookmarks alone. You get the idea here:
http://dmoz.org/Games/Video_Games/St...vilization_II/ Quite a few of those are dead though, and a lot of them aren't updated any more. Maybe it says something that there are still more Civ2 sites listed there than there are civ3 sites.

You could either change the phrase to mention that there are still dozens of websites about civ2, or you could stick to the main sites and say there are at least 7 big online communities or something. Perhaps also add that Open Directory link or some other big list of civ2 links.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Mercator


Well, CGN is here: http://www.civgaming.net, it's where my site is hosted. I've never heard of the Civilization Center before.

Oh and, I would suggest you change the "there are 7 websites" part. There are many more civ2 sites, I've got 10 in my bookmarks alone. You get the idea here:
http://dmoz.org/Games/Video_Games/St...vilization_II/ Quite a few of those are dead though, and a lot of them aren't updated any more. Maybe it says something that there are still more Civ2 sites listed there than there are civ3 sites.

You could either change the phrase to mention that there are still dozens of websites about civ2, or you could stick to the main sites and say there are at least 7 big online communities or something. Perhaps also add that Open Directory link or some other big list of civ2 links.

I think I'll change it to the active online communities. That is after all where all the signers are from.

[yaroslav]

Harry, Civilization center is a polish web:

http://www.civilization.prv.pl/

[yaroslav]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle


I think I'll change it to the active online communities. That is after all where all the signers are from.

Good idea

BTW, Isn't tool late for the christmas smilies?

[Harry Tuttle]

Ok, new update, with additional edits as specified by your posts. I also changed all the "Civ2" spellings to "Civ II"

The Letter: Version 5

Dear Infogrames,

This petition seeks to gain permission from you, the Civilization II/Sid Meier's Civilizaton II holders, for the release of the Civilization II source code. We present this petition to you in all good faith, as Civilization II fans, as loyal Civilization game franchise followers, and ultimately Civilization game purchasers.

For the past 9 years the computer game Civilization II has been on the market throughout the world. Also, derivatives of the original game, Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition and Civilization II: Test of Time, have been on the market for over 6 years.

During this time Civilization II has enthralled millions with its addicting game play, its ease of use, and ultimately its adaptability to modifications. Since its release it has gained a following like no other game ever released. Even today, many years past the release of Civilization, there are 8 active online communities around the world devoted to the game and its predecessors. No one can deny Civilization II is a game that will forever be revered as a classic.

As with any game that has brought so much pleasure to its fans we, the members of Apolyton.net, Civfanatics.com, The Creative Design Group Civ 2 Forums, Civ.Org.pl, Civilization Center, Civilization Gaming Network, the Civilization Webring Forum, and Civfr.com seek to learn more about the game which has enthralled us for nearly a decade’s worth of time. We, in full knowledge and consent, ask you to release the source code of Civilization II to us, the public, for use in modification for non-financial means. We only seek to better and modify the game that has been enjoyed for so long so that we can continue enjoying it, and all the Civilization genre games, including the upcoming the fourth so named Civilization game.

Again, we do not seek to gain financially from the aims set forth in this petition. We are committed to making the source code open to all, at no cost, so that others can continue to enjoy a game that has opened the world of gaming to so many.

As Civilization fans we realize that the source code to Civilization II may still be viewed as commercially viable to any such producer and distributor of the game. To those that seek to gain from the further commercial release of Civilization II we present the following arguments. Please realize that these arguments are presented in good faith, as we do not wish to prod anyone to give up the source code against their will or the will of the ultimate decision makers in the process. We only seek to present an argument and, hopefully, receive a viable argument as to the opposite of our goal.

The arguments for the release of the Civilization II source code:

1) Due to the recent release of Windows XP and the Operating System's penchant for not working well with old games, Civilization II has been increasingly troublesome to play. Major modifications to the root directory are required to run the game, causing problems for any Civ II/Windows XP user. As is evident, Windows XP has become the dominant Operating System for all new computers. Thus, Civilization II has become an obsolete game.

2) In a market dominated by 3 dimensional polygon games, graphic heavy "shooters", and game console like games, the idea of playing a game like Civilization II has been lost to many consumers. Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1997. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers.

3) With the release of Civilization 3, Civilization 3 "add-ons", and the future release of Civilization 4, Civilization II has been passed by as the leading game in the genre of strategy/empire building. Only a few adamant players across the world have chosen to play Civilization II, not enough to be any sort of viable consumer base.

4) An avenue sometimes overlooked is the ability for "gamers" to improve a game. Many people talk about what they want in a game like Civilization II but few actually bother to bring their thoughts to fruition. With the release of the source code the small Civilization II gaming community could improve upon the game, outlining what they, the hardcore gamers, want in a strategy/empire building game. Needless to say, this opens up an opportunity for any future producers of games in the strategy/empire building genre to learn what gamers really want. The signers of this petition are the types of gamers that know what they want and tend to set a precedent for other like-minded gamers. Through the exploration of the internal workings of the Civilization II source code future designers can discover what exactly consumers desire from their strategy/empire building game. The opportunity for designers to learn, improve, and ultimately produce a better selling game is now.

5) Goodwill is an important part of retaining customers. In any industry it is important to reinforce the idea that producers want to satisfy their customers. Any business owner knows that a happy customer is a return customer and that a happy customer will spread the word of a well-meaning company. We, the signers of this petition, believe that releasing the source code to Civilization II is the perfect opportunity to build brand loyalty among Civilization fans. A great many game consumers like the idea that a game producer is out to not only create and sell a game, but to also entertain and satisfy their customers. Remember, a happy customer, is a return customer.

