How do you split an empire?

jez9999 · July 20, 2008, 15:36

Something I've been meaning to ask for a while but forgot. :-) Occasionally, when you take another nation's capital city, their empire will split into 2 factions. It's extremely rare though and I haven't had it happen for ages, even when I take the capital of a very big empire. Is there a way to make this more likely, and is taking a capital the only way to do it?

rjmatsleepers · July 20, 2008, 18:53

I'm pretty sure that capturing the capital is the only way to split an empire. There was some discussion of this in one of the succession games. It sticks in my mind that you have to be smaller than the AI to get the empire to split. I can't remember whether the ability of the AI to pay to build a new palace has an effect.

RJM

Bloody Monk · July 21, 2008, 15:17

My memory is very shaky any more so I am glad to see RJ step in to help you. Those points seem to be the right ones but I think there is one other important consideration. I seem to recall that you need to have an open slot (a dead civ). The new half of the old empire will be of that missing color.

Civ(2) Lives!!
Monk

Magic_gorter · July 23, 2008, 21:32

The above things mentioned are correct. When attacking an enemy capitol will cause splitting them up in two civs only when they are stronger and there must be an empty slot for a new civ. Splitting up happens directly after capturing the capitol..so there is no change building a new capitol for that civ...

Andemagne · July 23, 2008, 23:35

I can't say that I remember even one time that I have split an empire in Civ2. but that only means that I haven't played enough.

in Civ1 this has happened plenty of times. it had to be a first strike againts that Civ. is it the same with Civ2?

rjmatsleepers · July 24, 2008, 06:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Andemagne

I can't say that I remember even one time that I have split an empire in Civ2. but that only means that I haven't played enough.

in Civ1 this has happened plenty of times. it had to be a first strike againts that Civ. is it the same with Civ2?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by first strike. It is not the case that you have to capture the AI capital before any other city, but if you capture too many other cities, you won't be smaller anymore.

RJM

Bloody Monk · July 24, 2008, 16:58

@ Andemagne

I would bet large that the main reason you never saw a split civ is that you were Supreme.

--must have an open slot for the new civ
--must take the capital city
--must be ranked lower/weaker than the target civ

That last one is something that rarely happens for experienced players...unless you go out of your way to limit the development of your own civ to allow the AI time/space to grow.

If you want to try this sometime, go Early Republic and stay at 5 cities with one or no warriors until 1500ad. That should give the AI plenty of time, esp if the Babs or Egypt or Kelts are in the game.

Monk

rjmatsleepers · July 24, 2008, 19:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

If you want to try this sometime, go Early Republic and stay at 5 cities with one or no warriors until 1500ad. That should give the AI plenty of time, esp if the Babs or Egypt or Kelts are in the game.

Monk

Another possibility is to find the start that was used in a succession game a few years backed - it's somewhere in the Apolyton vaults. We started on an island that was a lot of moves away from anywhere else. We were restricted to one city until a specific date - AD 1500? I can't remember the details, although Monk might.

RJM

Bloody Monk · July 25, 2008, 05:23

Quote:

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers

Another possibility is to find the start that was used in a succession game a few years backed - it's somewhere in the Apolyton vaults. We started on an island that was a lot of moves away from anywhere else. We were restricted to one city until a specific date - AD 1500? I can't remember the details, although Monk might.

RJM

Wow, rj; that takes me back. What a game that was!! It was a Democracy Game, the last in Civ2 I think, and, unfortunately, it was never officially finished, resulting in it not being archived. At least I can't find it. But I do have some saves if anyone wants a huge challenge.

It was 2004, might have been called Civ2 Demo Game4, and might have been started by cavebear...if anyone wants to tickle the database.

I came on board late (around the ad1500 timeframe) at the request of Sparrowhawk, one of the original players I believe. The rules were a major pain. It would have been way too restrictive for my taste--read: boring--until 1500ad. Apparently, Nav (Caravels) could not be researched or maybe built until 1500, so no trade and no exploring. Science was based on size5 Starving/Einsteins.

I really do not remember if we achieved a civ-split, although there were many "Capital-moved-to XXX" occurrences, once we got rolling.

Monk

rjmatsleepers · July 25, 2008, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloody Monk

I really do not remember if we achieved a civ-split, although there were many "Capital-moved-to XXX" occurrences, once we got rolling.

Monk

My recollection is that there was a civ split. I think we went south once we could get off the island and eliminated whoever was there - the Sioux and the Egyptians? We then turned north and had to capture the Zulu capital in order to bring their spaceship back. I'm pretty sure there was a civ split at some point, but it may have been in a continuation after the democracy game ran out of steam.

RJM

russian-player · August 5, 2008, 13:29

Quote:

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I'm pretty sure that capturing the capital is the only way to split an empire. There was some discussion of this in one of the succession games. It sticks in my mind that you have to be smaller than the AI to get the empire to split. I can't remember whether the ability of the AI to pay to build a new palace has an effect.

