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Apolyton Civilization Site Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Site Forums > Miscellaneous > Off Topic > I'm not sure which offends me more, the racism, or the sexism.
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Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
30-09-2008 22:10 | www
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#1 | report |
I'm not sure which offends me more, the racism, or the sexism. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition


Hey, sister, empower yourself through submission

quote:
Ever wonder what social contortions you must endure to marry a count? The good news is you should have plenty of extra time to pick out your smashing outfits, lady, because according to LuAnn de Lesseps -- countess, housewife and star of "The Real Housewives of New York City," -- being the wife of a count certainly doesn't include answering e-mails. According to the New York Post, de Lesseps interrupted two women having drinks at the St. Regis bar, one of whom was Korean and surfing Web sites on her BlackBerry, to dispense some friendly advice about the finer nuances of female empowerment:

quote:
I see you working so hard on your BlackBerry; you can't switch off. And I believe in empowering women, because I myself am a woman, so let me give you this advice. When men see females on their BlackBerrys working hard, it really turns them off. Men like women to be females, to not be like workaholics, as that comes off as being uptight in the bedroom and control freaks. With you being Asian, you have an advantage. My European friends in particular adore Asian females because of their submissiveness. So work that to your advantage. At the same time, I can sympathize with you as a woman in New York City, but you have to do what you have to do to snag a man.


Awesome. Stop Googling the mortgage crisis, baby, because if you strike just the right look of starry-eyed wonder, some rich dude might install you in a house of your own -- paid for in euros (and your dignity).


Which should I be more bothered by?

The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
Apolyton Minister of Culture
Aug 1999
time: 03:00
30-09-2008 22:18
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The fact that there's a show called "The Real Housewives of New York City".

The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
Apolyton Minister of Culture
Aug 1999
time: 03:00
30-09-2008 22:24
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And I don't know why I even decided to look more into this, but here's some more of that NYPost article that was being quoted on Salon:

quote:
And with that, de Lesseps, who's married to Alexandre Count de Lesseps but has been caught in clinches with other men this year, announced, "There are no cute men worth my attention here," and left.

Luann said, via her spokesman, Howard Rubenstein, "As someone of Native American heritage, I don't tolerate ethnic stereotyping. But I will say I'm a big believer in manners, and excessive use of a BlackBerry at a table is impolite."


There are stupid people in all classes. Just ignore them. And don't watch their shows.

Flubber
Alpha Centauri PBEMACDG PeaceAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG The Human HiveACDG Planet University of TechnologyACDG The Cybernetic Consciousness
Deity
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 01:00
30-09-2008 22:34
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You should probably be most bothered by the fact that you seem to care what some random person-- countess tv personality etc said.

So she comes across as racist and perhaps favors being a "kept woman" or "sugarbabe" or whatever. If that truly works for her, isn't that her choice? If she wishes to express her opinion, is not that her right, no matter how idiotic we think her opinion may be?

Chemical Ollie
King
Hooked on a feeling
Jan 2002
time: 09:00
30-09-2008 22:36
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quote:
Ever wonder what social contortions you must endure to marry a qunt?

Zkribbler
Deity
Los Angeles, CA, USA
Feb 1999
time: 00:00
30-09-2008 23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber
... If she wishes to express her opinion, is not that her right, no matter how idiotic we think her opinion may be?


No one is trying to shut her up. The question is were her comments sexists and/or racist?

Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
30-09-2008 23:42 | www
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No, the question is which should bother me more.

For what it's worth, I didn't even know a show like that existed until I saw this post on Broadsheet.

The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
Apolyton Minister of Culture
Aug 1999
time: 03:00
30-09-2008 23:42
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They were the kinds of comments trophy wives make. Basically the whole reason they're trophy wives in the first place.

Trouble is, this one got a TV show, but people only watch it because they want to see how a trophy wife behaves when not on the shelf.

-Jrabbit
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II MultiplayerMacCivilization IV: MultiplayerCivilization II Succession Games
Emperor
of the Electronic Egyptians
Feb 2002
time: 02:00
01-10-2008 01:58
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for this not being an election thread

Imran Siddiqui
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on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Jan 1970
time: 03:00
01-10-2008 02:13
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Kidicious believes you can't detect sexism, so it must be the racism

Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
01-10-2008 02:26 | www
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By Jove! I never thought of it that way, Imran dear. I think you're right!

