The Romans, the Early Game, and C3C

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Alright. So I'm back to my plan of winning as every civ - yes, all 31, in the epic game on Monarch level.

Don't laugh. I switched to Monarch from Regent right before C3C came out and won two games easily, leading me to think it would be the switch to Emperor that made things really difficult.

But after playing Roman game after Roman game over this last week, I've come to the conclusion that the tactics I relied on might be less reliable now, or at least, must be implemented in a new way.

For a brief recap, the winning strat I had found in the "old game" (PTW) was: Build a shunbungaload of veteran warriors. Save about ~1000 gold. Upgrade to legionaries and use those bad boys to conquer ~3 neighbors, while slowly phasing in horsemen, knights and cavalry. The only ancient era wonders that really mattered to me were the Great Library, which always brought me about 4 techs and allowed me to eventually get in the lead, and the HG, which wasn't necessary but very, very nice indeed.

Eventually (generally too late) I would switch out of despotism, and the game would be more or less "won". Of course, I fought all those great cavalry wars, just to watch my empire grow.

Well, now things seem changed. First of all, there's ALL those wonders. Where does one start? A number of the new wonders are good - I finally built the Statue of Zeus and was VERY pleased with the AC unit.

But with all these new wonders, the wonder RACE itself is simply insane, and consequently, as all the AI civs tend to engage in it, I often end up with only the M of M built, which is nice, but I mean, come on. I can't even get my beloved GL built anymore...

...not that it would, seemingly, matter. I've focused almost entirely on trading techs and even running a deficit to stay in the lead, just desperately trying to get an SGL which I have yet to see even though I'm always first to Philosophy. Always. We're talking 15 games in a row where I get Philosophy first and no SGL.

In fact, I'm often - I'd say 50% of the time gaming - in the lead, tech wise, but I've yet to see one SGL. So, I've been prebuilding all these neat wonders. But I'm always beat out. In my last game, the Persians beat me to the Temple of Artemis by 4 TURNS!!!

As for the mass upgrade... well... it's a bit pricey now, isn't it? And combine that with the severe resource scarcity...

I often won't find iron, period, within my REXing ability - and I've been doing some good hardcore REXing. I will often find only one source of only one luxury, which really screws things up for me, badly, especially when I want to upgrade those warriors who have been protecting my cities and send them forth.

Well, anyhow, I'm trying a new strategy this weekend, and I'll see how it pans out. It involves these new tactics:

1. Keeping Philosophy to Myself. I got Philosophy and picked up Polytheism as the bonus tech. This time, I'm not going to trade these away. I don't have a single good city to build the Temple of Artemis with, really, but hopefully, with no other civ possessing these techs, they won't be building it anytime soon, either. Of course, I could still get beat overseas.

Normally I would trade these for HR, the tech that is going around that I don't have. Except for HR I have the tech lead, so I'm going to keep it I suppose.

2. Researching Construction at the 50-turn Rate. Construction at 90% research still seems ridiculously expensive. In my last game, it would've taken 35 turns, when I had a well-developed, large core. So this time, I'm going to research it at 50 turns and reap the financial rewards. I tried this in the last game and netted 25 gpt, which brought me to about ~2000 gold in reserves, enough money to upgrade my warriors (had I spent the time building them, but that's a different story).

The Greeks beat me to Construction by 8 turns, so I wasn't able to trade it - I don't think that'll be the case in my current game. The last game was the same one where I got beat to the Temple of Artemis and 1 city defected to the Zulus thus inciting me to throw in the towel.

3. Skip the Great Library Is it really useful anymore? Many debated it's usefulness in PTW, but I sure didn't. Now, I'm not sure how useful it is really. Still probably pretty useful, given I'm surrounded by neighbors. But I think I'd rather have the Temple of Artemis.

4. Use the Same Old Tactics Anyways In the end, I'll probably just try a mass upgrade to legionaries (using money saved by research Construction at 50 turns) and try to kick some rear. This depends on my ability to find iron of course. I currently don't have any. I might have to upgrade to horsemen, which would, of course, suck. But c'est la vie.

