Civ2 editor style or Civ3?

[Jaguar]

There's a fundamental difference in how the Civ2 and Civ3 scenarios are created. Civ2 scenarios, for those that never played it, are made by editing a game in progress with cheat mode. For example, if you want to expend a unit's movement points, you can just click on it and press spacebar. The scenario editor was the civ2 exe, and scenario files and save files were virtually equivalent.

We all know how the civ3 editor works.

I think the civ2 editor works better for creating scenarios, because you could basically make any concievable starting position, but it's not as good for editing rules and stuff.

They should be hybridized somehow. Perhaps there should be a rules editor, and then you can load a rules file and make the scenario in a civ2 style editor.


Thoughts?

[Kuciwalker]

C3, definately. C2's editor was a pain.

[Kuciwalker]

I would like a C2 style editor included, but I also want a C3 one :greedy:

[LDiCesare]

We all know how the civ3 editor works.

I don't. Though I know how Civ2 and CtP2 editors work. Could you provide some details?

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

I don't. Though I know how Civ2 and CtP2 editors work. Could you provide some details?

You have pretty expansive rule-editing abilities. However, when it comes to making the map, it feels a little limited. You can't set movement points, or how many sheilds a city has towards something, and a bunch of things like that. In Civ2 you were kind of playing the scenario while you set it up, so everything you could do in a game you could also do while creating a scenario. You aren't "playing" in the Civ3 editor.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
I don't. Though I know how Civ2 and CtP2 editors work. Could you provide some details?

Almost everything is editable - it isn't like C2 where, for example, there were X wonders and Y units and Z techs, and each wonder's effect was hardcoded, and such. You can add almost anything, even (technically) veterency levels. You can change which units are barbarians, etc.

[Brent]

Forced to choose one, I choose 3. Otherwise, I want a hybrid as described by JW and Tass. I hated it when the game advanced against my will. To me, 3 is more functional than 2. It's much easier to create new civs, etc in 3. One thing I tried to do in 2 that I hope to try in 3 sometime, is an approximation of Chess. I know there are major things about it that would never work, but I still find it fun. I want it to be easier to get the chess units to keep from disbanding in their Chess starting positions.

[POTUS]

Both!!!

[Henrik]

Civ 2 as civ 3s doesnt really allow you to do anything. Civ 2's was simpler and allowed for more stuff to be done...
Obviously one could build on it though, all things with civ 3s editors weren't bad...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
A hybrid.

Civ3 for its simplicity,
Civ2 for it's functionality.

Depending on your point of view, C3's is FAR more functional. C2's is better at setting up units and stuff, but C3's is FAR better at modifying the rules.

[POTUS]

Yes, well, if you want to build just a scenario, Civ 2 works better. A modpack is easier with Civ 3.

[Henrik]

Did civ 3 let you change all in game dialouges? Civ 2 did and I must say it's most usefull when making scenarios (you can for instance use air units as something other than air units (some sort of ranged unit, in civ 2 this has been done for torpedos and cannon balls) and have the popups concerning them state things to support this illusion)...

[The Slayer]

As many said, both, I would like to see a Civ3 editor that when I finished it have a "test mode", so in the editor I can play that I just have created (in debug mode of course) without load Civ4.

And also, I would like to see a better managament of the internal errors and crashes of the game. Better saying, I dont want any crashes! , it could be nice to have in the test mode a "file/folder" detector that told us what folders or files are missing, and make us come back to the editor, without any crashes.

I think this crashes are the reason why many persons think it twice before venturing with modding or making scenarios.

[muxec]

First: Top-down editor (instead of isometry) will be much better.
Second: Ability to edit almost everything even in v1.0.
Third: Ability to give special racial traits.

[Brent]

From my point of view, C2 doesn't allow you to do anything. I guess what I like to do can be best labelled Modding.

[DarkCloud]

Brent- I suppose you never purchased the Fantastic Worlds Expansion

and even the original game coudl be altered enormously!

You could alter EVERYTHING even without purchasing the expansion- the expansion merely included an editor that made changing things much easier.

Did you ever play Civ II?

[Brent]

I still have the Civilization 2 Multiplayer Gold edition on the computer I am using, which includes everything from Fantastic Worlds, right? I guess my deal is Civ 3 makes things easier than in Civ 2. Then, so far most of what I've done is add city names and a little bit of adding new civs. Come to think of it, I did those things in Civ 2 too. But I have plans to create new governments and maybe technologies, improvements, and such. I guess this was possible in Civ 2 too, but it looks easier in Civ 3, and the way Civ 3 does it is more appealing to me.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Brent- I suppose you never purchased the Fantastic Worlds Expansion

and even the original game coudl be altered enormously!

