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Civ3 Christmas Chat, December 21, 2001

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[jymmyg] i havent played ctp2. would you recommend it if a liked civ3?
[ACS_MarkG] i'll have to find the link hold on :)
[draz2] I wouldnt....
[adaMada] on topic. dan and jeff: do you think that armies are underpowered/overpowered/just right
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] If it's from ACOL...don't bother..
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I've been pushing to be able to upgrade units in them
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Jymmy it's a tough call, I really abhorred the interface in CTP
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] We'll see
[DilithiumDad] Armies stimk!
[David_M] ok, i'm signing off now. thanks Dan and Jeff, for a most illuminating chat! can't wait for the new editor functions! :) enjoy the movie dan....
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Cya
[adaMada] lol, please, please, please jeff :D
[DGahaFIRAXIS] thanks David
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I got about 15 more minutes...any last questions?
[ACS_MarkG]
give me stacks!

[Ii_Shenron] Boxers or briefs?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Freeball
[Misfire] MarkG, how soon until a raw transcript of this chat appears? I missed most of the meat! -/
[quinalla] hehe
[DGahaFIRAXIS] oh god
[DilithiumDad] Espionage is too tough! Any way to make it more useful and less easy to ignore?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] too much information
[Ii_Shenron] Everyone wants to know.
[jlc9539] Guys, thanks a lot. It's been great talking with you. I need to get back to work.
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I'm trying to get some of the espionage options untied to the intelligence center...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] cya
[jymmyg] have the firaxis fellas played the boardgame "axis and allies"?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] with 1.16f you should be able to lower espy mission base cost
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I'm addicted to History of the World these days
[ACS_MarkG] thanks for coming here Jeff!
[DGahaFIRAXIS] the last boardgame I played was Dark Tower =D
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Color me jelous..
[DilithiumDad] Where is this mythical intelligence center? Is this from clicking the capital symbol on your opponents capital?
[ACS_MarkG] actually, does anyone have a log of the begining of the chat?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Or the little 'e' icons on the info box (once you have the structure)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] icon..
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Mark I can send you one
[beegboss] moo3 can wait.. where is MOM2? :)
[draz2] what civ u usually play with civ3?
[DilithiumDad] Yes --those teeny tiny one-letter buttons on the info box that are almost invisible!
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I'll email it to you afterwards
[ACS_MarkG] civ3 #5 on the latest chips&bits chart. but not harry potter or sims in them
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I like the japanese and aztecs...
[draz2] why?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] What is it that Beer is always saying, "Real Men play Random"
[jymmyg] playing civ3 is extremely reminiecient of playing the board game "axis and allies" , complete with the units looking like the playing pieces (especially the bombers)
[ACS_MarkG] thanks Dan, i forgot to enable logging from the begining :)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Relgion civs, samurai and jaguar warriors!
[DGahaFIRAXIS] np mark
[adaMada] why religion?
[draz2] why are the French so popular?
[ACS_MarkG] i'll be travelling tomorrow, expect a transcript on sunday
[adaMada] commercial and industrious...
[DGahaFIRAXIS] my guess is the cheese and wine draz
[adaMada] for the french
[DilithiumDad] Did you discuss the retreat option? Jaguars can overrun anything early on.
[ColdFever] Would it be possible to add some "personality" parameters to the AI leaders beyond aggressiveness? It shouldn't be too hard to program some sympathy/antipathy parameters for certain environments, so that the AI behaves a bit more "human" (like in SMAC)
[draz2] I dont like the french hehe
[draz2] :)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I love gear stripping my government based on the situation at hand...regligion civs make that very painless
[adaMada] lol, ah
[draz2] is it true that certain civs tend to attack other civs quicker?
[Ii_Shenron] Did anyone ask about the possibility of playing multiplayer over email?
[ACS_MarkG] Jeff, Dan, you should make a 4 expansion packs like the Sims (seen the latest NPDI charts?) :)
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Kai a good idea but who knows if something like that could be retrofitted onto the existing AI
[beegboss] Is it every worthwhile to take over cities on another landmass? Seems like all the effort for 1 shield 1 commerce producing city is never worth it.
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Not sure about that...
