Multiplayer Strategy Guide 2nd Version

checkMate · April 18, 2004, 10:06

Originally posted by Mathemagician
hello,

i would like to know whether the following behaviors are considered cheating or not (regarding PBEM play):

- looking at your own old turns of a game to have a picture of how the situation was a while ago.

This should be legal (imo)

- reconstructing a situation in the cheat mode of an independent single player game, using only the information of the actual game that you can legally access (without using the result of what you learn from the cheat mode).

Why do it if your not going to use it? Or, better to
say how could you not use it? Once you know the
information, you would always use it. However,
I don't think the above would be cheating even if
you did use it. In fact one
could do many of those experiements on several stacks
and build a data base of results for later use.

example:
i see a stack of 6 units on a forest with a samurai on top. i consider attacking that stack with my own stack of which i naturally know the contents.
the question is: am i allowed, before i make the decision to attack or not, to start a new single player game, open the cheat mode and give one AI a stack of 6 units on a forest including one samurai (guessing the remaining contents), then give myself "a copy" of the stack i have in the game and test out how the attack works ?
basically experience would give you the same result as testing it this way, so i dont see anything illegal about it.

- replaying a turn with the exact same decisions. note that the results will be the same if you use the same order of actions, due to the random seeding of the game.

example:
i make an attack and clicked close too fast, not memorizing which enemy units were participating. i reopen the turn, make the same actions in the same order, this time looking more closely at those units.

- replaying a turn with the same decisions in all situations involving randomness or otherwise 'hidden' information, but changing those decisions where none of these are involved.

example #1:
i end my turn but suddenly realize i forgot to adjust the slider settings. i reopen the turn, make everything identical as before, but adjust the slider settings.

example #2:
i rush buy a certain object, look at the next city and see i would have rather spent the money on that object. i reopen the turn and act accordingly (provided no random event made me change my mind or something like that).

These last few seem error prone, but only the last one there seems to be kind of cheating, the rest were basically not-cheating, but just error prone, you could
make a mistake or mis-remember you previous move?

---
thank you
math
trying to make the best out of his turns.

Mathemagician · April 18, 2004, 10:34

@checkmate

maybe i put the thing about the cheat mode unclear.
of course i want to use the end result of what i learn. im not exactly sure what i ment with that sentence the first time. i now deleted it.

about the last thing. sure, you could make a few mistakes, but i think the chance is very slim. at least i believe my short time memory will be good enough for that.

what about the issue to change some actions ?
its very likely that not doing it the right way the first time just came from being hasty. else you would have to take much more time for all your turns.

--
any other opinions on that ?

Grandpa Troll · April 18, 2004, 12:00

Ramping is definetly considered a cheat/bug/exploitation=from my understanding one rush buys several "cheaper" facilities" to in fact claim a more expensive one, which if bought outright would cost more.

Rush buying is done in several ways, the most common is building a granary and when the city grows to size "2" you "rush" buy the granary and in same turn switch to a settler and for a greatly reduced cost you have a settler...

These are both regarded community wide as exploits/cheats/bugs

Here is something several of top players have taught me..Blackice,Paul and the Late Great Fascist Jack-Booted-Rest-In-Peace Faded Glory

Hole

Say you have the Abiliites to mass produce something like Calvary which is really the first unit worth contemplating this strategy with:

Say you have a city building London Exchange, well worth the investment

You have multiple cities building Calvary and then send them to that city building the London exchange and BAM disband them within that city and get a portion of the production value applied to the building of the London Exchange or for that matter whatever you are building

Here is another strategy..say you had communism then are at a tough battle and on multiple fronts need quick aggressive units so you switch to Fascism..build Fascists then quell the disturbance now years later have say 100 + running around but now say you want Corporate Republic.

Try sending all them buggers to city recently "accquired and disbanding them to maybe build Drug Stores or Oil Refineries......

That way you reduce the cost associated with many war units, reduce the happiness penaly associated with war even though its a great militray govt. and help with production facilities or even maybe Televisions in +10 size cities...

Just a thought is all and no I dont have all the number crunching but it does have its upside...

Peace

GT

Mathemagician · April 18, 2004, 15:26

generally, i think a shortcut which makes something faster that would legally be possible should be allowed.

ricketyclik · April 19, 2004, 06:49

Rush buying later in production phase costs less per remaining production required. If you rush buy something with 2 turns to go, then switch to something which was going to take 3 but now 2 and rush buy it, it costs a lot less than rush buying the second item from 3 turns til finished.