Would anyone like to comment on these plans? Glaring flaws I'm overlooking? Success stories of your own in the epic game since C3C was released?

Please bear in mind I'm playing huge continent worlds here, with the max number of civs.

BTW, one other thing I'd like to throw out: it's nice to have those curraghs, isn't it?

[vmxa1]

As I mention in another thread, do not trade any techs after the second tier. Do not sweat the GL, if you get it fine. The key wonder is Temple of Zeus. If you can get it you win. I would drop the Temple of Artemis way down. Those temples are temporary.

Mass upgrades are pricey and not needed if you get Zeus. Research at the highest rate you can afford at all times.

Use the Cuuagh to get to all the civs ASAP. No one can get you contacts for a long time and they will be loathed to go out to sea/ocean. To that end found your 2nd or 3rd city on the coast.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The only problem with your strategy is that it necessitates being near Ivory.

Trust me, if I'm near it, I'm gonna make building the SoZ a priority. Those ACs are awesome!!!

But... since you only get 1 every 5 turns... are they really better than a mass upgrade? To screw up a civilization, pretty badly, they'd be good... but to annex a civilization whole, as is my wont (especially now that MGLs cannot rush great wonders, thus somewhat downgrading the whole WW1-style leader-generating war tactic), you need more than a handful of troops, even if they're the awesome ACs.

[Arrian]

The wonder you should prioritize is the Pyramids. Not the GL. On monarch you should be able to keep up with or outresearch the AI (I'd say blow them away, but I'm trying to be concious of the fact that I usually play out nice river or lake starts, and you might be more diehard).

Zeus is nice. Very nice. If you get ivory, or can get it via trade, definitely build it. If not, don't sweat it.

I don't think Artemis is all that. Bah. I don't need no steeenking temples that disappear with education!

You're playing Rome. You're commercial. I would suggest this: Philosophy beeline, take CoL as your freebie. Writing should be the tech you trade away, but hang on to Philo and CoL until you can really get juicy things for them. Writing should hopefully bring in Iron Working. Alpha should hopefully have gotten you bronze and some of the other 1st tier techs.

After getting CoL, you need to decide whether or not you're going to be ready for republic soon. You several good cities (cities, not towns. Size 7+) if you want to switch to republic and still be able to have a good army. I'd aim to upgrade 10-15 warriors to legionaries (600-900 gold). If you don't have iron (you should know this by the time you trade away writing, I'd hope), the fallbacks are: chariot upgrade, or archer attack to get iron, followed by the 10-15 warrior to legionary upgrade, just a tad later.

If you're short on rivers/lakes, and thus cannot handle a republic switch, then I might suggest that you try to research and/or trade your way to at least Mysticism before going for Philo, so the freebie can be Polytheism... and then you go for Monarchy. That way you can get our of despotism but also support a larger army without having many (or any) 7+ cities.

In PTW, I often tried to hold off on my GA until I had a Forbidden built, even if it was a FP build near to my original core in preparation for a palace move via leader rushing to a far away spot. But under the current 3C3 corruption situation, forget that. I've still be building FPs in my Conquest games (partly out of habit, partly because I think having 2 small cores often still beats out one larger core... by a nose), but I'm not waiting for it anymore.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
The only problem with your strategy is that it necessitates being near Ivory.

Trust me, if I'm near it, I'm gonna make building the SoZ a priority. Those ACs are awesome!!!

But... since you only get 1 every 5 turns... are they really better than a mass upgrade? To screw up a civilization, pretty badly, they'd be good... but to annex a civilization whole, as is my wont (especially now that MGLs cannot rush great wonders, thus somewhat downgrading the whole WW1-style leader-generating war tactic), you need more than a handful of troops, even if they're the awesome ACs.

True, that is why I said IF (you get ivory). Mass upgrades are just not in my plans for ancient age, I won't have the money. I will do peice meal upgrades, as I get the money. You don't need many AC if you get an army. The fast heal and the movement of the AC allows me to roll over thoose ancient civs peacemeal. Vet AC have 5 HP's and elites have 6, enough said in that age.