[draz2] for instance french vs England?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] They tend to start next to each other though
[draz2] why is that?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Mark: it's certainly a phenomenon
[DilithiumDad] Jeff, I agreee about government switches. In SMAC, I used a SE-cycling strat to pump up pop then energy
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] The cultural linking stuff
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Amen
[DilithiumDad] Culture is what makes the game --a stroke of genius!
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] I couldn't pronounce half those techs in SMAC, but sure loved the game
[Ii_Shenron] I've been meaning to beat the snot out of my friends who think they know everything. F'eh. "People who know everything are of extreme annoyance to those of us who really do."
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Culture integrated very well into the existing systems.
[Misfire] Sentient Econometrics!
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Organic Superlubricant!
[DilithiumDad] The techs are right out of standard sci-fi literature, so I knew all right away
[DGahaFIRAXIS] my favorite was Organic Superlubricant
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Brian was a fan of teh genre
[MLarsen] wonder why? ;)
[draz2] i didnt like SMAC didnt like the graphics dunno or not the sci fi....
[DGahaFIRAXIS] it sounds so... underwhelming for such a late game tech
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] History is definately a wider audience setting
[jymmyg] what need to happen for a multiplayer patch?
[Misfire] SMAC is probably still my favorite game of the Civ genre.
[DilithiumDad] Never could figure out why fusion lasers needed lubrication!
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Sci-fi games have their work cut out for them
[Misfire] Not that Civ III is any slouch. :-)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] for every 1 sci-fi hit, there's like 25 misses
[DGahaFIRAXIS] RPGs are in the same boat, my favorite genre and it's dying a slow painful death
[DilithiumDad] Very crowded field, for sure. Homeworld must have taken a lot of raw code...
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Last chance!
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Last I heard it sold under 100k
[ACS_MarkG] do you think that if there is someone that can make RTS interesting, that's the BHG people? :)
[Ii_Shenron] BHG? Big Hairy Gamers?
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Let me again thank all the mod and map makers out there...We're watching your work with interest and look forward to enabling your creativity even further
[Misfire] Black Hole Generator. :-)
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] BHG's game will be a good one...Will it be successful is the question!
[DilithiumDad] My SMAC maps have been popular for tournament play,
[DGahaFIRAXIS] hey, one of my favorite MOO weapons
[draz2] ok take care guys and thanks for coming here :)
[DilithiumDad] might try my hand at Civ3!
[MLarsen] it was bugged..
[Jeff_Morris_FIRAXIS] Cya..Thanks again...Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays
[ACS_MarkG] jeff isnt good=succesfull? :)
[DilithiumDad] Happy holidays
[DGahaFIRAXIS] not necessarily Mark
[DGahaFIRAXIS] think Looking Glass Studios
[adaMada] happy holidays
[Ii_Shenron] Jolly Kwanza.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] never made a bad game but they didn't sell to the mass market
[ACS_MarkG] what did they do? (see i forgot about them already)
[Misfire] Oh, God--there's a sad tale if ever there was one.
[Ii_Shenron] Thief, I think.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Thief, Thief II, System Shock II
[jymmyg] fly
[Misfire] Terra Nova, a game ahead of its time.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] even though System Shock II wasn't developed by them
[DilithiumDad] Those sold by Sierra?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] IIRC, that is
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Eidos
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Thief = Eidos, System Shock II was EA I think
[DilithiumDad] My son and I still play outpost2 on our home LAN --unmatched multiplayer
[ACS_MarkG] speaking of sales Dan, who currently owns firaxis?
[draz2] were really changes made in civ3 cuz of 11 sept?
[Misfire] Shock/Shock2 were published by EA.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Firaxis is privately owned
[ACS_MarkG] draz, fundamendalism was cut due to it
[ACS_MarkG] jeff b and sid?
[draz2] really?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] basically
[ACS_MarkG] what's the current stock price? ;)
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I don't think private companies have stock prices, do they?
[ACS_MarkG] i think i could get yin to create civers fund to buy a large amount of stocks :)
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Trying for a hostile takeover, eh? :D
[ACS_MarkG] then we could have a say in the company decisions :D
[DilithiumDad] I have a Civ3 question --how can I get my 13-year-old son off it so I can have a trun?
[ACS_MarkG] lists are not always working as much as we would like :D
[Gramphos] Speaking of prices... How mush is the name Civilization worth?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] DilithiumDad: try using the "because I'm the dad, and I said so!" argument. Worked for my Dad when I was younger.