What a goddamn racist.

Kidicious
Deity
Lurking occasionally
Mar 2003
time: 00:00
01-10-2008 02:32 | www
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It's true. You're both insane. So is this women. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Kuciwalker
Deity
Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Feb 2001
time: 03:00
01-10-2008 03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
The fact that there's a show called "The Real Housewives of New York City".

Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
01-10-2008 15:03 | www
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Yeah, I think I'm offended that there is that show, too.

Agathon
Mac
Emperor
Wal supports the CPA
Dec 2002
time: 17:00
01-10-2008 15:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Flubber

So she comes across as racist and perhaps favors being a "kept woman" or "sugarbabe" or whatever. If that truly works for her, isn't that her choice? If she wishes to express her opinion, is not that her right, no matter how idiotic we think her opinion may be?


And here you do a good job of expressing the complete moral bankruptcy of our society. This is what happens when people mistake rules of political and social expediency for moral rules.

Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
01-10-2008 15:14 | www
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It's her right to express her opinion. It's her right to choose that life.

It's also the right of the public to point out those glaring examples of ignorance, and to point out that she's an utter failure of a human.

Agathon
Mac
Emperor
Wal supports the CPA
Dec 2002
time: 17:00
01-10-2008 15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles
It's her right to express her opinion. It's her right to choose that life.


Just because you say it, does not make it true.

If you really believed it was OK for anyone to live this way, you'd believe it about your own children. But no sane person does. Nor does any sane person believe that people have an unlimited right of free speech.

The practice of marrying trophy wives brings shame on both parties.

The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
Apolyton Minister of Culture
Aug 1999
time: 03:00
01-10-2008 15:28
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If my daughter wanted to be a trophy wife, I wouldn't think it would be ok. But I wouldn't stop her. Once she turns 18, it is her life. I'd try and dissuade her, but I wouldn't tie her up in a basement to prevent it, and you can be sure I'd try to continue to be a part of her life.

But hopefully, I'd raise her in such a way that being a trophy wife wouldn't be a consideration.

Agathon
Mac
Emperor
Wal supports the CPA
Dec 2002
time: 17:00
01-10-2008 15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
If my daughter wanted to be a trophy wife, I wouldn't think it would be ok. But I wouldn't stop her. Once she turns 18, it is her life. I'd try and dissuade her, but I wouldn't tie her up in a basement to prevent it, and you can be sure I'd try to continue to be a part of her life.

But hopefully, I'd raise her in such a way that being a trophy wife wouldn't be a consideration.


The problem is that there used to be a set of sanctions in between laws and individual persuasion – namely social sanctions. Even the upper classes used to behave themselves for fear of being shamed socially.

Now we live in the shameless society and have to put up with **** like this. People rant about shameless welfare moms, but this bint is even worse.

Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
01-10-2008 15:59 | www
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Agathon, dear, did you not see the NEXT ****ING SENTENCE that I wrote? Don't pull a Kid on me.

As far as children and so on goes: if I raised them, and that's how they chose to live their life, I'd be highly disappointed.

And I wouldn't let them forget it. Ever. And they are just as free to try and cut me out of their life as I am of trying to pull them back to sanity.

Agathon
Mac
Emperor
Wal supports the CPA
Dec 2002
time: 17:00
01-10-2008 16:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Snuggles
Agathon, dear, did you not see the NEXT ****ING SENTENCE that I wrote? Don't pull a Kid on me.


Yeah I did. My point was rather more oblique. I guess I better explain myself better. My point is that historically, in between the law and individual acts of disapproval there were social rules that carried a kind of intermediate weight. Now there are really no effective sanctions in between making something illegal or telling someone that you personally don't like it. Formerly, you could express your personal disapproval and it would be backed by the societal disapproval which gave your criticism weight. The intermediate sanctions were provided by social rules and the attendant shame that people garnered by breaking them. Their withering is why we have a more or less shameless society.

In former times such social disapproval would have carried much more weight than it now does. The social context of disapproval has changed and made it virtually ineffective. This is the main reason that press photographers can now get away with jamming cameras up starlets' skirts as they get out of cars.