I don't know if this will be available all the time as locations and setting will impact it. You always have to be prepared to do it a different way, that is why we have a brain and the AI does not.
We can adapt, if need be. No tactic works all the time, even with all the required conditions.

How many times have you had to chance in the past two years as the game changed? Anyway there is often another solution and it may be better. I doubt that there is only one right way.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

That's true. There is never only one right way.

But, on PTW, it seemed like the mass upgrade was, if not ALWAYS the right way, a very good way at least 80% of the time. Not so sure about that any more.

Thanks for the advice gentlemen. I'll be sure to test it out this weekend... meanwhile, I'm wondering if anyone is still giving the Romans a shot. They do start on the coast occassionally, and they get the curragh right off the bat, so they're almost a mil/com/seafaring civ, if you look at things that way...

I may save 1800 gold, slowly researching, I dunno, Construction and Monarchy, say, and do a 30 legionary upgrade, if I can do it in time to beat out the other civs to Feudalism... anyhow, point is, I won't slam down my mouse and storm out of the room next time the Incas build the T of A while the Greeks build the Great Wall while the Zulus build the Oracle while the Byzantines build the Great Library all the same turn... those legionaries can still take those wonders away, one would think...

[Arrian]

Well, the slow research/save up thing to do now is this:

Philo beeline (max), take CoL as freebie, research republic at 50 turn rate (1 scientist). 50 turns of 70-100% tax (depending on your luxury slider needs) ought to bring in a fair amount of cash.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Supposing I don't go with Republic, though?

What if I want to "broaden my house" a bit with loads o' Legionaries? In other words, switch to Monarchy and eventually to Rep/Democracy. I'm very comfortable with that playstyle, and I'm inclined to stay with it until I get used to all the other changes in this dang game... after all, I've been so aggreived by the ancient era I haven't played well into the middle ages on any of my games thus far.

What techs might act as a good substitute for Republic, in this case? Monarchy itself, perhaps? Was Construction a good idea, or do you think that's one to try to research more quickly?

[Arrian]

Well, then I think the best bet would be to get Mysticism prior to Philo, if you can w/o the AI beating you to Philo (should be, but you never know), and select Polytheism as the freebie, then researching Monarchy at 50 turn pace.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

So, you would say FORGET getting Code of Laws as the free tech, if I'm not doing Republic?

I've been trying to pry this answer out of someone on the "Beeline for Republic" thread, but no one'll tell me how good the trades are for Code of Laws...

For the record, what you recommend above is exactly what I'm doing in a current game... In fact, what I did this morning, right before I saved and went to work. Now I have Philo and Poly, and NO ONE ELSE DOES. Well, not on my continent anyways, which is 9 out of the 16 total civs in the world. A few have HR. Rome is building the Temple of Artemis, but is sorely not equipped for the job. But I might get it anyways, just 'cause no one else is building any wonders (a caveat: once again, I don't know about overseas)

If THIS game does not work out, I might crtl+shift+q until I get at least 2-3 luxuries, and then try the Republic route. For ME this might be an uphill battle at this point, though...

[realpolitic]

Conquering Wonders is usually the best way to go in the early game. With 31 other civs, I'd think this is would be a good tactic. Techtrade early and often, even if you're not the first to get it, you can make

[monkeyman]

Hi,

As vmxa1 suggested, mass upgrades are not always optimal. A group of 5 legions can easily take out a large, well-garrisoned spearman city. If a major city, or better yet, a capitol is within striking distance, this is more than worth the trouble. These 5 same units could probably take out 2 or more border cities over 3-10turns, meanwhile, more help should be on the way from your inner cities. The only things you need to worry about are a dog-pile (how's your diplomacy?) and smacking a sleeping giant that you thought was a sleeping mouse. , um, bad metaphor, but you get the picture...

If you can do this right, you can let your neighbors do the REXing (which you claim to be deficient in) for you AND eliminate or cripple one of your competitors.

YMMV,

--mm

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I learned a LOT about the Romans and the early game this weekend.

