I don't agree with either of them.
As I have the fortunate privilege of being able to view the antics of George W. Bush and his cronies from afar, I'm interested in understanding what real Americans think of the situation both within their own country and it's relationship with the rest of the world, rather than rely on the often outrageous reporting of the US media.....particularly FoxNews and, to a lesser extent, CNN.
I don't agree with either of them.
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
From what I can gather, there is no average American.
Their society is quite polarised and rather than being a cause, George Bush II is a symptom of that.
Polarised? Perhaps within a narrow range. Most Americans agree on most things. Generally we share common goals. The debate is usually how to accomplish them. Michael Moore and Ann Coulter represent two extreme polls, which is why they draw so much press. The truth is that most of us lie in the middle. Their always has been and always will be healthy debate on the issues here. Every four to eight yars of my life I hear how "polarised" we are...if we didn't hear that then their wouldn't be much for the press to cover.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
The US is such a boring place. Michael Moore, extreme?
Last edited by General Ludd; January 19, 2004 at 09:09.
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse
Do It Ourselves
The problem is that both left and right get the most visibility and most Americans are much more moderate. The appearance of pandering to both far left and far right special interests leaves the moderate middle with the same old conundrum. Which is the lesser of two evils?
30% left
30% right
40% centrist voting for either Kang or Kodos.
OTOH, once in office the same leftist or rightist pandering candidates shift to centrist policies. Case in point Clinton and Bush. And for those who think Bush ultra-right one only need look at the growth of government and tarrif policy.
So to answer your question the answer most likely is no, unless the left is capable of swaying more than 20% of the centrists.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
Michael Moore is a moderate left winger.
The average american doesn't vote.
Jon Miller: MikeH speaks the truth
Jon Miller: MikeH is a shockingly revolting dolt and a masturbatory urine-reeking sideshow freak whose word is as valuable as an aging cow paddy.
We've got both kinds
I second the "there is no average American" sentiment. Ideologically at least, we are a country that values independent thought and going your own way, no matter how stupid or pointless that way may be. I think it might be one of the consequences of overabundant information that we polarize ourselves to be distinct. That, and we vilify agreement. If three people feel the same way about anything, it's just mindless conformity, after all. In a nation of armchair experts, everyone is bound to think Moore is wrong on at least one small portion of his beliefs. I mean, just listen to how pretentious I sound, and I'm a relatively open-minded American.
1011 1100
Pretentious git.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
The averge American (And everyone else) doesn't understand what Michael Moore stands for. For example, as far as most (Perhaps a simplification) people are concerned since he hates Bush therefore he loves Clinton, when that is not correct. I guess that's what happens with a two party system though.
I don't agree with Moore.
Moore is pretty moderate... it's just because he's so public and outspoken against right wing radicals that he seems to be on the fringe.
I think America is more "liberal" than the right would like. The NRA knows this, and a lot of other right wing groups know this. There was a collection of polls I read about that illustrated this fact.
The right keeps America polarized over "moral" issues like abortion, religion, and now war in order to keep power. They know that America would boot them out if most Americans knew about their corrupt connections to corporate cartels.
But does the "average" American agree with Michael Moore? Tough to answer... there isn't such a thing as an "average" American.
Eh, you're pretty average, Sava.
Bush has yet to tack back to the center. He's starting to make some campaign promises to go centerwards again, but his promises have the same worth as a $3 bill.Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
OTOH, once in office the same leftist or rightist pandering candidates shift to centrist policies. Case in point Clinton and Bush. And for those who think Bush ultra-right one only need look at the growth of government and tarrif policy.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
There is no such thing as the average American. And we are pretty polarized as a society. I would say 30% right, 20% left, and the rest floating in the middle. But those people who are apolitical are also the ones least liekly to get involved in politics, so even if one can claim the majority of Americans are moderate, this is a majority that is uninvolved, thus leaving the polarized ends to control the politics of this country.
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
No moreso than the claims of the elite 8.Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Bush has yet to tack back to the center. He's starting to make some campaign promises to go centerwards again, but his promises have the same worth as a $3 bill.
