DESIGN: Unit Values

[LemurMadness]

Originally posted by Tellius
Hi,

So, one possible solution could be, to also add the 'defense' bonus to the 'attack' values of the defending stack (although that makes explaining this seemingly contradictory solution in the readme quite difficult)?

Someone mentioned that the defense bonus will vanish once the player attacks, won't the attack bonus dissapear when it defends back? Sounds crazy, but I theorize that

[Ekmek]

the code i posted above shows everything yo get as an attacker, likewise as a defender. it starts with the base value then adds all those modifiers.

so adding defense and attack values would just require duplicating the code to both sections. but i'm pretty sure that will affect some balance issues.

[Tellius]

Total Overhaul

Hi,

If you're talking total overhaul of the system, many things can be contemplated - although I think they will have to be in a mod being too different.

I love to play strategic wargames (boardgames), and there are several things that make attack difficult.

First of all, the defender can use HeadQuarters. Almost all wargames have them. They can bring in reserves during the enemy's move. For instance, a level 3 HQ can bring in 3 armies as reserves, but they have to be either stacked with the HQ or at a maximum distance fo 3 tiles.
Of course, HQ's can also be used in attack in wargames. If you successfully attack an enemy army with one of your stacks containing a HQ, you get an extra move called exploitation to go for yet another attack.

Another easy way to make attacking more difficult is adding supply lines - also in almost every wargame.
Each attacking unit has to be abel to trace an uniterrupted path of tiles to one of his home cities or fortifications. If one of the defending units is on a supply line, or blocks it with his ZOC, the supply is cut and the attacking units get some of its values deducted for instance, can't heal etc etc.

Just a few possible ways to make attacking more difficult, but probably very, very difficult to implement for the coders

Tellius

[Tamerlin]

Re: Total Overhaul

Originally posted by Tellius
Hi,

If you're talking total overhaul of the system, many things can be contemplated - although I think they will have to be in a mod being too different.

I love to play strategic wargames (boardgames), and there are several things that make attack difficult.

First of all, the defender can use HeadQuarters. Almost all wargames have them. They can bring in reserves during the enemy's move. For instance, a level 3 HQ can bring in 3 armies as reserves, but they have to be either stacked with the HQ or at a maximum distance fo 3 tiles.
Of course, HQ's can also be used in attack in wargames. If you successfully attack an enemy army with one of your stacks containing a HQ, you get an extra move called exploitation to go for yet another attack.

Another easy way to make attacking more difficult is adding supply lines - also in almost every wargame.
Each attacking unit has to be abel to trace an uniterrupted path of tiles to one of his home cities or fortifications. If one of the defending units is on a supply line, or blocks it with his ZOC, the supply is cut and the attacking units get some of its values deducted for instance, can't heal etc etc.

Just a few possible ways to make attacking more difficult, but probably very, very difficult to implement for the coders

Tellius

I like to play wargames, be them paper or PC ones, especially Operational and Strategical ones... but CtP2, as all Civilization like games (4X) are not wargames. The scale is Grand Strategy and we should not bother about "details". As far as CtP2 is concerned, Units are Armies or at the very least Divisions if not Regiments (the chain of command and the HQs are built in), turns are several years long and tiles are tens of kilometers. All is about a matter of balance and not about a matter of individual unit stats... at least I think so.

The overhaul, if necessary, should IMO keep these datas in mind. If not, I think that we have a lot of chances to go the wrong way.

I don't think it is necessary to change many things. If we can't change the way the AI is using its units, we just have to improve the efficiency of the current use.

Can we change the rule and allow the AI units to earn a terrain defensive bonus when they attack (if we don't want to cheat, remember that the human player should also benefit from this rule)? Isn't it enough to increase the Defensive value of the Defensive units? The problem is that the player would also benefit from these changes.

I feel a bit concerned because a lot of changes are made. though changes are not a problem in themselves, the said changes are not centralized in a document explaining them.