I have to disagree about that last point, Monkeyman, or at least, take issue with it. 5 legions are no garuntee of taking a city defended even by 2 spearmen, especially if it's over size 6. Is it likely that they will? Yes. But can you still lose this battle? Definitely, and if you lose, that's a big setback, especially if this is your first offensive. Trust me - I lost 4 legions alone taking on Constantinople, which was only size 6 - but I had sent 10, so this wasn't a major problem.

I did a mass upgrade of 26 warriors (1560 gold), taking on Byzantium, this weekend. The Byzantines kept beating me to wonders I was building, often by only a few turns, and out-culturing my a-ss. I was seriously worried about culture flips; we both shared the same incredibly rich "core area". I was way, way behind in tech. Way, way behind Byzantium and Carthage, and to the south, there were Greeks and Incas slightly ahead of me as well (the Egyptians were behind). I was near the quitting point when I decided to stick it out for a mass upgrade.

I'm glad I did. The Byzantines are good road-builders (maybe all the AIs are better now...) and great culture/wonder builders, but poor on defense and worse on offense. 26 legions, followed by a sleiugh of horsemen (maybe 20+ over the course of my GA), took down all of Byzantium, netting me:

- The Great Wall, Great Lighthouse, Mausoleum of Massolous and Statue of Zues (praise Odin! )

- Additional sources of horses and iron, as well as the only source of furs on the entire continent

- A bi-coastal empire (and the largest land mass in the game, rivalled narrowly perhaps by the Incas)

My culture was still behind, and I suffered one flip back (in Constantinople, which was easily retaken). But by the end of the war, only the Sumerians (on a nearby island and hence no threat at all), having built the MoM, and the Incas, having built the Pyramids, had a greater culture - and the Incas were far, far away.

Now they're not far away anymore, and I can thank the Statue of Zues for that. :worship: Ah, the Statue of Zues, the Statue of Zues. If there is one ancient wonder I will always aim for, it is the Statue of Zues. Those Ancient Cavs just keep on coming, and they're beautiful units... due to sloppy, late-night gameplay, I lost 3 or 4 of them, but that's ok, they keep coming, and with ancient cavs, elite horsemen and now knights (plus the occassional leftover legion) Egypt is wholly under my thumb, and Greece is next. I now almost border the Incas.

A few wrong moves I made which I regret, and should be noted:

- I researched Code of Laws after trading away writing, instead of Philosophy, and NOT at the full rate. About half-way through, I thought, "Hmm, I better crank tech up," and did so, getting CoL first - very valuable indeed for trading purposes - but losing the Philosophy race, I suspect by very few turns. I should have done Philosophy first, and taken either Polytheism or CoL.

- My research in the middle ages, I suspect, is all wrong. I haven't gotten yet any SGLs, which may mean nothing, but I'm pretty sure I'm either behind, or on par, with the civs on my continent AND abroad. I did get Engineering before the Carths and Incas, but they got Chivalry before me and Theology at about the same time.

(I'm now on the "upper" research path, going for Education and all the wonder-related techs, instead of Gunpowder-to-Mil Trad. The builder in me yearns for love. I will keep pushing with my knights until they don't do any good, and then I'll head for Mil. Trad.)

- I lost Sun Tzu's to the Japanese, who I haven't met, by a mere 4 turns. Start building that palace earlier I guess...

Otherwise, I'm doing fine. The upgrade cost deters me from upgrading my horsemen and spearmen for the time being, but I do have Leo's Workshop, so if I switch to Democracy and build Adam Smith's, I ought to be fine in this regard. The wars ahead of me, in the meantime, are going to be meat-grinders, but for a first effort, I'm pleased: I have the world's largest empire, complete with HG, G. Lighthouse, SoZ, MoM, GW, Leo's, 4 different luxuries, and plenty of iron and horses.

Now I need to read up that corruption thread and see if this is going to stop my typical meglomania, and force me to keep my empire at it's present size, which I'd prefer not to do...

Still...

