Naval Warfare with Missile Units

[Kull]

Has anyone had experience in this area? I was recently playtesting an intriguing scenario that uses cannon balls on sailing ships, and it's a really great way to simulate naval warfare. Unfortunately, the AI never wanted to use it's ammo. The AI ships were often loaded to the gills with cannon balls, but they refused to use them. It was a different story entirely when you approached a port city, as the AI seemed to have no difficulty in hurling them at your nearby ships.

So the question is, what does it take in order for AI ships to use missile-type weapons against other ships?
Has anyone seen a scenario which successfully uses this? Any assistance would be much appreciated.

[DarthVeda]

I'm working on it in Kyokujitsu. I'll bring the news from the front lines once it gets in complete action.

[techumseh]

As far as I can tell, the AI is very limited in how it uses missile units. In the case of nukes, the AI will only attack cities which have more than 3 units in them. The attack can come from any city or submarine within range of the city. The missile unit does not itself have to be in the city or on the sub at the time of the attack. If the attacking civ has nukes, the AI DEEMS them to be launched from the city or sub in range of the target. I have never seen a case where the nuke was actually carried and launched from a sub.

In the case of cruise missiles, I have only seen them fired from cities and only at ships. Others may have observed differently. I know DV is experimenting with AI operated carriers, etc. Maybe he's discovered something more useful to you.

On a side note, I think there's great potential for developing naval campaigns designed for multiplayer use. In fact, I think right now there may well be a market for made-for-multiplayer scenarios in general. Have you considered it?

[PolarisGL]

Kull, I used cannon balls with my artillery in my scenario, Gettysburg. Captain Nemo used them in his scenario Second Front with naval things, which is what you're asking.

The lower amount of COST the cannon ball or projectile is, the more the AI will use them. I think they feel as if they're expendable.

I also want to find out what constitutes for this. Maybe it could be changed by hex-editing or other means.

But then that leaves a question. In a regular game, why does the AI build aircraft carriers and put those expensive units on them, and actually use those expensive units?

[Prometeus]

I tried it on Antigonos, but that stupid AI never wanted to use siege fireballs to take my cities... and more "stupidly" sent its Siege Penteras directly against my shore defences, inspite of their huge shield production's amount...

Edit: Thanks, GL, a good hint...
[This message has been edited by Prometeus (edited January 20, 2001).]

[Kull]

Why do I have a sinking feeling that this falls into the same category of AI idiocy as "won't use Carrier-based air"? Hopefully Darth has come up with a solution in Kyokujitsu, though whether that translates to FW and MGE is an open question.

Kinda blue-skying here, but is it possible that the AI won't use missiles and planes at sea because the naval vessels ALSO move? Cities and Airbases don't move, and the AI will launch from single square islands, so it's a possibility. The test would be to create a 0-move naval unit, load it with planes and/or missiles, and see if they launch.

Tecumseh: I've always preferred trying to create good solo-play scenarios, and am quite ambivalent about developing multiplayer-only ones.

[PolarisGL]

Hmmm... Kull, thats a good possibility.

[DarthVeda]

quote: Originally posted by Kull on 01-21-2001 07:55 PM Kinda blue-skying here, but is it possible that the AI won't use missiles and planes at sea because the naval vessels ALSO move? Cities and Airbases don't move, and the AI will launch from single square islands, so it's a possibility. The test would be to create a 0-move naval unit, load it with planes and/or missiles, and see if they launch.

[Captain Nemo]

It is EASY to fix. The AI will throw missile units at everything if the cost ratio is right. In Second Front the AI will attack ships and tanks and infantry with V-1s and artillery shells.

Just test it:

Make the cannonballs cost 10 and the ships 180 and the attack is guaranteed. At about 10 and 70 the attacks seem to stop... Missiles costing 30 will attack units costing over 100 but not under, but missiles costing 10 will attack units down to about 80...

For SF I made 2 types of shells (Long range/Short range) with high and low cost so the heavy coastal artillery would target only Battleships, Cruiser and Heavy transports while the smaller batteries would fire at Landing Crafts, tanks and infantry on the beaches. It worked perfectly and consistently.

BTW the units transported in a ship are also measured against the cost of the missile in the equation, not additively but comparatively. A missile will not attack a transport costing 50 and transporting 8 units costing 50 each but will attack the same transport carrying just one unit costing 120...
[This message has been edited by Captain Nemo (edited January 22, 2001).]

