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  • Firaxis: Corruption Breakdown

    This is the "official" announcement on Corruption:

    FIRST: Save Games CAN be continued but it will take a turn or so for the corruption to recalculate.

    WHY WAS CORRUPTION CHANGED?????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

    The formula that calculated Corruption (calculateCorruptionandWaste()), which includes the Forbidden Palace (FP) adjustments, was changed in C3C for several reasons:

    1) It was necessary to expand the "Reduce Corruption" Small Wonder flag to allow MULTIPLE instances with this flag. The original formula was designed for just 1 Small Wonder with this ability (THIS design limitation was the #1 cause for adjustments to the algorithm)

    2) Addition of Specialists that could adjust Corruption.

    It should be noted that no values have changed and that every part of the calculation algorithms are IDENTICAL to Civ3/PTW (NOTE: I'm Diffing the code with 1.27 PTW's source ) EXCEPT those areas where MULTIPLE FP's have to be accounted for and the Ranking System.

    The bug with the Forbidden Palace only being useful when local to your palace is caused by this line of code:

    vectorDist(pRealCapital->getX(), pRealCapital->getY(), pLoopCity->getX(), pLoopCity->getY())

    This is determining cityrank based on JUST the location of your "RealCapital". With the multiple FP setup this line of code should be:

    vectorDist(pClosestCapital->getX(), pClosestCapital->getY(), pLoopCity->getX(), pLoopCity->getY())


    With this issue fixed (as well as some other bugs ie: SPHQ always giving the bonus) the corruption system will work as redesigned. I realize that the system acts different from Civ3 & PTW, but please give it a chance before making your final decision. This system will benefit the game on all sides, from Diff Balancing to AI. Your feedback (yes the vocal people are the ones who get heard most... you have to be more vocal if you want to be heard!!) will ultimately decide how it functions in the Release Patch.

    I do want to get some clarification on the additional variables from Mike B. Once I have it I'll post the information and explanation on how the additional variables are affecting the ranking system. I will also make an effort to include detailed information in the pre-patch release posting.


    EDIT: I will also include MODders information and set it up for easy switching between versions.


    Thanks,

    Jesse

  • #2
    Thanks, Jesse.

    I'm not sure I understand, so here goes:

    The FP isn't working quite right in the beta patch, because the corruption system is miscalculating city ranking around the FP. As I understand it, if you fix this, it will result in a FP that works pretty much the way it did in PTW (full-power second "core" of cities around it).

    Am I getting it?

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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    • #3
      That's what I read.
      City rank is currently not taking into account the nearest capitol, but only the "real" capitol.

      At least, that's how I read it.
      Which also sounds like - in addition to a fix giving you two cores - Communists should be able to get 3 cores, but only while in Communism. That could be a handy boost, no?


      And yes, thank you Jesse for taking the time to clarify this.


      Edit: Looking at those functions, I'm not seeing anything that would _seem_ to do the funky math that kills RCP... is that somewhere else, or was the "RCP bug/fix" just a side effect of this bug?
      Last edited by ducki; December 30, 2003, 11:46.
      "Just once, do me a favor, don't play Gray, don't even play Dark... I want to see Center-of-a-Black-Hole Side!!! " - Theseus nee rpodos

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      • #4
        Ducki,

        it sounds like the function just delivers a "distance number" that is converted into a "rank number" by a function further on in the code. The RCP fix was probably a fix to that rank-assigning function further on -- not to the function call, but to the code within the function. The old rank-assigning function probably sorted cities by vectorDist and for simplicity's sake gave all tied cities the lowest rank in the tied group. I bet the programmer who made it that way said, "heck, it would delay this stage of the programming to implement a different tie-breaking system, and besides... nobody would ever be obsessed and have enough free time to reverse-engineer and exploit this... right?!?" :-)

        I kinda can't blame him/her.

        Regarding 3 cores in Communism -- I thought Communism had FLAT corruption and thus no cores?!? There may be "invisible" cores, however -- with those cores' beneficial effect being expressed as lower corruption after "flattening." In any case, the FPs each raise the OCN, helping fight corruption if you have a high city count (i.e. potentially putting you back under the OCN when you were over, which is a Very Good Thing). But I have a hunch the "invisible cores" are the real providers of FPs' benefits under communism... I really should check Alexman's thread before stating this, but I'm too lazy.

        JesseSmith,

        You almost have my gratitude... if it's not a state secret: how SHOULD the system work when redesigned? I'm glad to hear that FP's apparently ARE still meant to lower cityrank in their surroundings -- but it's obvious you HAVE done SOMETHING that you think may be controversial -- out with it! We'll find out soon enough anyway!