[Arrian]

One other piece of advice: if you're going to use legionaries as your primary attack force, DEFINITELY take the time to build a small group of catapults. In 3C3, the cats will shoot at a town's defenders first, and often take off a hitpoint. Vet legionaries versus 2hp spearmen are gonna win the vast majority of the time. Vet legionaries versus 3hp spearmen don't do all that well.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I used my initial 26 legionaries to take down the incredibly poorly defended Byzantines. I didn't build any more legionaries, using the GA to flood out horsies (and improvements) instead. I only have about 10 legions left, and they're all defenders/MP enforcers.

I couldn't have done much of it without those wonderful Ancient Cavalry though. I'm STILL using them, now to attack the Incas, who hold the Pyramids far to the South.

Man, Rome isn't what it should be with that corruption bug though... I'm ready to plant my FP in preparation to eventually plant my SPHQ... but it'll have to wait until I take the Incas to the South, with their Pyramids, which I figure will give me the growth I need to justify a two-core empire (under the current rules).

Any other Roman stories since C3C's been out? Irritating Byzantines, ne c'est pas?

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

I have to disagree about that last point, Monkeyman, or at least, take issue with it. 5 legions are no garuntee of taking a city defended even by 2 spearmen, especially if it's over size 6. Is it likely that they will? Yes. But can you still lose this battle? Definitely, and if you lose, that's a big setback, especially if this is your first offensive. Trust me - I lost 4 legions alone taking on Constantinople, which was only size 6 - but I had sent 10, so this wasn't a major problem.

YS,
(in counterpoint)
So, I am playing a Monarch/Small world/random everything game using the Celts. I was on a continent w/ England and Portugal. I attacked England to the north with a stack of 4 UU's about 10 turns after I researched IW and hooked up an iron. I took a small border town w/ a vet (promoted to elite) and a reg. I waited in the captured town for 3 turns for a single reinforcement with more traveling en route. I found London w/in spitting distance and took out 2 units in the open spawning a great leader. The remaining 4 units (1 vet 3 regs) took out London(4 spears) with 1 loss (reg) over 2 turns. In no case did my unit retreat up to this point. I then got 2 or 3 reinforcements and loaded the elite + 2 others into an army. I took out 2 more cities with the help of the army, sued for peace and got a city + 4 techs + $$$. I waited 3-5 turns while my army + ~5 units went south and took all but 2 Portuguese cities. I started the offensive with 10-15 cities, 3 lux's, 1 iron, no horses, by the end I had ~25 (some AI cities autorazed) cities 5 lux's 2 irons, 2 horses and tech parity (at least). The only wonder I had was GL.

The point is, while YMMV, striking with a limited military earlier can really pay off if the RNG is not overly cruel to you. If I had waited, the net result would be that it would have taken many turns longer to get where I am now, and at a higher cost to my infrastructure, possibly putting things off long enough for the enemy to get swords or worse, pikes! The nice thing about the ancient era is that you can engage in small scale warfare and be pretty successful. You don't really get the same option later in the game (the later it is, the bigger the wars get), so take advantage of that early on, is my philosphy, especially if you have an ancient UU. UU's are unbalancing for a very short period of your game, make the most of 'em. Used well, they can be game winners, as was the case of this game…

ps I haven't met the other 3 civs yet, but I can guarantee they won't be the monster that I am now.

--mm

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Monkeyman: I don't doubt that that's a good strategy, especially when using the Celtic UU. In the case of the slower-moving Legionary, though, I think there's a lot to be said for waiting for many (4, in my case) wonders to be built by a poorly-defended neighbor, and then swallowing their empire wholesale, using the time before the offensive to REX and develop, and the GA to build even more, and supplement your military as needs be. Your strategy nets more MGLs, doubtless; I just finally got my first two of the game, and not from legionaries. My strategy is appropriate for the conquerer who does not wish to raze and rebuild, and also plays to the Commercial trait, in terms of empire maintenance.

But to play devil's advocate for a second, this commercial trait is greatly weakened due to the "corruption bug". Normally, I'd plunk my FP down early in my core and use the MGLs to move the Palace around. Now, I'm not sure how healthy my empire'll be after all the blood has flown (and much remains to be spilled ) but I am determined to take the entire continent... that's just my bag.