6) Building a following among fans creates an aura of infallibility. Fans of any game will ultimately be apt to continue purchasing any following games in a series. The "group think" among fans of any product, is that any future releases can only improve. With the release of the Civilization II source code many fans will view with affection later releases of the series, facilitating higher sales for the future game. Marketing does not only entail reinforcing the image of the latest game, but reinforcing the image of the entire series. The release of the source code will ignite a new interest in strategy/empire building games, creating a clamor for games of the same ilk.

Our Aim:

We seek the release of the source code for Civilization II: Multiplayer Gold Edition v1.3 or if possible, Civilization II: Test of Time v1.11.

We seek a source code released under a public license. We do not seek to make public any graphics or video from Civ II. All we hope to receive is the source code so as to modify the main Civ II executable, thereby allowing us, the modifiers and fans of Civ II, to compile the program, and to create a better, more bug free, game.

With the release of the code we also ask to have any designer comments included so we can understand why certain game mechanics work as they do.

Various signers of the petition have come up with possible licenses under which the code might be released. Two such possibilities are:

GNU General Public License (GPL): http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php

Creative Commons Public License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/.../2.0/legalcode

These licenses are examples. As stated before, we are fans, not practitioners of copyright law. We understand the legal implications of what we are asking but are not interested in minute legal details. We only wish to work with the source code for our own enjoyment.

As can be reasoned, releasing the source code to any game requires full transparency as to the aims of the party wishing for the code to be released. We assure you, as loyal Civ II fans, that we are sincere in our plea and do not wish to gain financially from the release of the code. The only gain we hope to make is in the fulfillment of making a great game even better.

Please take this letter with the names and email addresses of the petition signers to heart. We, the fans of Civ II await your reply.


Letter ends here, open to additions

[Case]

Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Letter ends here, open to additions
emphasis added

While it's a good letter, the last thing it needs to to be made any longer! Send it as it is.

[Shaka Naldur]

I like it!

[Hywel Dda]

If you are still taking signatures please accept mine.

civ2petition@h-hughes.com

[curtsibling]

The letter rules - We should let the bosses of Poly and
other sites see it and ask if they would endorse it...

[Cyrion]

Two more signatures on the french site! (sent to Harry)

[Broken_Erika]

what's the progress?

[Broken_Erika]

There hasn't been any updates in a while,
any news? i'd like to know, i'm taking programming lessons so that i can work with this,

[Per]

Great effort. Asking them to release it under the Creative Commons license is not a very good idea. It is _not_ meant for licensing of code. Better to keep focus on one suggestion, and add some examples of other games and companies that have opened the code to their old games under the GPL (Quake, Warzone...)

(You should also be aware that the Creative Commons NC-SA license would not counted as "open source" if used on code.)

Other nitpicks: It sounds in the first paragraphs as if you are asking for permission to release the source code, ie that you already have it. I guess the big problem here might be that nobody has it anymore, and it might be some work for whoever owns its copyright to check for and disentangle it from the copyrights of other companies and prune the code for "offensive" source code comments.

(Edit: JA2 wasn't released under a GPL license.)

[Harry Tuttle]

Thanks Per. What other licenses are out there, besides GPL?

As for an update, there are currently 483 signatures on the petition, with a few being added every week.

I'd like to ask if anyone can add to this, not just the letter itself. Examples, as Per suggests, are needed.

Thanks much.

[Rasbelin]

If you have changeg Civ 2 -> Civ II, then also change the other Civ titles to Roman numbers. Ie. Civ III and Civ IV. More correct then.

As for licenses, I assume you have already paid attention to the OSI website (http://www.opensource.org/) and all the licenses found there? And what about asking some influential persons support the cause (mainly Thunderfall, Markos and Dan)?

[Rasbelin]

Okay, did some reading and thinking. I would suggest the use of a BSD styled license (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php), as that would constitute better licensing grounds for the current copyright holder. It would mean having to retain the original copyright notice, which most likely is more favourable for a large corporation like Atari. If you want to take into account the possible patent or trademark issues (if there's any patented stuff in Civ II or the use of any of their trademark for any derivative work has been concidered), you'd better have a license that excludes rights to any patented material and the use of trademarks. One such license is the CDDL (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/cddl1.php).

[CapTVK]

Ah, now i have to point out something important. There's one very important caveat when using the BSD license....

"Most of the BSD software has been developed using government grants, so the people have already paid for it. Therefore there are few restrictions on what you can do with it. The main difference between it and the GPL is that source code modification can be kept private and do not have to be redistributed. "

For a quick license comparison see here
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~pev5b/wr...efinition.html

So a party that uses BSD licensed code in its own program isn't under any obligation to further distribute the source and may even sell his own version of it. Microsoft uses BSD code in parts of it's OS for example.

The original BSD source is still available to other parties of course and it's up to them if they want to release their own improvements in public or not..

[Leonidas]

My suggestion would be to request a release of the source code but under the supervision and ownership of UBIsoft.

In other words, UBI sound retain all control.

We (the gamers) would then gain an improved product; UBI could then have the option of releasing an improved version of CivII (once improvements have been made).

[Mercator]

Civ2 Source Code Petition continues here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=132525