Express Path to Republic in C3C

[nbarclay]

The new rule that the first civ to research Philosophy gets a free tech opens the way to a gamble that, if successful, can be highly advantageous and even a bit unbalancing. In my first two C3C games, both playing the Mayas and restarting to get a river start (I absolutely adore the Agricultural/Industrious combo on a river), I was able to research Alphabet, Writing, and Code of Laws and still beat the AIs to Philosophy. (In my first, I even detoured through Literature before Code of Laws thanks to forgetting about the Philosophy change.) That let me get Republic as my free tech. In my current game, I'm starting a switch to Republic in 1450 BC, which is just a bit absurd.

[vmxa1]

Yes it can be, but I am not sure I would want to switch to Republic that early anyway. You need cities to be able to support the troops and it takes more time. Also I do not want to take the anarchy at such a crucial stage of the game. I now wait much longer than ever to switch (non-religious).

[Rasputin]

good to see they bringing back some of civ 2 to civ3

[DrSpike]

Yes, you can only really switch straight away if you have enough land to settle. But I've been doing something similar..........if you beeline to philosophy and take code of laws as your freebie you wont be able to research republic in much less than 50 turns even at full research. So you can abuse the 50 turn limit and build up 1000 gold whilst kicking any AI whose land you want. If you can do this early enough you can switch to republic when it's done, which is still pretty early. You also have a bundle of cash ready.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Nbarclay, could you give me any feedback on what you've noticed re: how the AI prioritizes Philosophy?

I've always been doing Alphabet->Writing->Philosophy, and then something expensive, or something the AI hasn't researched yet, as the free tech.

But I've also wondered if I could put Philosophy off, as you seem to suggest doing above, perhaps researching something like Code of Laws or Literature first.

Playing as the Romans (for instance) would you suggest researching other writing-shootoffs before Philosophy? And if so, how many?

Signed, a hapless fan.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by nbarclay
In my first two C3C games, both playing the Mayas and restarting to get a river start (I absolutely adore the Agricultural/Industrious combo on a river), I was able to research Alphabet, Writing, and Code of Laws and still beat the AIs to Philosophy...In my current game, I'm starting a switch to Republic in 1450 BC, which is just a bit absurd.

It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

I'm not trying to single you out, Nathan, but this just happens to be a pet peeve of mine. I'm actually going to post something about the Agricultural trait shortly.

Back on-topic, I agree that the free tech at Philosophy is a little powerful. It completely undermines the higher cost of Code of Laws or even Republic on the way to a government change. What would balanced the effect is if the tech would be chosen at random. This would make Philosophy a nice tech to race for in a builder game, but not something to build your entire strategy around.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Dominae
Back on-topic, I agree that the free tech at Philosophy is a little powerful. It completely undermines the higher cost of Code of Laws or even Republic on the way to a government change. What would balanced the effect is if the tech would be chosen at random. This would make Philosophy a nice tech to race for in a builder game, but not something to build your entire strategy around.

This would also be better at emulating history, so I'm all for it... but for the time being, would you say Code of Laws is the tech to grab (for free)? Or is that only if you're beelining for Republic?

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
... but for the time being, would you say Code of Laws is the tech to grab (for free)? Or is that only if you're beelining for Republic?

Code of Laws is usually the most expensive tech available if you get to Philosophy first, so it makes sense to pick it for free. But I actually picked Map Making in one game due to overall strategic considerations. Like so much about this game, it depends on the situation.

[Dominae]

To get The Republic free from Philosophy, you need to research Code of Laws first. That's a relatively expensive tech, and while you're researching it, an AI might ruin your plans and research Philosophy first. But clearly it's better to get Republic for free because it costs more. So it's a gamble: can I out-research the AI to Philosophy, with a detour to Code of Laws?

On Regent or lower, I would say go for Code of Laws first. On Monarch, it depends on your starting location. On Emperor or Demigod, I would not gamble and instead head straight for Philosophy. On Deity or Sid I do not expect to be the first to Philosophy.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Thanks for answering guys, that pretty much clears up my question. But I do have one more. What is the comparative value (if you know), trading-wise, of Code of Laws? I'm not a real big Republic guy, especially with so few luxuries seemingly about, so would it still be worth it to me to nab Code of Laws and then try trading it for, say, Polytheism? Or Construction even?