But with a fast mover like the Gaelic Swordsman, I'd say slash and burn with a few troops early is a solid strategy, especially against Europeans without a solid UU to defend themselves/fight back, early.

[monkeyman]

YS,

So, I've thought a little bit more about our discussion, and I really think that it comes down to some real strategic elements. I think Sun Tzu said that you should only raise an army once. This was a caution against keeping a large standing army, because it tends to place undue burdon upon your populace. I think the same holds true in Civ in general. If you can get the same things done earlier with a smaller force and save yourself the upkeep$$ then by all means do it. It was through reading the posts of some of our resident warmongers (war early war often ) that I was able to slip from 50/50 win/loss Monarch to 70/30 win/loss Emperor. I found that I was waiting too long to whack my first neighbor. I myself am not a crazy warmonger, but I don't hesitate nearly as much in helping myself to a weak neighbor's sugar bowl. It was just a nudge in the agression scale that really tipped the balance and helped my economy, since I'm a builder at heart .

Of course Sun Tzu said a lot of other things, so time and place are most important

What you say about the mobility of the GS is correct. There certainly is a much shorter lag both from my cities to the border and from the border to my future cities , which means alot in terms of strategic advantage. What I like about legions is that they are the ultimate pillaging machines. You can stand them out anywhere in enemy territory and not worry about being picked off, due to their great defense. "Oh pardon me, was that your horse?"

btw, I've enjoyed watching your threads over the past year or so, never had a chance to participate until now. As a wise man once said, "It's been a pressure and a plivaledge."

Regards,

--mm

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Ah no Monkeyman, I assure you, the pleasure is all mine. I'm glad you've appreciated my posts. I can't contribute much to the dialogue here at Apolyton strategy-wise, but in terms of clear written English I do try to do my part, as I sometimes find that element deficient in the conversations here. (Not in your case however)

I must admit, the sheer capacity for overwhelming devastation offered by a mass upgrade to legionaries, combined with the tendency of the AI to get Iron Working relatively early on, often deters me from researching it myself when playing Rome, building a few Legionaries, and whacking my nearby neighbors.

Then again, I always play against 16 civs on a huge continents map, with roaming barbarians. I do this strictly for reasons of personal enjoyment - I like the long, drawn out game, and it reminds a bit more of the complexity of real life history. I am also a "UP" player à la Arrian, which leads me to desire swallowing empires wholesale instead of picking them off bit by bit - although with the right unit, I'm certainly willing to consider that approach.

On a smaller map, with fewer opponents, the prospect of sending forth 3-4 veteran legionaries, perhaps made elite by fighting barbarians (say, Restless barbarians) seems much more appealing, and useful. A handful wouldn't really cut it when your other cities are underdefended, facing off incoming horsemen perhaps, and still REXing or prebuilding wonders, on a huge map. Not a slow mover like Legionaries. Now, give me ~10 Gaelic Swordsmen or even Mounted Warriors, and I will take a different approach. Same goes for my beloved Jaguar Warriors, whose cost upgrade I most certainly don't appreciate.

An Important Off-Topic Observation

In taking on the Incas, whose empire is large and backed by the pyramids, I thought I'd be in for a meat-grinder war, but a winnable one, as I saw nothing on their borders except archers, spearmen and horsemen - indicating a lack of iron. I don't yet have their map - I'm the tech leader in the mid-Middle Ages - but as I saw no iron-based units, I wasn't too worried...

Boy was I surprised to see knight after knight after knight pour up to MY borders when I began this war. Not to mention pikemen defending nearby Inca cities. Ok, I can still win the war. But this leads me to speculate:

Is the AI now so advanced it will HIDE it's best units to encourage a player to launch a foolish attack?

This is obviously just speculation... but I saw many, many horsemen in play, and not a single knight until I started the war. Then, I saw many.

On another note: there were 8 horsemen fortfied in an Inca border city when I began my offensive! I've never seen that many offensive units massed by the AI in one location.

[TheArsenal]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Is the AI now so advanced it will HIDE it's best units to encourage a player to launch a foolish attack?