But not to half the extent to which we can modify C3.

[Fosse]

Originally posted by skywalker


But not to half the extent to which we can modify C3.

How can you back that up? The Civ 3 modding community, due to poor editor capabilities and the extreme difficulties in adding units and other graphics, is limited to tinkering with the rules and occasionally adding new governments that are hardly distinct from the current ones. And after only a few years it is already dwindling to just a few dedicated people.

The Civ 2 modding community is still going strong after all of these years. Scenarios in Civ 2 are almost limitless, in both concept and number. Detailed historical ones, creative fantasy ones. There are more Civ 2 projects going on in the forums than for Civ 3... even with Conquests out.

And everything you can modify in Civ 3 was open to modification in Civ 2, just via text files instead of a tabbed editor window.

All of this speaks to me as testament that Civ 2 was simply a better game to mod.

[Kuciwalker]

C2 had TWO scenario editing abilities that C3 did not: an extremely limited (though extremely useful) events system, and a bit more diplomacy editing. Because C3's editor has been built up in a series of patches and XP's, there hasn't been nearly as much time with a full scenario editor. WRT rules, C3 is infinitely more customizable. So much about units was hardcoded in C2, and virtually NOTHING is hardcoded in C3.

[Kuciwalker]

And everything you can modify in Civ 3 was open to modification in Civ 2, just via text files instead of a tabbed editor window.

Blatently false. Look at how much you can customize units and improvements and wonders and techs in C3. Look how much you can customize units and improvements and wonders and techs in C2. Things like barbarians, free tech, map trading, etc are ALL HARDCODED in C2 and ALL EDITABLE in C3.

[Brent]

store Civs each in a separate file. Be able to create separate halls of fame either for individual scenarios, for groups of them, or one for all scenarios.

[DarkCloud]

So much about units was hardcoded in C2, and virtually NOTHING is hardcoded in C3.

You obviously didn't understand how units worked-

You could even add 8-10 extra units and you could CHANGE EVERY UNIT in civ II!

and you could change their every stat. It would only take about 2-3 hours to change everything...

and every tech was modifiable!

and all the images were changeable!

all the terrain!

[Roman]

I definitely prefer the Civ II IN GAME editor to the Civ III one. Scenario creation was much easier in Civ II, since you played out the scenario creation. Customizability was also decent with rules.txt and other rules files allowing for substantial customization of almost everything. That is not to say that even more customizability is not desirable, but the editor should follow Civ IIs example and be in game!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DarkCloud

You obviously didn't understand how units worked-

You could even add 8-10 extra units and you could CHANGE EVERY UNIT in civ II!

and you could change their every stat. It would only take about 2-3 hours to change everything...

and every tech was modifiable!

and all the images were changeable!

all the terrain!

WRONG WRONG WRONG

First, IIRC you could add THREE units. Though that's unimportant - the fact is, it was hardcoded. Yes, you could change their stats, but their were a LOT of hardcoded EFFECTS attached to various units (Musketmen did some weird stuff with making things obscelete, and the barbarian units were hardcoded, plus stuff about which units were horse units, as some 2-move units were immune to the pikeman bonus).

Every tech could be modified as to its cost, name, and the prereqs. However, there were special EFFECTS that were hardcoded to certain techs and the number of techs was hardcoded.

Terrain? I suggest you look in the Terrain tab on the C3 rules editor

The images are modifiable too, you know

And just to cinch it, look at improvements and wonders. Yup, they were SO more editable in C2 (name, cost, prereq, and upkeep IIRC).

[GodKing]

I would like a combo of both..... I used civ2 a lot, but without being able to do events, I never got into civ3 mod making.

[POTUS]

Originally posted by skywalker
Blatently false. Look at how much you can customize units and improvements and wonders and techs in C3. Look how much you can customize units and improvements and wonders and techs in C2. Things like barbarians, free tech, map trading, etc are ALL HARDCODED in C2 and ALL EDITABLE in C3.

Then, I must say Mr. skywlker, you have not played enough Civ 2, especially scenarios and have never hex-edited anything. What you said about the hard-coded items are there, just hard to find if you are just messing around. In MGE, 11 unit slots were empty. 22 in TOT, and 3 in vanilla Civ.

[Kuciwalker]

Are you saying you could edit improvement and wonder effects? And C3 has - guess what - an INFINITE number of open unit slots (ok, it's probably actually something like 2^32 or something ).