[ACS_MarkG] well, how many other microprose games were released after being bought by hasbro?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Gramphos: I really don't know, it's wholly owned by Infogrames, but I suspect it's quite valuable to them
[adaMada] Dan: If you make a civ 4, do you really HAVE to do it with Infogrames? ;)
[ACS_MarkG] dan when are you coming back to make some updates on civ3.com? :)
[beegboss] what about a colonization sequel ;)
[ACS_MarkG] adamada, yeap
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Ada: yes, they own the name
[adaMada] i hate it when i'm right :( ;)
[jymmyg] colonization was cool too.. from what a remember
[jymmyg] I remember
[jymmyg] heh
[ColdFever] I am glad Infogrames does not own the name "Sid Meier" ;)
[Gramphos] How owns Colonization?
[Gramphos] Who
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Kai, I'm sure Sid is pleased at that too
[beegboss] ColdFever they probably tried to
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Gramphos: Infogrames owns all of the Microprose/Hasbro titles
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Mark: I'll be back in after new years, not sure what the plans are for civ3.com at that point though
[beegboss] someone tell those idiots to stop pumping out atari remakes and work on master of magic 2 :)
[jymmyg] i liked the first game i ever saw from infogrames DRAKKEN
[beegboss] alone in the dark was one of their early games
[DGahaFIRAXIS] That's another strong franchise for them
[beegboss] too bad AITD2 was all action and not as much puzzles like the first game
[jymmyg] i think alone in the dark inspired resident exil
[beegboss] I finished AITD and it was pretty fun puzzle game and I start AITD2 and Im running around shooting like I am playing quake
[jymmyg] hehe evil
[DilithiumDad] There was a comment on the Apolyton forums, sidely agreed with, that the AI factions should gang up on you once you have a clear lead
[ACS_MarkG] dan, do you think there will be lots of "civ3 vs moo3" comparison? who's going to win? :D
[DilithiumDad] That was programmed into SMAC --once you got to be twice as big as the #2 faction they would all declare vendetta on you --why not in civ3?
[Misfire] Aren't such comparisons ultimately pointless?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Perhaps Mark...
[Misfire] If MOO3 is a good game, people will play it. Why does everything have to be a competition for some people?
[Misfire] Play both, be happy. :-)
[beegboss] DGahaFIRAXIS: seriously.. do any of you know what happened to the Simtex folks? I mean they have nothing to do with MOO3 right?
[jymmyg] speaking of that.. what would you consider civ3 main genre competion currently?
[adaMada] well, i'm heading off. thanks to Dan (and Jeff) for a wonderful chat session, and happy holidays to all!
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I saw Moo3 at E3 and based on some of the comments I have seen by some of Apolytoners I think Moo3 will appeal to them
[DGahaFIRAXIS] See ya ada
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Jymmy, in this business we are competing with a lot of people
[Ii_Shenron] So, is there any chance that in the future you will be able to play a game over email?
[jymmyg] so theres no "pepsi" to your "coke"?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] not just PC games, not just gaming -- music, DVD's, I think people shop for all of these things with the same mindset and out of the same budget category
[beegboss] I can imagine how long a LAN game would take.. play by email would take a year
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I don't know whether PBEM is on or not to be honest
[ACS_MarkG] there are people who do play pbem though....
[draz2] leaving too thx :)
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I've been a proponent of it
[ACS_MarkG] the ctp1 community actually is all about pbem now
[ACS_MarkG] and half the smac community(the other being fiction)
[DGahaFIRAXIS] However I can tell you that Hasbro who used to do the email games was very excited about PBEM at one time but the response they got led them to shut down the whole infrastructure
[jymmyg] it be nice if a real multiplay option was implemented.. especially for those diplomecy screens
[ACS_MarkG] so what are you doing on your vacation Dan? :)
[jymmyg] It seems that mp would in theory double sales
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Well this week I was preparing for graduation
[DGahaFIRAXIS] and I've been playing a lot of Arcanum as well
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Plan to see some movies, try to finish Arcanum, and spend some quality time with my Dreamcast
[jymmyg] are you a fan of bioware games dan?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Jymmy yes and no
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I think they are a great company, and I like their engine but I don't get into BG or BG2 too much
[DilithiumDad] What's Arcanum?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] DD it's an RPG done by the same people who did Fallout
[jymmyg] it helps if you were raised on the dnd material i supposed
[The_Eli] Is it as good as Fallout?