This is obviously just speculation... but I saw many, many horsemen in play, and not a single knight until I started the war. Then, I saw many.

Interesting. Even if the AI is not actively hiding its advanced units (which to me would seem to be a more complex behavior than an AI could display - but what do I know about AI programming?) I could always depend on catching a glimpse of the best unit as it paraded it into my field of view in one of those patrolling loops the AI likes (liked?) to do. This has on occasion saved me some of the heartache of being under prepared.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Yes, well, me too. Had I seen Inca knights, I would have held off my war, switched to democracy, and headed for MT, and waged a cavalry war.

As it is, I'm on the "upper path" of research. I don't even have gunpowder. And I have to fight the second-largest empire in the known world, which has at least one source of iron, and the Pyramids. Oy... Well, this will give me a good idea of what it's like to face an empire of this size without knowing their map, and, of course, plenty of opportunities to gain MGLs and build those wonderful new armies.

[Arrian]

Your advisors should tell you "the best unit the incas have are knights." I think it's the guy on the F4 screen, oddly enough (should be the F3 screen - the military advisor). You may have to let him cycle through his various silly things until he mentions the unit. But they will tell you what each civ's "best unit" is. So the AI can't really hide knights from you.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that this is based on my PTW experience, and it could have been changed in Conquests. So I might very well be wrong.

-Arrian

[monkeyman]

Hi again,

IIRC, in my above-mentioned game, in both cases my F4 advisor told me my adversaries best units were warriors, when I could clearly see spearmen . I guess it depends on what your definition of "best" is . Seriously, that could have something to do with unit types...

--mm

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmmm. Interesting. I'll be sure to check the F4 screen out and make sure when I resume my game... which will be who knows when, as my computer won't TURN ON for some reason... Shouldn'ta bought the dang piece of junk, but c'est la vie...

[Patch61]

Originally posted by monkeyman
IIRC, in my above-mentioned game, in both cases my F4 advisor told me my adversaries best units were warriors, when I could clearly see spearmen . I guess it depends on what your definition of "best" is . Seriously, that could have something to do with unit types...

It seems to me the advisor is telling you the best OFFENSIVE unit a civ has. That could be why he told you that the other civ's best unit was a warrior... because the spearman is a defensive unit and isn't counted.

-Patch

[TheArsenal]

It would be interesting to know what criteria the advisor basis his assessment on. Because it seems – observationally speaking – that he is a little behind the times at least for a few turns. I have also found that the units that he tells me other civs “fear” of mine, are out of sync as well. They will often fear, say, my swordsman, when I have plenty of Chinese Riders on hand.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, after over a week of my computer being out, I got the thing working over the weekend, and had the chance to put in a good 8-9 hours of Civving, on the game in question. Thought I'd post a little update in case anyone is interested... I feel my game represents a good cross-section of common Epic Game observations so far.

1. Corruption and the Second Core So I put down my FP using an MGL from the end of my ceaseless war against the Incas. Did my first core go to hell? No. But was the benefit almost nil? Yes. My overall income/tech rate raised hardly a blip, which was most dissappointed, because in PTW adding this second core would've made my profits shoot through the roof - it's a really beautiful core area. I am developing it now, so eventually it'll pan out, but in the meantime, the "in between" cities, as has been pointed out, are now utterly worthless (as opposed to plain old worthless)

2. Overseas I found much greater leverage in trading overseas. Selling resources and luxuries, not to mention techs, is bringing me huge amounts of gpt. The relative tech standard is: I am entering the Industrial Age, and the most advanced overseas Civs - India and Korea - just landed Physics.

3. Still no SGL Ok, I've had the tech lead for a while here. Where's my DAMN SGL?!? I know I don't need one, but I want one and I deserve one dammit! I've stuck with this game for a long time now.

4. Island Nations with Tons O'Troops Those little isolated countries - stuck on an island with themselves, or perhaps merely lacking strategic resources - build a TON of outdated troops. Lordy! Using some spare cash to build embassies, I found 20+ in the captials of Spain (island), Sumeria (island), and the Maya (a huge empire), and always an assortment of spearmen, warrios, and archers. Pathetic! Irritating to conquer, I suppose, but only on a time-consuming level. I hope this is fixed in a patch at some point.