So sure, we can disapprove, but it won't bear any real weight. We can't make acting like this illegal, and so our society fills up with boneheads like this which ruins everyone else's day.

Patroklos
Emperor
Charleston, SC No more ships! A lot more drinking!
Dec 2001
time: 08:00
01-10-2008 16:11
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Agathon






I am going to go vommit now

Agathon
Mac
Emperor
Wal supports the CPA
Dec 2002
time: 17:00
01-10-2008 16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Agathon






I am going to go vommit now


I am in ur mind, killing ur doodz.

The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
Apolyton Minister of Culture
Aug 1999
time: 03:00
01-10-2008 16:30
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#24 | report |
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


The problem is that there used to be a set of sanctions in between laws and individual persuasion – namely social sanctions. Even the upper classes used to behave themselves for fear of being shamed socially.


Trophy wives are not a new thing. In fact, 60 years back the motto was "women should be seen and not heard". What WAS an Upper Class wife if not a trophy wife (in most cases)?

Also, the social approval was from the rich inner circles. Now with media being what it is, even the considerations of the middle and lower classes are viewed as shaping society. This is why people believe they have a right to know anything and everything about the personal lives of celebrities.

There used to be more privacy.

Kidicious
Deity
Lurking occasionally
Mar 2003
time: 00:00
01-10-2008 16:54 | www
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This lady is right though. She probably is more likely to land a rich guy by making herself look stupid.

That said, I'll repeat what I already said. She's got some mental problem, probably having to do with narcissim.

Q Classic
Emperor
The cities of Orly and Nowai
Apr 1999
time: 02:00
01-10-2008 16:56 | www
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Agathon, the point there is more accurate, and one I agree --to an extent-- with.

Honestly, though, I don't know if a middle ground can be found, since legislation of certain social paradigms would be offensive to me, and non-legislated social opprobrium seems to change with the wind, as well as be dependent on cultural backgrounds.

aneeshm
King
Pune , Maharshtra
Jul 2001
time: 13:30
02-10-2008 06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon


Yeah I did. My point was rather more oblique. I guess I better explain myself better. My point is that historically, in between the law and individual acts of disapproval there were social rules that carried a kind of intermediate weight. Now there are really no effective sanctions in between making something illegal or telling someone that you personally don't like it. Formerly, you could express your personal disapproval and it would be backed by the societal disapproval which gave your criticism weight. The intermediate sanctions were provided by social rules and the attendant shame that people garnered by breaking them. Their withering is why we have a more or less shameless society.

In former times such social disapproval would have carried much more weight than it now does. The social context of disapproval has changed and made it virtually ineffective. This is the main reason that press photographers can now get away with jamming cameras up starlets' skirts as they get out of cars.

So sure, we can disapprove, but it won't bear any real weight. We can't make acting like this illegal, and so our society fills up with boneheads like this which ruins everyone else's day.





Wait. WTF?

If this isn't a generally conservative opinion, I don't know what is.

Agathon
Mac
Emperor
Wal supports the CPA
Dec 2002
time: 17:00
02-10-2008 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by aneeshm





Wait. WTF?

If this isn't a generally conservative opinion, I don't know what is.


Not really. The real argument is about what the social rules should be. Conservatives disagree would disagree with me about those (particularly the compulsory gay rape for fundies thing, but other aspects as well no doubt).

More seriously, my set of social rules would be profoundly egalitarian. Historically, such rules have been profoundly inegalitarian. Liberals make the mistake of thinking that to abolish the rules is to abolish the inequality. As we all know, this didn't work out so well.

But liberals are idiots, as we all know. Long live the revolution and all that.

The Emperor Fabulous
Civ4 SP Democracy Game
Prince
Apolyton Minister of Culture
Aug 1999
time: 03:00
02-10-2008 06:38
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quote:
The real argument is about what the social rules should be


I hate the word "should". "Should" dictates a correct path and an incorrect path. I have found, through my travels, that there is no "should" path, only "could" paths.

Dr Strangelove
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
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USA
Jan 1970
time: 03:00
02-10-2008 12:45
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But what if de Lesseps is right?

 
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