RJM

About the ability of the AI to pay to build a new palace.

If the enemy civilization has 1000 money in the moment you capture their capital, it can automatically build a new capital in some other city. In the same moment.
--
This rule doesn't affect _splitting_ an empire.

civiijkw · August 5, 2008, 18:05

Quote:

Originally posted by russian-player

About the ability of the AI to pay to build a new palace.

If the enemy civilization has 1000 money in the moment you capture their capital, it can automatically build a new capital in some other city. In the same moment.
--
This rule doesn't affect _splitting_ an empire.

That explains what happened in one frustrating game where I had to take the Mongol capital three times (watching the government twice flee and relocate) before it finally didn't have a palace anymore.

Bloody Monk · August 6, 2008, 15:47

Quote:

Originally posted by civiijkw
That explains what happened in one frustrating game where I had to take the Mongol capital three times (watching the government twice flee and relocate) before it finally didn't have a palace anymore.

Demand Tribute

Assuming you have MPE or UN you will know before starting hostilities how much gold they have. Maybe they are affronted and declare war, but they may try to buy peace with you (even the Mongols). Do this every two turns as long as they are paying you and draw down their gold to below 1000.

If you are playing as Rep/Dem Gov't you will have to switch to a non-representative gov't. This is a strategic move as it will save you (time and units) from tracking down and killing successive Palaces. On the other hand, if you played as a celebrating Fundy Gov't you wouldn't need to worry about any peace-loving Senators. Just saying

.

Monk

Peaster · August 22, 2008, 20:26

A CFC player, URUWASHI, uses splits strategically. If he starts a game without a purple civ, he can usually force one into the game this way. I guess it is important for landing players to have a key civ. I'm not sure it is worth the trouble, though.

Salaambo · November 7, 2008, 16:54

For clarificaion, regardless of whether or not the AI Civ builds a palace somewhere else or not, there will still be a schism.

Are you sure that your enemy must be "stronger" than you? I thought schism will occur in any civ as long as

a) there is an open slot,

b) the civ is reasonably sized (i.e. they have at least 10 cities)

The real interesting question is does schism occur when a human player loses their capital in a multi-player game?

rjmatsleepers · November 8, 2008, 07:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Salaambo
For clarificaion, regardless of whether or not the AI Civ builds a palace somewhere else or not, there will still be a schism.

Are you sure that your enemy must be "stronger" than you? I thought schism will occur in any civ as long as

a) there is an open slot,

b) the civ is reasonably sized (i.e. they have at least 10 cities)

The real interesting question is does schism occur when a human player loses their capital in a multi-player game?

Conventional wisdom certainly says you have to be larger (not stronger unless I am misremembering). I rarely played a conquest game so I can't vouch for this from personal experience.

Similarly, I never played MP so I can't comment on what happens there.

RJM

Peaster · November 16, 2008, 18:03

I have probably played hundreds of conquest games, and have (almost) never seen a split, because I am always larger than the AI. So, I think size matters here.

Not sure about MP, but I doubt a split can occur (surely the designers saw the problems with that). I've played about 5 PBEMs, and I have never seen a split.

rjmatsleepers · November 17, 2008, 17:03

I mis-typed above.

Conventional wisdon says the AI has to be larger in order to split.

RJM

St Leo · December 13, 2008, 16:28

In my (distant) experience, the size of the attacker's civilization doesn't matter.

1. You have to take the capital while the AI still has lots of other cities. This is tricky, as capitals tend to be in the well-defended center. They are usually taken last, so splits are rare.

2. The AI has to be broke, so that they can't pay $1000 to move their palace.

3. There have to be fewer than 7 civilizations around. Again, by the time there are fewer than 7 civilizations, the capital is the best-defended part of an AI's realm.

An AI can split several times over if it's large enough and the new capital city is in striking range of your armies.

Oh, and an AI can split a different AI. I've played enough hands-off games as Barbarians to know that.:-)

Salaambo · December 15, 2008, 13:08

Quote:

You have to take the capital while the AI still has lots of other cities. This is tricky, as capitals tend to be in the well-defended center. They are usually taken last, so splits are rare.

Tricky? All you have to do is send a spy in with a nuclear device, or drop 7 or 8 cruise missiles and send a spy together with a riflemen through an enemies railroad system to walk into the capital.

It is comparitavely easy when compared to the pay-off.

A typical AI city will have maybe 4 defenders in the late stage of the game, where as the capital may have simply one more (total of 5) It is so worth using the additional couple of cruies missiles to capture the capital if it means the rival civ loses half of their cities instead of just 1.

Oh and the rival civ does not have to be broke, even if they pay to move their palace, the schism will still occur.