If you don't feel like answering, I'm sure I'll give this a shot this weekend anyways... no doubt my current games is going to go down the tubes as the last ~10 have.

[Dominae]

Start Menu
Programs
Atari
Civilization III Conquests
Civ3 Conquests Editor
Civ3ConquestsEdit

You're now in the editor!

Scenario -> Custom Rules -> Ok
Rules -> Edit -> Civilization Advances

Now you can check the costs of each tech!

---

I hope this helps you more in the long run than my simple answering of your question straight up.


Dominae

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Dominae


It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

Amen. With great land the trait is amazing.........if you restart until you get good land it's probably the best trait. For me, if the trait is balanced its only because sometimes you only get the bonus for the capital initially.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Yes, I suppose I should just sit down and look at the value of each tech. Still, though, those numbers don't mean as much to me as just knowing which techs are going to be waaaaay too expensive to research at anything other than the 50-turn minimum, and which are more flexible.

I read the thread (I believe it might have been started by you, Dominae?) about figuring out tech costs, etc., and perhaps I should review it. But one thing I took away from it was that there are certain techs that are almost always going to cost you the maximum amount of time researching, and some that are more flexible.

Writing, for example, seems to always take 50 turns to research, no matter what. Hence, I set my tech rate to 10% to get that bad boy.

I was just wondering if Code of Laws is similar, because never in a game of Civ, be it PTW or C3C, that I can recall, have I myself ever researched Code of Laws, since I almost never go for Republic. I either trade for it, acquire it through warfare, or pick it up via the G. Lib.

But I'm willing to change my stripes, if there's a good reason to...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Post Script: Not that I meant to denigrate your reply. I should spend more time in the editor... I always think, "Man, I should review the base rules to become a better player" but always spend the time I do have just cranking out another game... which is often a frustrating process.

It's akin to, "Oh man, I should save this money for a vacation, but instead I think I'll just buy some beer".

Ok, sorry 'bout that OT fluff there.

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae


It's also absurd the advantage that a player gets when he or she restarts to get the perfect Agricultural River start.

Well, since I'm no Aeson, I restart if I get cruddy land too. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I just don't like struggling that much when I'm (still) learning to warmonger. Yes, still.

What would balanced the effect is if the tech would be chosen at random.

That's not a bad idea, but with a little qualification. Philosophy is the original science. Why not pick a random tech that could be classified as "Scientific" - Bronze, Iron, Math(especially this one) etc?

Just a thought, though I think if the AI were modified(or rather the Philosophy tech modified) such that the AI valued it as much as the player, I think this might become less of an issue - still a game-winner, like getting a certain wonder under certain circumstances - but by no means a Template for a Win.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
But I do have one more. What is the comparative value (if you know), trading-wise, of Code of Laws? I'm not a real big Republic guy, especially with so few luxuries seemingly about, so would it still be worth it to me to nab Code of Laws and then try trading it for, say, Polytheism? Or Construction even?

(

YS since you are playing Regent and Mon, I would do no trading of tech after the first tier or maybe the second. Just leave them behind. Smash your neighbors and the other civs will never get in the game, due to lack of contacts.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Yes, I suppose I should just sit down and look at the value of each tech. Still, though, those numbers don't mean as much to me as just knowing which techs are going to be waaaaay too expensive to research at anything other than the 50-turn minimum, and which are more flexible.

[. . .]

Writing, for example, seems to always take 50 turns to research, no matter what. Hence, I set my tech rate to 10% to get that bad boy.

I would echo Dominae's advice to spend some time in the editor to familiarize yourself with tech costs -- much better than just a straight-up answer.