Well, that's it. If this is corruption under a COMMERCIAL regime, I'd hate to see it under anyone else!

Anyone else have some Roman stories?

[monkeyman]

I suspect that 1) 2) and 4) are related. I've found in my latest game all three of these things happened. I suspect that El Corruptino is harder on the AI than it is on you or I. Once replacable parts comes around, the Civil Eng is a godsend for barracking and culturing your newly captured territory. All in all, the game feels much easier on Monarch here.


--mm

[notyoueither]

After thinking the game was severely easier by difficulty on a Monarch game, I went back to Emperor, fat continents with 12 civs. Still playing Rome.

Handicapping myself by making very sparing use of camp cities (1 max) and never accepting gpt from the AI. Further straining old tactics by using a looser city spacing (shooting for minimum 4 spacing with as little overlap as possible, taking 3 spacing on the coasts sometimes).

It is tough.

2 starts I tried I was 13 and 22 to iron and horses in one and 27 and 23 in the next.

In the first game I made the mistake of rejecting some AI demands at a bad time, and compounded that by not lining up allies before they did. It was still OK, I almost had the iron hooked up. Then as the neighbour on that side joined in and had troops positioned at the iron city, 3 barb horse showed up. So much for the iron road, as I was fighting to keep and take back core cities from war chariots with my archers. I let the war chariots take a few more cities before I restarted.

Second game the iron and horses were all the way across the Byzantines. Had to fight through 4 layers of cities to secure them and finally thought I had it set. I had a few horse built by the time the Egyptians moved into my territory with a large number of war chariots. Leave! War! OK.

Did very well for the longest time. Then ran into a string of atrocious RNG results. Most of my counter attacking reserves were used up when my neglect/inability to form my normal border defence garrisons caught up to me. The war chariots got lucky and went on a rampage through the conquered Byzantine lands taking mutiple cities per turn for a few turns.

Oh, in the second game I lacked all luxuries in both my start area, and the 85% of the Byzantines that I conquered (the remaining 15% didn't have any either). I think there was a single wine about halfway into the Egyptians (other side of the Byz) from what I could see of the map. I had several tobacco though. Yaay!

I tried the 50 turn Republic in this 2nd game. HUGE massive mistake of BIBLICAL proportions. Though shalt not shirk tech in C3C should be the 11th commandment. Stuck in despotism with knights coming on and getting very curious about resourse distribution, I put all those saves into a seperate folder for future enjoyment and started a new one.

Hot damn! I have iron (close) and horses (far, 14) and even a single incense in my start area! This could work, except for having Bismarck as a neighbour...

Otto makes a demand for tech at some point, which I'm prepared for because he's Otto, so I tell him to shove it. I also signed RoPs with the other nearby, but not bordering, civs to forestall them joining Otto. The first war is over after some very good maneuvering by the AI with swords. I declined to build Legions until shortly before Feudalism to forstall a wasted GA. A timely MGL and a horse army helped me keep the guys with the funny hats on the shelf. Then some counterattacking swords smoked the army after the razing of Konigsberg, but it was time to trigger the GA and make peace. WW is a factor in Feudalism as I found out. Second war is coming up shortly after a GA spent developing and while I have knights and am close enough to Berlin to knock Otto for 6 in 2 turns max.

So, this 3rd one is going OK. I am slightly behind the leaders early in the Medieval, but with a palace move coming up and a major peninisula all to myself after Otto departs, it should go my way.

Thus it is recorded in the chronicles of Rome. To this point.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

@notyoueither:

Be careful with that Palace move... it might not be wholly beneficial... then again, I don't know the state of your core. If you're in Feudalism, I assume your cities are smallish, so a move might be an alright idea. Do you have the FP down?

Yes, the resource distribution can make things downright difficult. 1 luxury on a continent? Yeowch. That is ridiculous.

Well, good luck troopers. My computer's down again so there's going to be a delay before I test the SPHQ and see if it's worth the effort...