        USC
        "'Lingua franca' je latinsky vyraz s vyznamem "jazyk francouzsky", ktery dnes vetsinou odkazuje na anglictinu," rekl cesky.

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        • #5
          The whole reason we added the Secret Police HQ was to give Communism the added benefit of having a 3rd Corruption Reducing building so that it could be this massive empire. The fact that its broken is appalling!!! One of the disadvantages of being human - mistake prone, if only I had that drone! =)

          I will go into more detail on the final workings of the RCP once I'm sure I have the details correct. The gist of it is that the distribution will be based on distance from "capital" instead of by how you place your initial expansion cities

          Comment


          • #6
            First of all, a big thumbs up to Jesse and Firaxis for this communication!

            Originally posted by JesseSmith
            This system will benefit the game on all sides, from Diff Balancing to AI. Your feedback (yes the vocal people are the ones who get heard most... you have to be more vocal if you want to be heard!!) will ultimately decide how it functions in the Release Patch.
            How can a whole new second core help the AI? It can't, unless the AI knows how to rush a FP far away from its palace. The current 1.12 implementation gives a boost to the AI in the late game, where it most needs it. Builder or warmongerer, the late game becomes more exciting. Chalk me up as a vocal person for the v1.12 FP implementation!

            I think jshelr put it well in another thread:

            Originally posted by jshelr
            Congrats to the folks at Firaxis, IMO.

            My impression about the new FP is very favorable, in fact, extremely favorable. I think the FP change interacts with other changes to produce a new and better game, a more balanced game that makes simple warmongering much harder.

            Size no longer necessarily is the best path to tech superiority and there may be a very important improvement in the tradeoff between going for an SS win and going for a domination win. (I mean that going for domination, you may find yourself screwed on the tech front and actually lose a game or two.) This is a tremendous improvement that makes the later stages of the game much more fun.

            On the domination path, only your core cities will really be significant unit producers and war weariness will shove you off democracy unless you fully use your bag of war tricks to reduce the impact of WW. (Get the AI to attack, no AI units in your territory after every turn, none of your units in AI territory after every turn, etc.) It's worth emphasizing that you can no longer simply go to republic and pay little attention to WW while you slug it out without much lost efficiency versus a democracy government. You have to use democracy to both cut corruption, without the FP to bail you out easily, and also to cut the cost of maintaining units in a big industrial era army.

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            • #7
              Thanks for the heads up, Jesse!
              The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

              Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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              • #8
                Now that is what I like to see. Someone giving us the facts as best they can. I don't care how it works, just so I know it does, so I can plan accordingly. I mean I don't care iif there is a better way or it is broken, IF I can at least understand it.

                It sounds like it is going in the right direction. Thanks for the update.

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                • #9
                  Thank you Jesse.

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                  • #10
                    Many thanks for the updates!

                    Catt

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                    • #11
                      Thanks Jesse!

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                      • #12


                        Firaxis has to be the most responsive company EVER

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                        • #13
                          Thanks, Jesse.

                          This thread and the other ("Firaxis: Beta Patch info") should be topped. Mods?
                          I watched you fall. I think I pushed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Definitely agree with the toppage - looks like the ultra-responsive folks from Galactic Civilizations have competition from Firaxis in the "response and feedback" department now.

                            Very good things for the future of the Civ series.
                            Friedrich Psitalon
                            Admin, Civ4Players Ladder
                            Consultant, Firaxis Games

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
                              Definitely agree with the toppage - looks like the ultra-responsive folks from Galactic Civilizations have competition from Firaxis in the "response and feedback" department now.
                              Yeah, it seems the way Brad Wardell & his team are working the updates for their game GalCiv has influenced Firaxis in a positive way ( monthly updates, wow... ). I just hope for the day when corruption is going to be fixed for good, it stays that way and, well...anyway there'll always be some whining from the minority about it. The devs can listen to them if they want, but they choose the engine they want. I don't mind if the FP is less powerful than a regular Palace, not being a full second core, just make it useful that's all. Once the SPHQ is fixed, as well as Civilopedia entries related to corruption buildings and all, then everything's perfect for me ( anyway the experience is already more than satisfying like 97 % of civers out there having never complained ).

                              Now instead of tweaking the editor for corruption calculations, I prefer to see modders making new scenarios.
                              The art of mastering:"la Maîtrise des caprices du subconscient avant tout".

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