Keep in mind that no tech will "always take 50 turns to research, no matter what." The basic logic behind research costs is quite simple -- techs have varying research costs, and your empire produces varying amounts of research beakers; more expensive techs will take longer, and this longer research period is exacerbated by a young empire's early development stage. Specifically, Writing may seem to you to take a long time because it is expensive and because it is available very quickly, before your empire is capable of producing many research beakers. If you research the upper or lower branches first, deferring research on Writing while your empire expands and becomes more productive, you'll find that Writing can be researched in a handful of turns (but you'll discover that Math, IW, Polytheism, etc. take a long time ).

Catt

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I read the thread (I believe it might have been started by you, Dominae?) about figuring out tech costs, etc., and perhaps I should review it. But one thing I took away from it was that there are certain techs that are almost always going to cost you the maximum amount of time researching, and some that are more flexible.

Writing, for example, seems to always take 50 turns to research, no matter what. Hence, I set my tech rate to 10% to get that bad boy.

In my experience, it almost never takes the max 50 turns to research a tech. The number you see when you begin researching a tech is not indicative of how long it is going to take you; as you civ grows and you build tile improvements, that number will decrease in dramatic steps. So although it looks like you're in for a long haul when you begin researching Writing, you'll get it faster if you crank up your Science anyway. Going for it at 10% is a sure way of researching it as slowly as possible (without stopping entirely).

It may be cost-effective to research at 10% or with 1 Scientist, but that's another issue entirely. The discussion here is about getting to Philosophy as fast as possible.

You can use the tech costs in the editor in the following way: check how much of your income goes to Science to research one particular tech (say, Writing), then multiply this value by the ratio of costs between a new tech (say, Code of Laws) and the just-research tech. So, if it costs you 100 Beakers to research Writing (tech cost 8), it should take you 12/8 * 100 = 150 Beakers to research Code of Laws (assuming I'm correct that Code of Laws has a tech cost of 12).


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmmm. Yes, I see your point. I guess my question about the comparative value of Code of Laws is thus a bit stupid.

But for trading purposes, doesn't the AI basically value techs based on what it will get them? In other words, techs that provide wonders, new units, and new improvements would be more highly valued than techs that provide nothing at all. Right? Or wrong?

Through trading away Alphabet, and then Writing (or some other second-tier tech, if I've popped it from a hut) I can generally get all the first-tier techs. I often do not get IW, Mysticism or HR first because the AI seems to value these techs highly, or perhaps because the expanionists are more likely to find these techs? This often seems to be the case with Mathematics as well.

On the other hand, my typically gameplay style - which I suspect is deeply flawed - does not lead me to put a high priority on Code of Laws. I just don't go for Republic that often - though maybe I should - nor do I build courthouses that early. So, I guess I should really ask:

"Am I being a fool, not getting Code of Laws early and trading it around, and instead, trading something else FOR Code of Laws? Should I aim to get Code of Laws first because it will enable me to trade effectively?"

There's my new question.

[Stuie]

Another way to get a rough idea of a tech's worth is to temporarily put your research at 100%, and then see how long the available techs will take to research (keeping in mind the cap of 50 and minimum of 4). That's how I determined Code of Laws was worth more - not by looking in the editor.

Of course that only works for available techs... but it gives you a rough idea.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by ducki
Well, since I'm no Aeson, I restart if I get cruddy land too. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I just don't like struggling that much when I'm (still) learning to warmonger. Yes, still.

Fine. My point is that Nathan's statements regarding Philosophy are heavily biased by the fact that he reloaded to get a super-duper Agricultural start.

Edit: Hm, it sounds like I'm trying to vilify Nathan here. I'm not. Maybe his River start was not that amazing. All I'm saying is that Agricultural is very powerful on the right starts, and that every good play/strategy is magnified in such circumstances.

Just a thought, though I think if the AI were modified(or rather the Philosophy tech modified) such that the AI valued it as much as the player, I think this might become less of an issue - still a game-winner, like getting a certain wonder under certain circumstances - but by no means a Template for a Win.

The problem here is that if you make Writing and Philosophy too attractive, the AI will always beeline for them no matter what, which would be a problem in itself. I think reducing the power of Philosophy is the way to go, since this allows for a more strategic game (if a Philosophy beeline is always the best play, the Ancient era is a lot less interesting).