[klesh]

quote: Originally posted by Kull on 01-19-2001 11:46 PM The AI ships were often loaded to the gills with cannon balls, but they refused to use them. It was a different story entirely when you approached a port city, as the AI seemed to have no difficulty in hurling them at your nearby ships. So the question is, what does it take in order for AI ships to use missile-type weapons against other ships?

But Captain, aren't all the shells in SF shot from the shore battery units, or from Kreigsmarine cities that look like batteries? Kull doesn't seem to have a problem when the ships come in rangeof the shore, suggesting that it isn't a cost issue. More of a ship-type issue.
Kull: Were these ships Carriers firing the cannonballs or were they subs?

Nemo: In the earlier versions 2194 Days of War, you had a light blue American Torpedo bomber that only attacked ships. What kind of flag or properties did you give that. I know it was a plane and not a missle unit, but maybe it's worth knowing. Also, I remember you saying you took it out of the later versions of the scenario because the American AI never used them properly...Hmmm...

[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited January 22, 2001).]

[Miner]

quote: Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh on 01-22-2001 01:47 PM Nemo: In the earlier versions 2194 Days of War, you had a light blue American Torpedo bomber that only attacked ships. What kind of flag or properties did you give that. I know it was a plane and not a missle unit, but maybe it's worth knowing

TBF1 Torpedo bmbr, Hor, 1, 6.,2, 14a,2d, 2h,4f, 8,0, 2, X4, 000000000001001

Submarine advantages/disadvantages.

[Captain Nemo]

The missiles were fired from "carrier units" stuck on shore or from cities designed to look like coastal batteries. Are you suggesting that the AI knows the difference between a Carrier on land and at sea?
I am not sure? The AI will certainly fire missiles (V-1s) across the Channel to England to hit cities and land units there...

BTW the torpedo plane (Correct, it was a Submarine-Plane combo) did not work very well under AI control... Most of them ended up circling Japanese cities well inside China without being able to attack. I saw only one attack against a ship in many hours of test play so I dropped them.

[Kull]

FMK: The ships were carriers, not subs.

I did run a small test with a zero-move carrier unit. I created one for the AI with the cheat menu, gave it a bomber and two fighters, and placed targets of varying cost nearby. Oddly, the AI attacked my units with all three planes, but NONE of them returned to the carrier! A turn later they had all disappeared.

Just to be sure, I gave the AI the proper pre-req technologies for all three units and made them "None", but that didn't help. Odd all the way around.

[DarthVeda]

What you just encountered was AI stupidity with aircraft. The AI likes to treat all aircraft like they do bombers--that is fly them wherever they please, reguardless of fuel, crashing almost every time.

[techumseh]

That's not always the case, DV. Air units operating from cities have a much higher probability of returning to base each turn. I estimate it's about 5/6 times for fighters, and significantly better for 2 range bombers. On the other hand, air units starting on a carrier or airfield almost never return to base, but are usually lost unless there is a city within range. The best results for non-city airbases is to use 2 range air units with a moveto event programmed for the return journey.

[Exile]

DV's post instantly reminded me of the 2-ranged fighters suggested in SL's tips section. Would torpedo bombers and navy fighters, all based from carriers, function as intended if they were given the 2-range? Has anyone tried this?

Exile

[klesh]

Just to see if perhaps Case or Bebro could add to this topic with their experiences form their naval-heavy scenarios.

[Case]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
Just to see if perhaps Case or Bebro could add to this topic with their experiences form their naval-heavy scenarios.

I didn't use any missile type units, but I did use aircraft with the submarine flag with good results. The B-24 and Wellington units have the sub flag on, and the AI uses them well.

[kobayashi]

Anybody remember this thread about the spear throwers on a inversed terrain?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...ht=spear+throw

[BeBro]

Originally posted by Field Marshal Klesh
Just to see if perhaps Case or Bebro could add to this topic with their experiences form their naval-heavy scenarios.

Well, I learned most from other designers (esp Cpt.Nemo). For SubWar I used several events to create sea/air units in ocean areas. Their creation points are directly in the path of the players routes.

Often, units that are too weak do simply not attack significant stronger units, even if their tribe is expansionist/aggressive, so if you want that they attack, adjust their combat strength