This applies even more if you switch from a building to a unit.

This practice has been strongly disallowed in this community for some time, although it hasn't been discussed recently. It gives the person using it a MAJOR advantage.

Mathemagician · April 19, 2004, 07:32

okay.

i always thought the gold cost was proportional to the production cost, like in civilisation.
of course, i wont use it anymore.
(had done so only in one game anyway)

but i assume first pumping units into a production, then rush buying is allowed.

Mathemagician · April 19, 2004, 07:35

Originally posted by ricketyclik
Rush buying later in production phase costs less per remaining production required.

do you know where in the text files i can find the respective values ?

ricketyclik · April 19, 2004, 07:40

Originally posted by Mathemagician

but i assume first pumping units into a production, then rush buying is allowed.

As far as I know. It seems it should be, given that the facility is explicitly allowed for in the game design.

Originally posted by Mathemagician do you know where in the text files i can find the respective values ?

'Fraid not. It's just something I've noticed from looking at the cost of rush buying an item from turn to turn.

quinns · April 19, 2004, 12:15

Rush buying IS allowed in all forms -- It is part of the game. What is NOT allowed is to rush-buy then SWITCH PRODUCTION TO A MORE COSTLY UNIT ON THE SAME TURN. That is what is strongly discouraged here because it is a bug exploit that does give a significant adavantage.

ThePlagueRat · April 19, 2004, 12:59

Once I experienced an opponent who pulled something really bad at me. I was a bit too cocky and there was a war. He did not have a whole bunch of cities and I was not really worried about him, but suddenly he stood me up with a whole bunch of mounted archers and knights and such. They came in stacks of 4 and spread over a rather big area. I was in the expansion phase without an offensive army and I got outmanouvered pretty easily. That's one ditch to jump into...

Solver · April 19, 2004, 14:48

Anyone else think this threads deserves to be topped?

Mathemagician · April 19, 2004, 14:51

Solver · April 19, 2004, 14:54

Waiting for another

.

Grandpa Troll · April 19, 2004, 15:15

Make it so Obi Wan Solver!!

Solver · April 19, 2004, 15:17

Vox Populi, Vox Moderator.

ricketyclik · April 20, 2004, 07:09

Who the hell is ThePlagueRat?

Mathemagician · April 20, 2004, 07:17

Originally posted by ricketyclik
Who the hell is ThePlagueRat?

AFAIK it is a Magic: The Gathering card.

ThePlagueRat · April 20, 2004, 11:52

Nice, I'll size it down and I got a new avatar...

Gavrushka · April 23, 2004, 10:54

It would be good to see a few more PBEMers try an online session or two. I would be delighted to play against anyone interested..

On Sunday around midday GMT I am playing Blackice.. If anyone wishes a game prior, just post here. I am interested in the strategies that have developed over the last year or so, as I find I have the same gameplan as then, and I fall far short of the mark against the most recent standards of play (in PBEM at least)

blackice · April 23, 2004, 18:38

What ya doing now?

Keygen · April 24, 2004, 01:43

Ask yoda to play you online whenever he's got the time. In my opinion he's possibly the best player around and probably the toughest I've ever played with.

Gavrushka · April 24, 2004, 02:49

Originally posted by Keygen
Ask yoda to play you online whenever he's got the time. In my opinion he's possibly the best player around and probably the toughest I've ever played with.

Yoda was pretty good from what I remember... but there is one other thing to remember... The one and only Gavrushka, the righter of wrongs, the champion of good, the light in the dark, the gusher of splurge is back...

blackice · April 25, 2004, 20:31

hummm

PS: PaulNo1 is absolut no cheater!!

Well it seems to me this chit keeps comming up, check this thread for instance.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=51583

As much as quinn and gav, both who I respect backed paul, these things with paul just keep surfacing.
For paul to say he does not know ramping at the time this thread came out is an out right lie. Period

Paul does not defend himself in this thread well in fact I say Yoda, Doom and several other people have paul figured out quite well.

In fact the ramping trick was taught to paul by an old player, was'nt it paul...

In fact zeratul and others used this trick wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the F*** back and paul knew this.

So why lie paul?

Or this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=6233

Meaning as much as paul tried to play the hero, 2000+ points he earned were with the cheats... That's like ya I robbed the bank numerous times but if I tell ya how I did it can I go free, better yet praise me for it...

Nice try....Someone else would have stepped forward...We all knew something was up and had figured it out that we were being cheated. Now Paul denied it endlessly in the GL forum, endlessly he lied to those who knew something was wrong. That is called dishonest till caught...Nice try...