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Troika games, who are another great group of people BTW, met them at E3 and they are just fantastic folks
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Eli: it's hard to fairly compare the two, as I consider Fallout to be one of the best games ever
[jymmyg] mp arcanum could be better but its still a cool game
[DGahaFIRAXIS] But Arcanum is a really fun game
[clickme--> markus :) den moiazw me diafhmish??? :)
[The_Eli] Dan : Me too. After Civ2 of course. :)
[DGahaFIRAXIS] but of course
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Sadly though, I don't think Arcanum has even broken 100,000 units
[jymmyg] civ2 is mp right?
[ColdFever] As I understand Infogrames holds the rights of the original titles and Firaxis is going to program them. But is the title really that important? I think most of people would also have bought "Sid Meier's History of Mankind" as well. IMHO the fans admire the name and the spirit of the artists and not so much the name of the game.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] That's questionable Kai, some people would say the reason CTP2 didn't sell was because people didn't realize it was a Civilization game
[jymmyg] they spoke well of civ3 on techtv's "extended play"
[Ii_Shenron] TechTV is eh.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I like Dvorak. I watched him tear into a RIAA rep one time it was hilarious
[Ii_Shenron] What type of work was done to prevent people from making illegal copies of the game?
[The_Eli] LOL
[ACS_MarkG] actually, i'd say ctp2 didnt sell cause ctp1 was advertised as "civ3" while it wasnt ;)
[ColdFever] If the game is great it is an honour to buy it - a great game is the best copy protection
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Yeah some would say that too Mark
[ESPL-SlasH] (quinalla): what an email-civ feature? =)
[ESPL-SlasH] ooops
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Well, anyone who's been in this business more than a week knows you can't really prevent it, you just try to make it really really difficult
[ESPL-SlasH] shoud be Q
[ESPL-SlasH] new try
[Ii_Shenron] ColdFever: I agree, but many people don't.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] But to answer the question, that is again the domain of the publisher, since it's their game
[ESPL-SlasH] Q : what an email-civ feature? =)
[ESPL-SlasH] aaarghs cant type ;)
[ESPL-SlasH] Q : what about an email-civ feature? =)
[ESPL-SlasH] now i got it
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Infogrames uses SafeDisc (as does EA and many other publishers)
[The_Eli] And it doesnt help at all. As you said, the only thing you can do is to make a great game.
[ColdFever] Ii_Shenron - the people who don't agree are just cloning it anyway.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Well, I think it probably stops some casual copying, but clearly not the organized warez groups.
[Ii_Shenron] That's true. But I read somewhere that most of the sales for a game comes within the first two months of its release.
[Ii_Shenron] I'd try to make it as hard as possible.
[jymmyg] in your random civ3 games dan, which civ do you hope you'll get? :)
[Ii_Shenron] Or as tedious as possible.
[The_Eli] li - One more day of waiting for those who wont buy the game anyway. It's useless.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Oh I dunno, since I'm a culturemonger the Egyptians are nice
[ColdFever] I think a great program needs no copy protection (think about MS software)- I even would prefer to buy all games as shareware. Of course you would less copies, but it would be all the money to the artists and not to the business machine.
[ESPL-SlasH] blue letters suck, i have blue as background color :p
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Well people also need to be reminded that there are real people with real bills behind the software, and not some giant nameless corporation
[Ii_Shenron] Yeah.
[ESPL-SlasH] hmm, am i invisible? what a bout my question? :|
[DGahaFIRAXIS] If you're asking about play by email, I answered that already?
[ESPL-SlasH] did you?
[ESPL-SlasH] didnt noticed ;)
[Ii_Shenron] I'd much rather pay you (the developers) than you and the publishers. But I guess life isn't perfect.
[bahoo] i was late to log on, this may have been asked, but are there any plans to change the way city deposing works?