[LemurMadness]

Originally posted by Maquiladora


That does seem a bit out of place. 3 new units seems too much for one advance, if we compare to the rest of the tech tree anyway.

Ideally we would move Samurai to an advance that itself requires Iron Working. Unfortunately the only earliest advances that require Iron Working are Cannon Making, Printing Press or Modern Metallurgy. Those all seem too late though.

I would probably then put the Samurai at Bureaucracy (civil servant), and make Iron Working a prerequisite (instead of Feudalism) for Bureaucracy. This way, you can go a new form of government and the Samurai, or you go for the more aggressive Knight and Pikemen.

Well, according to Wikipedia (yeah I use it a lot to ), the Samurai were formed while Japan's bureaucracy, not before. I would agree making the Samurai avaliable in Bureaucracy, since it's sort of a passive advance and it's prerequisites are Jurisprudence and Feudalism.

I'd say the Legion should have 20a 10d and the Samurai 30a 15d.

[Maquiladora]

Re: Re: Total Overhaul

Originally posted by Tamerlin

Can we change the rule and allow the AI units to earn a terrain defensive bonus when they attack (if we don't want to cheat, remember that the human player should also benefit from this rule)? Isn't it enough to increase the Defensive value of the Defensive units? The problem is that the player would also benefit from these changes.

Another way could be to increase the defence of terrain. Like forest defence bonus to +100% instead of +50%. Unfortunately this still means you dont get the defence bonus all of the time, but it does have more of an effect on the outcome, as it should.

I feel a bit concerned because a lot of changes are made. though changes are not a problem in themselves, the said changes are not centralized in a document explaining them.

It might be an idea then for someone (perhaps me if noone else wants to) to write a quick readme of all the changes to put in the AE Mod folder.

[Maquiladora]

Originally posted by LemurMadness

Well, according to Wikipedia (yeah I use it a lot to ), the Samurai were formed while Japan's bureaucracy, not before. I would agree making the Samurai avaliable in Bureaucracy, since it's sort of a passive advance and it's prerequisites are Jurisprudence and Feudalism.

I'd say the Legion should have 20a 10d and the Samurai 30a 15d.

Does this mean the Legion would upgrade the Warrior then, and not the Hoplite?

Warrior > Legion > Samurai > Infantryman
Hoplite > Pikemen > Infantryman

Like this?

[Ekmek]

Originally posted by Maquiladora


Does this mean the Legion would upgrade the Warrior then, and not the Hoplite?

Warrior > Legion > Samurai > Infantryman
Hoplite > Pikemen > Infantryman

Like this?

i think that looks better

[LemurMadness]

Originally posted by Maquiladora


Does this mean the Legion would upgrade the Warrior then, and not the Hoplite?

Warrior > Legion > Samurai > Infantryman
Hoplite > Pikemen > Infantryman

Like this?

Uhhm, what I really have in mind is this:

(multipurpose early defense, attack and scout) Warrior
(attack) Legion > Samurai > ?[enabled by a new advance: infantry tactics? skirmisher? musketeer?] > Marine - Paratrooper > ?[HoverInfantry? extra turn when unloading?]
(defense) Hoplite > Pikemen > InfantryMan > MachineGunner > ?[Plasmatica?*]
(flank) Knight > Cavalry > Tank > FusionTank
(ranged) Archer > Longbowman
(siege/ranged) Catapult > Cannon > Artillery > MobileSAM > WarWalker

but yeah, that should be the upgrade line

* = http://ben.bacchus.com.au/vpcblog/images/civctp4.PNG

[Maquiladora]

Good suggestions there. So basically separating the Warrior from anything. In terms of gameplay it wont affect AI a lot, as they usually start with Hoplites, Archers or both, which should both be priorities over Warriors in their build lists.

The attack row are all special forces except Legion, perhaps they should be too?