What has he contributed since? Nothing...Hero, not... Keep this in mind people, hero with clean wins, hero in cheating, pack your bags and we rub out your memory and score...Cuz it is worthless...A hero in your own mind...

So Filix while you were losing game after game to paul in GL does it comfort you to know he was ramping, switch buy, gold crack and slic pw on you because he told our tight knit community he was? He had few choices the gig was up in GL. He needed a new home and he found us. I may remind the people here he has only ever admitted to switch-rush-buy.

He never disclosed he was using the rest. Nope he kept that to himself while he continued to call himself number one, and cheating everyone with the rest of the cheats. I bet even now he will say he never used those cheats, never. Ya right....

No I stand with what I say and I know paul will come clean one day. Or ya know what paul all your victories mean squat....As they do now to anyone with any sense of fair play. You and your ilk ruined GL with hundreds of players cheated to submission. Yup your a hero.........In your own mind.....

Reminder to all we are seeing more slic use, such as the pw slic, these are cheats in as much as the community has agreed to not to use the slic, cracks, ramps, rush-switch-buy unless it is spelled out before the game begins and both parties agree...

Grandpa Troll · April 25, 2004, 21:54

Originally posted by blackice
hummm

PS: PaulNo1 is absolut no cheater!!

Well it seems to me this chit keeps comming up, check this thread for instance.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=51583

As much as quinn and gav, both who I respect backed paul, these things with paul just keep surfacing.
For paul to say he does not know ramping at the time this thread came out is an out right lie. Period

Paul does not defend himself in this thread well in fact I say Yoda, Doom and several other people have paul figured out quite well.

In fact the ramping trick was taught to paul by an old player, was'nt it paul...

In fact zeratul and others used this trick wayyyyyyyyyyyyy the F*** back and paul knew this.

So why lie paul?

Or this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...&threadid=6233

Meaning as much as paul tried to play the hero, 2000+ points he earned were with the cheats... That's like ya I robbed the bank numerous times but if I tell ya how I did it can I go free, better yet praise me for it...

Nice try....Someone else would have stepped forward...We all knew something was up and had figured it out that we were being cheated. What has he contributed since? Nothing...Hero, not... Keep this in mind people, hero with clean wins, hero in cheating, pack your bags and we rub out your memory and score...Cuz it is worthless...A hero in your own mind...

So Filix while you were losing game after game to paul in GL does it comfort you to know he was ramping, switch buy, gold crack and slic pw on you because he told our tight knit community he was? He had few choices the gig was up in GL. He needed a new home and he found us.

No I stand with what I say and I know paul will come clean one day. Or ya know what paul all your victories mean squat....As they do now to anyone with any sense of fair play. You and your ilk ruined GL with hundreds of players cheated to submission. Yup your a hero.........

Reminder to all we are seeing more slic use, such as the pw slic, these are cheats in as much as the community has agreed to not to use the slic, cracks, ramps, rush-switch-buy unless it is spelled out before the game begins and both parties agree...

Well..it makes me feel good that although I suck..at least i suck honestly!!

Hmm..I mean i have ramped up my sucking..from suck-u-bus01 to short-lived Glory and Sir-sux-a-lots..

to Suck-crack whereas I added a line that read something like

Code:

 add suck each turn times X-tra suckiness

then I went and had the gold crack whereas it was something like..iirc

Code:

 give suckiness to aunatural suckster

then the SLIC for suckers..

Code:

 add suck 'n'blow each turn when.if.grandpa troll launches.each.turn

ok..I am coming clean..i suck and yes come by it naturally...

GT

blackice · April 25, 2004, 22:56

well it is nice to be part of the well suck no cheat crowd eh!.

But do not distract too much from the message ok....

quinns · April 26, 2004, 01:12

Regarding Paulno1 -- All I can say is that he did NOT cheat against me in our PBEM match. It was a very good dual-duel match where he eeked by with a win by taking my last city one turn before I would have taken his last city. Being that it was PBEM, I could check all of his turns at the end of the match. No where in all 77 turns of the match (in either of the two dual-duel games) did he cheat.

blackice · April 26, 2004, 02:52

Nice thanks for the input, now ask yourself would he cheat under that control? Would you? Not likely.

I make no hero out of a cheat you can, I refuse his record and the facts speak for themself.

I ask you quinn why did he not inform us of the ramping, pw slic's, gold cracks, on and on?
Why if he is soooooooo up front did he save those to continue to wipe out opponents with ease and no concience? Sure did that much is obvious.