[DGahaFIRAXIS]
[DGahaFIRAXIS] I don't know whether PBEM is on or not to be honest
[ColdFever] I think the music artists are already tired of the music business and I see it coming for the computer business as well.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Slighly different model though because games will always need support, whereas CD's generally don't.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] So small developers will probably always need a publisher to help them support a title if it's going to be a big seller
[ColdFever] only CD's with hard copy protection of course
[DGahaFIRAXIS] bahoo I don't know, that would be Soren's domain but I have not heard any plans to change this
[DilithiumDad] I suppose PBEM would be very slow in Civ3] I am in a 7-player SMAC PBEM that started in September 1999 and I am just getting to Secrets of Alpha Centauri this week!
[ESPL-SlasH] hmmm cant see an answer to my question anywhere, sorry. maybe i just didnt unstand it, english is not my native language
[jymmyg] they tried recently to protect music cds from being mp3'ed, that was a disaster
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Slash the answer is I'm not sure
[ESPL-SlasH] ah, =)
[DilithiumDad] PBEM = Play By E-Mial
[ESPL-SlasH] oh, did not know that
[Ii_Shenron] DilithiumDad: mmm... that sounds like a lot of fun
[ESPL-SlasH] tnx
[DGahaFIRAXIS] the death of the middleman has been greatly exagerrated =)
[FrantzX] Is Firaxis still working on the AI? Posts on Apolyton are showing ways it can be improved.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Frantz: yes, Soren reads Apolyton frequently
[DilithiumDad] Adding the gang-up feature from the SMAC Ai engine would solve elate-game tedium problem
[ESPL-SlasH] gotta go now, tnx for another great adictive civ game @ fireaxis! visit our chatroom @ irc.quakenet.org #civ3 CYA & take care !
[DilithiumDad] I don't mean elate-game, I mean late-game!
[DGahaFIRAXIS] bye slash
[DGahaFIRAXIS] well the AI ganging up on you could very well solve elation problems
[FrantzX] Ha, ha.
[DilithiumDad] Well, once you get the lead you should have to protect it and not have it just continue to widen!
[Ii_Shenron] I concur.
[ColdFever] I think Civ3 should not go for a hard game but a civilized game - I wonder what you american guys would say if we small europeans had to declare war now that you are the most powerful nation
[DGahaFIRAXIS] That's true, though I always like a brief plateau where you think you're going to run away with it before you get more heat
[DGahaFIRAXIS] What do you mean, Kai
[Ii_Shenron] Having it as an option would be nice.
[FrantzX] NEW BUG - As the Babylonians, I hit the modern age and it asked me what tech to choose. I picked Rocketry. Because I'm Scientific, I now get a free tech. I got Rocketry. The Sid-head said that I learned Rocketry from the Russians and asked me to choose another tech.
[DilithiumDad] Well, the French, Germans and Russans SHOULD gang up on the Americans if they are running away with the game!
[The_Eli] And they have only 48 turns left to do it.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] frantz, I'm pretty sure we have that one in the bug database but you can use the bug report form on firaxis.com to send it in
[ColdFever] Thats what I meant - I see a tendency to make the game hard to beat even if that means it gets "unreal".
[FrantzX] OK
[Gallagher] gallagher25
[DGahaFIRAXIS] well you guys should know our unofficial credo on reality, that it fun and reality collide, fun will always get priority
[DGahaFIRAXIS] it= if
[ColdFever] But my kind of fun may not be your kind of fun - I am too old for fights:)
[Ii_Shenron] I like that credo a lot.
[ColdFever] And I think to catch a big nation would be possible without a war
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Well guys, I need to get some housework done and some presents wrapped. Thanks to everyone who participated and to Mark for setting it up.
[ColdFever] In reality you could for example "share your wonders"
[FrantzX] You know, I don't think some people will be happy with the AI, until the community gets the source code to it with instructions for compiling it.
[ColdFever] great idea FrantzX!
[ACS_MarkG] many thanks for being here Dan!!
[Ii_Shenron] Bye.
[ACS_MarkG] i'm waiting for your log!
[FrantzX] Bye.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Sure, I missed the last few figured I ought to make this one :)
[FrantzX] Thanks for putting up with us.
[ColdFever] Yes, thanks from Germany too and have a nice Christmas time, bye!
[DGahaFIRAXIS] thanks and happy holidays to you all as well.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Mark, I'll send this log over to you in a few minutes.
[DGahaFIRAXIS] Later!

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