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Thread: C3C 1st Debug Game (Part 2)

  1. #1
    dexters
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    C3C 1st Debug Game (Part 2)

    Enter the Navy

    I知 a little bit of a nut for AI navies because so much of CivIII (even on Pangea) require the movement of troops trough the seas.

    BreakAway and Firaxis promised something of a boost in the naval warfare area when they announced C3C. I知 really pleased to say that they致e really delivered.

    Good.
    [list=1][*]AI navies are huge. On standard map, a decent sized AI can easily field 20+ destroyers, but battleships and carriers. This compared to my PTW era navy, which amount of 7 destroyers and change. In the context of PTW, those 7 destroyers were probably 7 too many. AI rarely used their big ships and if they did, they could be ignored as a nusience. Not anymore.
    [*]AI navies travel in fleets. A fleet is usually built around a 1) transport 2) carrier. Destroyers are the real workhorse of the AI fleet, it should be yours also. Those who advocate a BB (Battleship) fleet will be happy to know they will be overwhelmed very quickly, unless your productive capacity is such that you can field a BB fleet large enough to counter the destroyers. Also note that the ship stats are such that it will be difficult to numerically challenge an AI DD (Destroyer) fleet with a purely BB fleet.

    BB gets 12 defense and 5 movement. DD (Destroyers) have 12 attack and 8 movement. The BB and DD defense-attack is actually an even match and Because it has more movement, DD ships will often be attacking the Battleships, and that means plenty of your expensive BBs will meet the Titanic faster than you can say, 的知 the king of the world

    Standard escort duties are something like 4 DD + 1 transport. Or 4DD + 1 Carrier (CV) Cruisers are surprisingly little used and given its halfway status
    [*]I had complained vigorously when watching PTW debug games how god awful AI amphibious invasions were. This had been fixed. AI invasions in the middle to late game are now worth something. They land plenty of troops in fleets. In the tiny map debug game I知 watching, the standard is 3 fleets on the landing, usually up to 12-17 units.
    [*]Marines are used. Although they don稚 show up quite as much as I壇 like. Naturally, they now show up way more often now and are the preferred choice for the AI to sneak an attack on one coastal cities that you think is safe. I rarely see them used along with the bulk of AI landing fleets. They seem to be more like one-offs than anything. [/list=1]

    This is a continent v. continent game. Again, based off of my 60x60 TINY CONTINENTS MAP. 4 AI players. Note the minimap below shows that the other 2 civs have been sent into oblivion so this is the war of the superpowers.

    Then, have a look at the following screenshot. Note the sheer devastation the AI invasions now inflict. No land bridges here folks. That damage and all those troops were landed by transports.

    The only time I致e seen it happen in a debug game or any game is when 2 civs split a continent, both go to war, and the third civ declares war on the losing party, lands a small force and capture 1 city unopposed. That痴 as far as it goes. Note that the Sumerians (light blue) have razed every city except one. This is presumably their base of operations. In PTW, under similar conditions, the AI couldn稚 create something like this if their life depended on it. I can稚 really ask for much more here, since my inclination would have been to keep as many cities as I can. But given the AI is the AI, razing is just as good and I accept it.

    Setting the Scene
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    Last edited by dexters; November 15, 2003 at 04:58.

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    dexters
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    The Landing
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  3. #3
    dexters
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    The Result
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  4. #4
    dexters
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    The Bad
    [list=1][*]Plenty of problems persists. I had noted before the AI likes to suicide its initial landing party into the next target after capturing the first target, instead of doing what humans usually do, and that is to fortify into the city and wait for reinforcements, or attack only 1 hp targets with mobile units to pick off vulnerable stray units within range.

    This unfortunately is not how the AI operates, unless it was an amphibious landing and the transported units move right into the habour, most of the time, inland cities are taken and 2 or 3 token defenders are left behind while the rest of the invasion force go their merry way instead of hunkering down to wait for a counterattack.

    Because it lands so many units now, this weakness is sometimes hidden, but look at the screenshot (first one) of Iznik, a town the Sumerians took from the Incas as their 澱ase of operations to heal injured units. But look at the defenders and look at the units around it. Shouldn稚 that stack of Mech infs be defending? I壇 think so too. But it痴 going to attack the next target.

    This oversight really cost the AI. After capturing Iznik and razing all those towns, the Sumerians look set to crush the Incas (pink). But this is where the war got stalemated. Insufficient defenders in Iznik meant the town was taken and retaken again and again throughout the war. It lasted for 30 plus turns and the Sumerians never held it for more than 3 turns. This leads me to the next bad point
    [*]The AI invasion has a single track mind. It will land in a spot. Take a city and instead of feeding more troops trough the same route the reinforce that beach head, the invasion literally stops. Wait 5 turns and the next back of troops lands at a new target. Meanwhile, the initial forces on the beach heads are getting hammered, lost, and the beach head is lost. Once lost, the AI launches another massive attack, and the cycle repeats itself.

    There were so many instances where I just wanted to take control of the Sumerian fleet and reinforce Iznik myself.
    [*]Related to this is how the AI landing party operates. As noted, once a city is taken, the bulk of the forces move out to new targets. The problem is, when the counterattack comes and the city (Iznik) is lost, all the units that had moved out make a u-turn and recapture Iznik. All of them. This leads to see-saw movements and the momentum is totally lost. The AI should be able to handle more than one target at any one time so that some of the units can move ahead instead of wasting another turn doubling back.
    [*]Naval Bombard is not working. Battleships do bombard titles, occasionally, but most of it is blowing up fortified troops inside cities. Some targets appear ligitimate with land troops nearby. Other targets, like bombarding a unit protecting a radar tower half a map away with no land troops in sight is just plain dumb. As noted, this should be fixed so that all ships focus more on title bombardment. Destroy those road networks in around the core cities and slow down production and commerce.[/list=1]

    Suggested Fixed
    [list=1][*]Fortify more troops. Up the number to a minimum of 5.[*]Alexman had noted in the Bug/Fixes thread that removing the offensive flag on Mech infs is a priority. Doing this I think should make them defend. But I wonder if the AI will bring any Mech infs at all in their transports if that offensive tag is taken out[*]A solution might be to require 1 defensive unit for every two offensive unit the AI brings in their transports. For a ratio like 4 offensive 2 defensive.[*]AI should have more than one target at any one time. This may be problematic and may serve only to create ineffective peacemal invasions unless implemented properly. So I put this is a pie in the sky wishlist item.[*]If the above is not workable, at least fix the AI such that it will continue feeding troops on the beachhead it creates. I think this is the single biggest problem. It destroys the AI momentum completely when the beachhead is not reinforced after the initial landings.[*]AI should build more marines and use them more often to harrass coastal cities. Taking out defenders, razing cities etc, should help keep the opponent AI off balance and keep pressure off the actual beachhead.[/list=1]
    Last edited by dexters; November 15, 2003 at 04:47.

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    Catt
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    Nice thread

    Catt

  6. #6
    Theseus
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    Excellent feedback for the developers.
    The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

    Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

  7. #7
    Panag
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    Arrow

    hi ,

    excellent thread

    have a nice day

  8. #8
    TechWins
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    Good work, dexters.
    However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one痴 feelings and even one痴 conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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