Read that thread again it has not gone away, only the people that abhore cheating left.

I agree he did not cheat in your extremely controled game, or did he? Did ya miss something? the gold crack does 1 gold per turn minimum, the pw is based on per citizen again 1 per. You sure you did not miss anything?

Tell ya what have me a game see if you can spot it, if not i'll show you how... Gav just got a lesson want to see someone match pauls pg to a tee? How about pw I can match him turn for turn. Why the hel* do you think he does not play here or any of us online anymore? Even seen the advantage two comps give you in online play? Did he ever post the crash trick? Nope, did he continue to use it? You bet he did...

I will add in online you could never and did not ever get that close to a win against paul did you? We know the answer to that is no, isn't it...Why?

Back to how can you make a hero of someone who brought down an entire league? Because he did not cheat you, maybe? or because he came clean to be accepted? With one of many known cheats at the time...
Face it quinn the guy cheated for several years, racked up many wins and called himself god. Then said oh boys BTW here is the scoup just before the chit hit the fan...
Yup hero....

Far too many people were cheated by this ilk and others for me to say, wonderful guy... He cheated us for years brought down a league and dicouraged an entire generation of game lovers, then told us how...well only as much as he needed to do to keep winning.

Some hero...I say balls one game quinn of several hundred does not make one honest. Catch my point? I am not alone in this at all, saladino was about to bring him down so were several other insiders, in fact they tried and were discredited by none other than pauland his ilk, no paul had no choice, hero or villan. He choose to strike at the few beggers. The jig was up he knew it.

Interesting enough time proved he knew of other cheats and simply kept them close while playing the hero...cute....No quinn dispite your continued defence of this cheat time and the facts speak for themself. A blind eye simply encourages the blind...Eyes wide open man the only way to live...

Nope the little things the little things they just will not go away, tooooooooooo many far toooo many people see it to be dismissed....

Grandpa Troll · April 26, 2004, 05:05

Originally posted by blackice

well it is nice to be part of the well suck no cheat crowd eh!.

But do not distract too much from the message ok....

Ok..fair enuff.I wont "distract" but add to this discussion.

I have often wondered why someone whom has such a grasp so to speak by their own admission..easily beating X 4 on PG before 100 turns is up in a pbem game wont play MP and if they do..dont stand a chance?

I know..I know..MP & PBEM are two different animals..but one should be at least decent in having ability to stay fairly close through 100 turns in an MP game if they could wipe out people in pbem in that quick of a timeframe. eh?

as for this whole pw-slic, gold crack restart, ramping thingey mentioned, 'tis a shame...

I seen funky deals and funkier deals...

we all been through this discussion before and yes..makes one sick to have people go WAY beyond a simple "exploitation" like the granary for settler or even the farm under city..

BUT..I for one was unaware of many things until recently "enlightened"...whne I play folks online..I often save and open turns after game is completed and ya know..amazing things appear when you disect the turns..

Again, thanks for the heads up mr. Blackice

To me however, these are way above me simple country-@r$e mind..I do some slic for scenario making and thats where it ends..

GT

Mathemagician · April 26, 2004, 07:05

you mentioned a PW-slic ?
ive tried to modify PWs over a slic file (when trying to make 'honest' mods

), but had no success. how does one do that ?

on the issue:
i wonder how political this thing has gone, for a simple game where you dont even make money with. its sad, but i can understand those people who fight cheating, because they probably love this game. however, any cheater loves his ego more. and his delusions. and his dick. whatever...

math
(with big ego, big delusions, ...)

Mathemagician · April 26, 2004, 09:56

a few things on slavery:

1.) besides the fact that slaves cost no wages and only half the food, they dont count towards the food required to grow a city either.
2.) newly captured slaves are NOT sent to your nearest city, but instead to the nearest city that can guard the slaves at the time of capture. (remember 1 military unit can guard 3 slaves)

so an interesting strategy is to take your military units out of your cities except one for just a moment for all slavery attacks during your own turn. the slaves will all be sent to that one city which is the only guarded one at that time. you can pump that city incredibly fast with that, provided you can make a lot of slavery attacks.
moreover, point 1.) assures that the city will also produce regular citizens faster if you put the slaves to work on food-heavy tiles.
im my game vs. Dimytes i pushed one city to size 22 this way, the slaves working for food, the free citizens researching with galileo's telescope.

and once emancipation act hit the ground, i had even more scientists.