Dominae

[ducki]

Originally posted by Dominae


Fine. My point is that Nathan's statements regarding Philosophy are heavily biased by the fact that he reloaded to get a super-duper Agricultural start.

Ah, gotcha, my bad.

The problem here is that if you make Writing and Philosophy too attractive, the AI will always beeline for them no matter what, which would be a problem in itself. I think reducing the power of Philosophy is the way to go, since this allows for a more strategic game (if a Philosophy beeline is always the best play, the Ancient era is a lot less interesting).


Dominae

I agree completely, I was just thinking it might be easier to weight Philosophy a little than to change how you get your free tech. Probably my lack of editor knowledge showing.

I think we're in agreement that one uber-strat kills the game, probably just looking at a solution from different angles. As always, I know you have more in depth knowledge of the game and its inner workings. I just had to throw in my 2 bits.

[Arrian]

I kinda wish the map generator just started all civs on either a river or lake. But that's me.

Anyway, I've been going straight at Philo, taking CoL as my freebie. Then, depending on what I want to do, I may research republic at 50 turn pace, or I may research a couple more techs as a despot (perhaps while doing a little "pacification") before I go all-out for republic and switch.

Come to think of it, since I've been playing Monarch, I've been going about it wrong. I should be researching CoL first, and getting Rep as my freebie. Silly me.

Dom,

I agree that if one is discussing game balance that restarting until you start on a river is going to skew you conclusions, especially with regard to the agricultural trait.

However, many people want to have a relatively nice start spot. Each person defines what is an acceptable start differently, ranging from "anything is playable" to "I want a river, multiple cows, and luxuries!" Outside of the game balance debate, it isn't absurd. I noticed that Nathan bothered to specifically point out that he did it - so we all knew it.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
But for trading purposes, doesn't the AI basically value techs based on what it will get them? In other words, techs that provide wonders, new units, and new improvements would be more highly valued than techs that provide nothing at all. Right? Or wrong?

It was easier to dig this thread up on CFC, although I know it exists on Apolyton:

What will the AI research next?

Thank alexman.


Dominae

[Arrian]

Hmm, there might have been a crosspost involved here.

The solution, if any, to the AI's tech path is probably the "flavors" thing. I haven't messed with it, but you could certainly set up a game (AU?) such that some of the AIs went up the writing pathway, and some went up the religious route, and some went for construction and/or currency. At least I think you could.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Oh, and one more thing...

HIYA NATHAN!

Been a while, man.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
I agree that if one is discussing game balance that restarting until you start on a river is going to skew you conclusions, especially with regard to the agricultural trait.

Yes, this is my point. The problem with reloading now is that it heavily favors one trait. Before, reloading was fine because it made all your games better. Now, if you're willing to reload, you'll get the best starts with Agricultural civs. So everyone that reloads (most people, if I remember that poll correctly) is going to say that Agricultural is too powerful. This is annoying (to me) because the trait is balanced by the fact it's map-dependent, but most people will simply not let this balancing ever take place. It's also annoying because most people will be playing Agricultural from now on; Agricultural gives the best results in the best-case, so might as well always go for that.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Dominae


It was easier to dig this thread up on CFC, although I know it exists on Apolyton:

What will the AI research next?

Thank alexman.


Dominae

Er, thank you for referring this thread to me... but it's a little difficult for me to use that insane spreadsheet. No offense meant to the man who designed it. "Insane" is just another word for "brilliant" which is just another way of saying "a bit over my head".

In any event, looks as though Code of Laws would be a good one to grab from Philsophy, but maybe not the best to research before... I'll do some experimenting of my own this weekend.

[Arrian]

Speaking of non-optimal (non-river/lake) starts as an agricultural civ, this tech strategy happens to be the fastest way to get the trait bonus by getting out of despotism. Of course, you might not be able to pull it off as easily, but it's all the more attractive if you can.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Well, I suppose if one wasn't playing a commercial civ, that's not so - Monarchy might be closer. If you're religious, it certainly is.

My bad. See, my favorite new combo is Agr/Comm - the Iroquois.

-Arrian