Project - Apolyton game

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ADG
I wont make the game in Java... I started in java, but since nobody gave a hand I decided to stop, and I wont return to it, since I'm tired of Java...

Already? If that's the case, you're not cut out to be a programmer.

[Adagio]

I decided to stop because I wasn't interested in doing in Java alone... If people back then wanted to help with the java version, then it would probably have been done by now, but I'm just not interested in programming in java...

...and after programming a little in VB my computer 'burned down' so I couldn't program for several weeks...

...and for the past few months I haven't had any time programming, because I was busy programming school project...



Sure, I'm not exactly a fast programmer, and not a quick learner either, if that's what you meant...

VB isn't bad, but it lacks power.

Where exactly does it lack power? From what I've seen there's more possibilities in VB than in java...

[alva]

I don't see you have any need for a debugger anyway, alva

I do...I do...I do

VB.net is OO too, it's just easier to use ( again, so far)

Maybe i should add that so far, I've only been doing applets.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by ADG
...but I'm just not interested in programming in java...

More and more programming tasks will be done in Java, though.

Originally posted by ADG
Sure, I'm not exactly a fast programmer, and not a quick learner either, if that's what you meant...

Not that. You can use more fortitude, though.

Originally posted by ADG
Where exactly does it lack power? From what I've seen there's more possibilities in VB than in java...

You can't build Applets for starters. You could with ActiveX, but there are security problems and ActiveX is not cross browser. Then there are servlets, JSPs, and beans.

Java also got things such as Xerces (XML parser), Jakarta, and a whole mess of other things you can just drop in and use.

[Adagio]

But aren't most of these things only used for web-stuff?
I've used most of those things (don't know Jakarta), and for now I've only seen this being used for web-stuff, not real applications...

[vovan]

Pfft, everyone knows Python is the way of the future.

JK, of course.

Seriously, though, while IMHO, language debates are mostly about personal preferences, and never change the mind of any party involved, I'll bite.

Java... To be honest, I love it and I hate it. I love it, because it gives me so much pre-built! Need to parse an XML file - it's all there; need threading - it's all there; need networking - it's all there; need GUI - it's all there. There are just so many classes, that whatever you need to do - chances are it's already been done. For you, it's then just a matter of putting the pieces together. As such, Java is great for rapid development of small and / or prototype applications.

On the other hand, I hate it. Despite the latest improvements, the API is still a bloody convoluted mess. Deprecated functions and classes, and changes of standards abound. Despite the latest attempts at standardization, there is still a lot of ways to do any one thing, and most of them are wrong.

Next - garbage collection. In a word, it sucks. You know how they told you couldn't have memory leaks in Java? They lied. If you are not careful with memory, you'll leak, and you will crash and burn. System.gc()? Doesn't work. As per the white-papers, it is a mere 'hint' to Java to garbage collect. It won't work if Java doesn't deem the amount of memory left low enough. The thing will still stop at the most critical moment in your app, lock everything up and garbage collect.

Have you ever tried to write a game in Java? I have, and it was one of the worst experiences in my life. It was a programming project for college last semester, and we had to write a fairly big game. In Java. One of the teams had huge problems with memory. The asked Java for 512 MB, and still ran out of memory every now and then. Granted, that's an extreme example, and pretty bad programming on their part, but it is still pretty illustrative of Java. It's garbage collection simply cannot handle cross-references, or even vectors of objects properly.

One of these days, open your favourite Java application in a profiler, and see how much memory the VM takes. I ran WebSphere like that recently. 150 MB. It's a bloody HTTP server! It shouldn't take more than 10MB tops. That and its slow as hell.

Java. Heh. Even VB is better for writing games.

PS: Oh yeah, have you seen Java 3D API? Don't even get me started on that.

[alva]

[obligatoryYetInterested]

What your opinion on Java 3D API?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by vovan
On the other hand, I hate it. Despite the latest improvements, the API is still a bloody convoluted mess. Deprecated functions and classes, and changes of standards abound.

Sure, but that's because new versions have to be backward compatible, so it's messy. If you want a clean language, try Smalltalk or Oberon.

Originally posted by vovan
Despite the latest attempts at standardization, there is still a lot of ways to do any one thing, and most of them are wrong.

There should be many ways to do any one thing. Even though some ways are superior than others.

Originally posted by vovan
Next - garbage collection. In a word, it sucks. You know how they told you couldn't have memory leaks in Java? They lied. If you are not careful with memory, you'll leak, and you will crash and burn.

Still, having automatic gabage collection is better than not having any. At least you would have a measure of failsafe just in case you forget, unlike C++. In fact, a lot of commercial Wintel applications leak memory (some faster than others) so eventually you need to reboot.

Originally posted by vovan
The thing will still stop at the most critical moment in your app, lock everything up and garbage collect.

Hm... unless the apps are real time, there's no such thing as "most critical moment," no?

Originally posted by vovan
Granted, that's an extreme example, and pretty bad programming on their part, but it is still pretty illustrative of Java.

Same thing can occur just easily, if not easier, in C or C++. I think it's mostly bad programming.

Originally posted by vovan
It's garbage collection simply cannot handle cross-references, or even vectors of objects properly.

Cross references?

Originally posted by vovan
One of these days, open your favourite Java application in a profiler, and see how much memory the VM takes. I ran WebSphere like that recently. 150 MB. It's a bloody HTTP server! It shouldn't take more than 10MB tops. That and its slow as hell.

Websphere is a beans server IIRC.

Originally posted by vovan
Java. Heh. Even VB is better for writing games.

Clearly, it depends on programming style and how good you are with the language. There are a number of games written in Java. Granted, they aren' exactly fast, but they show games are doable.

Of course, nothing beats assembly.

Originally posted by vovan
PS: Oh yeah, have you seen Java 3D API? Don't even get me started on that.

At least they tried to put out a 3D API, instead of leaving you out on your own