Funny no matter who is elected they will betray their core support group as they adopt centrist policies.
Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe; January 19, 2004 at 11:18.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
America is in deep trouble then...Originally posted by JohnT
Eh, you're pretty average, Sava.
economically, he's ultra-right... or corporatist... in terms of social policy, he's authoritarian. The growth of government has little to do with the normal left-right comparisons on economics (which is why I hate the LINEAR MODEL!).OTOH, once in office the same leftist or rightist pandering candidates shift to centrist policies. Case in point Clinton and Bush. And for those who think Bush ultra-right one only need look at the growth of government and tarrif policy.
There's nothing "conservative" about Dubya... he's a radical in his use of the military in foreign policy, and he's extremely authoritarian in his views on abortion, gays, and "security". True "conservatives" ideals are in extreme contrast to the people who call themselves conservatives today.
Conversely, many so called "liberals" aren't very liberal at all. After 8 years of Clinton, the drug war is as intense as ever, there was little social progress as wealth continued to trickle up... Clinton's not a liberal, Dubya isn't a conservative.
I really wish we could have some better descriptive norms in terms of politics. This "left/right" crap dumbs the process down and is detrimental to informing people about the parties or candidates they support.
I asumed my comment would spur some anti Bush hating sentiments. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed.
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson
“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
how is what I said "antiBush hating"...Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I asumed my comment would spur some anti Bush hating sentiments. Glad to see I wasn't disappointed.
I merely described Bush on the political spectrum... and BTW, if it was "anti-Bush hating", I would be someone like Rush Limbaugh bashing liberals.
Except for the part about Dubya being radical in his use of the military - I agree.Originally posted by Sava
economically, he's ultra-right... or corporatist... in terms of social policy, he's authoritarian. The growth of government has little to do with the normal left-right comparisons on economics (which is why I hate the LINEAR MODEL!).
There's nothing "conservative" about Dubya... he's a radical in his use of the military in foreign policy, and he's extremely authoritarian in his views on abortion, gays, and "security". True "conservatives" ideals are in extreme contrast to the people who call themselves conservatives today.
Conversely, many so called "liberals" aren't very liberal at all. After 8 years of Clinton, the drug war is as intense as ever, there was little social progress as wealth continued to trickle up... Clinton's not a liberal, Dubya isn't a conservative.
I really wish we could have some better descriptive norms in terms of politics. This "left/right" crap dumbs the process down and is detrimental to informing people about the parties or candidates they support.
I'm very disappointed in Dubya's economic policies. Government spending has gone up more in 3 years of Dubya than it did in 8 years of Clinton.
...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
I think pre-emption... offensive actions without cause... is radical. It's no different than any other country who has invaded another... **STRUGGLING NO GODWIN LAW HERE**Except for the part about Dubya being radical in his use of the military - I agree.
So you must view Clinton's use of the military in Kosovo as being radical also.Originally posted by Sava
I think pre-emption... offensive actions without cause... is radical. It's no different than any other country who has invaded another... **STRUGGLING NO GODWIN LAW HERE**
...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
I do...Originally posted by Caligastia
So you must view Clinton's use of the military in Kosovo as being radical also.
You get an A+ for consistency then...Originally posted by Sava
I do...
...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
Yes, except they will betray their constituency by doing what Georgie did, going right. Georege betray the center by doing the same thing. You know, just once, I'd like to see American politics go left.Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
No moreso than the claims of the elite 8.
Funny no matter who is elected they will betray their core support group as they adopt centrist policies.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
You don't think American politics have gone left in the last 50 years???Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, except they will betray their constituency by doing what Georgie did, going right. Georege betray the center by doing the same thing. You know, just once, I'd like to see American politics go left.
...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty
You're 70 and 40 years too late, Che.
Che is nearing 40, meaning that he probably became politically active/aware around 1980. So he, personally, hasn't seen a Leftward shift in American politics.Originally posted by Caligastia
You don't think American politics have gone left in the last 50 years???
Except for the part about Dubya being radical in his use of the military - I agree.
I'm very disappointed in Dubya's economic policies.
Politics suk. Let money govern, since it already rules!!!
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