Skirmisher sounds like a good suggestion, but depends on which era. Somewhere between 1800-1900AD would fit, but we need a good quality sprite. http://www.ctp2.info/database/sprite...land/infantry/

[Ekmek]

Just checking on this: you guys know how to add the new upgradeflag and what it does right?

it tells the game what unit to look for and it also makes the old unit obsolete (not requiring a tech)

and my old code you couldn't have any units that were available at the same time as upgrades or it would cause a crah.

but ithink Martin fixed that.

[LemurMadness]

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Good suggestions there. So basically separating the Warrior from anything. In terms of gameplay it wont affect AI a lot, as they usually start with Hoplites, Archers or both, which should both be priorities over Warriors in their build lists.

The attack row are all special forces except Legion, perhaps they should be too?

Sounds nice, but then the Knight should lose it (as the Knight was a Special Force because it was the attack unit of Medieval Ages).

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Skirmisher sounds like a good suggestion, but depends on which era. Somewhere between 1800-1900AD would fit, but we need a good quality sprite. http://www.ctp2.info/database/sprite...land/infantry/

I have absolutelly no idea. Seems no sprite could fit well, maybe the Musketeer (CTP1) ?


I wish I could find a unit like this: http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/f.../3GS083105.jpg

[As for the list i've made before, that was just a compilation of ideas I think it should help improve the game, I don't intent to influence anyone to think the game will be something like "Lemur'sCTP2" or something, it's just ideas and I just want to know what do you guys think about them ]

[Maquiladora]

Dammit Lemur, stop editing your posts

Yes, the Musketeer could also fit.

Theres also a decision on the upgrade path, as you cant upgrade to a Marine or a Paratrooper. IMO it should upgrade to a Marine.

As you edited in your post, theres possibly a gap requiring another defender for the late game, if we're trying to fill the game out with each type anyway.

(multipurpose early defense, attack and scout) Warrior
(attack) Legion > Samurai > Musketeer/Skirmisher? > Marine > HoverInfantry
(defense) Hoplite > Pikemen > InfantryMan > MachineGunner > Plasmatica?
(flank) Knight > Cavalry > Tank > FusionTank
(ranged) Archer > Longbowman
(siege/artillery) Catapult > Cannon > Artillery > MobileSAM > WarWalker

I have absolutelly no idea. Seems no sprite could fit well, maybe the Musketeer but it's just an InfantryMan with different helmet...

I could attempt to convert the CtP2 Infantryman to have different colours, but i cant change anything else, it would take too long.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by E
and my old code you couldn't have any units that were available at the same time as upgrades or it would cause a crah.

but ithink Martin fixed that.

Probably it is just a won't crash fix, maybe it just takes the first unit from the list or something like that, so you better take care.

-Martin

[LemurMadness]

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Dammit Lemur, stop editing your posts

Sorry, it's the typos and the mixed ideas

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Yes, the Musketeer could also fit.

I could attempt to convert the CtP2 Infantryman to have different colours, but i cant change anything else, it would take too long.

How about a blue Musketeer? would look different enough from the InfantryMan.

Originally posted by Maquiladora
Theres also a decision on the upgrade path, as you cant upgrade to a Marine or a Paratrooper. IMO it should upgrade to a Marine.

Oh, didn't knew about this, would be nice if the game would prompt to choose an upgrade.

Originally posted by Maquiladora
As you edited in your post, theres possibly a gap requiring another defender for the late game, if we're trying to fill the game out with each type anyway.

(multipurpose early defense, attack and scout) Warrior
(attack) Legion > Samurai > Musketeer/Skirmisher? > Marine > HoverInfantry
(defense) Hoplite > Pikemen > InfantryMan > MachineGunner > Plasmatica?
(flank) Knight > Cavalry > Tank > FusionTank
(ranged) Archer > Longbowman
(siege/artillery) Catapult > Cannon > Artillery > MobileSAM > WarWalker

Yup, that was what I was thinking about, every age with their own type of units. I guess Plasmatica would fit that gap. (It was my fave unit from CtP1, nice sprite). Thought Plasma Weaponry comes avaliable later in the game... Unless the HoverInfantry goes to defense and Plasmatica to attack.